Trudy Gold
The Vatican and Escape Routes
Trudy Gold | The Vatican and Escape Routes | 06.15.21
- For those who are listening to us while we’re waiting, when David went to high school, I think he was 13 at the time, 12 or 13, there was a lot of anti-Semitism, or there was a lot of anti-Jewish remarks in a wonderful school, actually a very tolerant school, and the boys just weren’t sure how to respond. So, at that stage, I sat on the board of the Jewish Cultural Centre, I was working together with Trudy, which is a long, long time ago, so, Trudy came to give them history lessons. And then many of the parents liked the idea and sent their kids, well, David organised for the boys who were part of his gang. And then some of the girls came and they just started to disrupt the class. So, the boys weren’t happy about that. The girls were flirting with the boys and the boys wanted to learn about anti-Semitism.
It was such fun. But it worked, didn’t it? One of them actually wrote a book.
It did work, it was amazing.
You see for parents online that is the key.
It’s a huge impact.
We did it, Wendy, if you remember, it went on for about a year. And that was stamina, they had real stamina to do that.
It did, it did.
Going every week, wasn’t it? If you think about it.
Every week at my house and the kids very much looked forward to it. Zach, Zach Smith.
Yeah, it was Zach who wrote the book.
Yeah, Zach Smith, and David, and I’m just trying to think of the others.
Roy, Roy came and-
Roy Zabodavich, yeah.
And, oh, what was his name? The guy who became a surgeon. I saw some of them at Justine’s wedding. My boys, they were all grown up and it was really…
I’ve been able to defend Israel.
Exactly.
So, how are we doing for time now? Gosh, there a lot of people on. So, Trudy, I don’t want to take up any more time talking about my family. It’s not that interesting for anybody else.
It’s interesting for me though. Do you know, it’s melting in London today.
We have history. We have history. And just to say what’s hugely impactful as we said. It achieved the intended results. We got the results.
Yeah.
Education, education, education.
That’s the story. And I must say, Wendy, a lot of people mentioned, a lot of people have been in touch mentioning the film and those films do work. And I think it’s good to hand them over to the grandchildren and if they need more notes, we just have to think about how we do it. But I really think, I mean, there was a horrible anti-Semitic incident in London last night. It was actually flashed on the Evening Standard. A couple of men were beaten up outside of the kosher restaurant in Baker Street, but a Muslim went to their rescue.
Wow. Okay, well, that’s a wonderful story.
That is a good, so in the end-
That’s a good, I mean, one shouldn’t just be flippant about it. It’s shocking.
No, no, I mean-
That is shocking. But one can use something like that as a springboard to build bridges.
Exactly, ‘cause it’s about people. And what was also, but the CST announced this month, it’s the highest number of incidents since the records, since their records began. But I was encouraged by that. Somebody actually said. “No,” and stood up to them. So, that’s good. We just have to be positive, don’t we? What else can we do?
So, Trudy, what happened? How many people were beaten up and who came to the rescue?
There were two men coming out of the kosher restaurant in Baker Street, and they were attacked, and this Muslim intervened.
By one?
That’s all I know. That’s all I know. But it’ll be headlines. I’ll be able to tell you more later because it’ll be headlines in British newspapers. There’s been a lot about the situation. So, we just have to, yeah, we just have to hope. And no, not just hope, strong and educate.
Well, I think we need to capitalise on these incidents and see how we can work with them. So, I do think that one has to take these opportunities and run with it.
Exactly.
And work with them.
Yeah.
Okay, over to you.
All right, darling, God bless.
Thank you. Thanks, everybody and welcome.
Visuals displayed throughout the presentation.
- Well, good evening from London, a very, very, very hot London. And this evening I’m dealing with, again, a very controversial subject, I’m going to be dealing with the record of the wartime Pope and also about the ratline that was run by a man called Bishop Alois Hudal out of the Vatican. So, that’s the subject tonight. And I want to explain that I became very involved vicariously in this because, as I’m sure you know, Robert Wistrich was a very close friend of mine, and he was one of the six historians who was allowed into the Vatican to review the record of Pius XII, that was back in 1999. And in fact, they didn’t get very far. It’s still a very contentious issue.
So, let’s have a look at the wartime record. And I suppose the first point I want to make to you, do we expect a higher standard of morality from our religious leaders than we do from secular leaders? I think that’s the, I suppose that’s the first question that I want to pose you before we even get on. So, let’s have a look at the picture of the young Pius XII. His name was Eugenio Pacelli. He was born on the 2nd of March, 1876, and he dies in 1958. He was born into an intensely Catholic religious family. They had very, very strong links to the papacy. His grandfather was secretary of the interior under Pius IX. He was secretary of the interior between 1851 and 1870. And the grandfather had a huge impact on the family.
And I want to mention Pius IX to you because one of the interesting aspects of the Vatican is there is a constant tussle in the Vatican itself between the forces of liberalism and the forces of conservatism. And Pius IX was one of the most conservative popes that had ever sat on the papal throne. He helped find the Vatican newspaper, L'Osservatore Roma. He was the pope who was, think about the time he lived in. It’s the rise of liberalism. It’s the rise of communism, The things that he hated. Above all he wanted to keep the papacy strong. And the issue of the papacy, you see the pope isn’t just a religious leader, he’s also in control of secular states. And it was in Bologna that there were a couple of issues that really, really upset the Jewish world.
In 1858 during his pontificate, the Mortara affair. Young Mortara was a Jewish boy who was secretly baptised by his Catholic wet nurse. And the wet nurse then took him to the Jesuits and said, “This is a Catholic boy now, I baptised him.” And of course, the parents tried to get him back. And you can imagine the outcry, and the outcry became international. And Sir Moses Montefiore, the important English philanthropist, attempted to intervene. He went to Rome, but the Pope wouldn’t see him. He saw the secretary of state and they would not give the child back. And the secretary of state actually said to Montefiore, “How much money did the Rothchilds pay for the firman?” The firman was a declaration back in 1840.
There had been a horrific blood libel in Damascus and Montefiore again intervened. And it led to the Sultan of Turkey issuing a firman that the blood libel did not happen, it was a terrible calumny. But the question from the nuncio of foreign affairs was “How much did the Rothchilds pay?” Which gives you a notion of the attitude of that particular papacy, of what the Pacelli family were very attached to that particular papacy. He comes from an intensely Catholic, conservative family. His father was the dean of Sacra Rota Romani. His brother was the lay canon advisor to Pius IX. We know that he loved music. Can we go on and have a look at the next photo of him, if you don’t mind?
That’s him when he was ordained. He particularly adored Beethoven. He loved German music. He was also fascinated by the cult of the Virgin Mary. In fact, it was Pius IX who came up with the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. This is a 19th century doctrine that the Virgin Mary herself was born without sin. And this is very much the church trying to hold back the tide of modernity. And this was the world he was bought into. He studied, he was a clever man. He studied both philosophy and theology. He is ordained, and in 1901, he enters the secretariat. He’s 25 years old. He has a very, very good brain. He assists in the codification of canon law.
He becomes the Vatican’s representative on the commission, there’s an international commission on the Eucharist. The Eucharist of course, which is part of Catholic worship, it is when the wine and the wafer becomes the body and the blood of Christ during the Communion service. And it was really a seal of conservative popery. Anyway, he was also a very good diplomat. He spoke many languages and he represented the papacy at the coronation of George V. In 1914, war breaks out, and his role then was to maintain the Vatican’s registry of prisoners. You know, Catholics must have Catholic burials.
And in April, 1917, he is appointed the papal nuncio to Bavaria. And he’s going to be in Bavaria during the revolution. And those of you who have studied this period of history will know that revolutions occur in Germany, one after the other and the leadership of the three revolutions in Munich, the capital of Bavaria, are all led by Jews. And let me say, these Jews are internationalists. They have left their religion behind, they have thrown in their lot with communism. Religion is the opium of the people. And you see that’s another reason that Pacelli and the Catholic Church had problems with the Jews because they saw Jews as communists and dissenters. And he witnesses the revolution.
And this is the letter he writes. “The scene was indescribable. The confusion totally chaotic. In the middle of all this, the gang of young women of dubious appearance, Jews like the rest of them hanging around. The boss of this female rabble was Levine’s mistress.” Levine was, this is the second revolution he was in charge. “A young Russian woman, a Jew, and a divorcee, and it was to her that the nunciature,” that’s his office, “was obliged to pay homage in order to proceed. Levine was a young man, also Russian and a Jew, pale, dirty, and with drugged eyes, repulsive.”
Now, he also, he also very, this is where he develops his absolute horror for revolution and also his love for Germany. He leaves for a Swiss sanatorium run by nuns. Can we see the next picture, if you don’t mind, Judy? I’m afraid it’s a bit blurred. But the nun on the left is a woman called Sister Pascalina, who later became his, she’s a German nun, she became his close confidant through his whole life. She moved to Rome with him and was his housekeeper and probably the person he was closest to in this world. He returns to Munich following the defeat of the communists by the Freikorps, and of course, Germany was in an incredibly fragile state.
The communist revolution were put down by the Freikorps and Munich became the centre of the most right wing officer corps in the whole of Germany. And he writes a lot about his horror of communism. He says its aim is to destroy Christian civilization. He wrote this to the Vatican, “Munich is suffering,” this is what he wrote before the Freikorps revolution. “Munich is suffering under a harsh revolutionary tyranny, which is Jewish.” So, already he has problems with the Jews. 23rd of June, 1920, he’s appointed the nuncio of all Germany. It’s a real step up the ladder. Remember that Germany has a large Catholic percent. In fact, Germany’s more or less divided. It’s Catholic in the south, Protestant in the north. And the Catholic religion was very strong, particularly in Munich and in the south.
So, he’s appointed nuncio for for all Germany. In 1925, he moves to Berlin. And of course, Weimar Berlin was not a city that enchanted him. If you think about it, if you were avant-garde and you loved art and music and any kind of culture, but sharp edge, that was Munich in the '20s. He delivered speeches. Speeches to Catholic Germans. He very much mixed with the diplomatic elite. He’s a patrician. He was close to Von Hindenburg, Stresemann, other members of the cabinet, particularly Von Papen, who was a Catholic. And he supported German diplomatic activity in rejecting the Treaty of Versailles. He believed that Germany had been very badly treated and that what should happen is that the punitive Treaty of Versailles should be discarded.
Can we see the next? Yeah. This is when he goes back to Germany because he’s been appointed Cardinal secretary of state. And that is him returning back from Germany to Rome. He also, ironically, worked on establishing relations with the Soviet Union, because the Soviet Union, the communism he hated had become a power, so, he’s working on that. Okay. And it’s his job to negotiate concordats in a rapidly changing world. A concordat is an agreement where basically, the Catholic church makes an agreement with various states that the Catholic church would be left alone with various privileges. He negotiates a concordat in 1933 with Austria and in 1933 with Germany.
Can we see the next picture, please? He is now the secretary of state. And this is him, he’s actually presiding over the signing of a concordat with Nazi Germany. This is in July, 1933. And this of course, gives huge status to Adolf Hitler. Adolf Hitler is now in power. He’s well aware of Hitler’s anti-Semitic measures, and he gives him huge respectability when the Vatican signs the concordat. He also allowed Catholics in Germany to join the Nazi party. And he said Catholics can be Nazis. And in fact, dozens of Catholic priests do join the Nazi party.
Now, it’s at this stage that a nun called Edith Stein, Edith Stein was a fascinating woman. She was of Jewish birth, but she had become a nun. Tragically, later she is going to perish in Auschwitz. And that in itself led to huge controversy with the Catholic church later on because the Catholic church wanted to make her into a saint because she had died in Auschwitz at the hands of the Nazis. The point is, the reason she went to Auschwitz was because she had Jewish parents. So, that led to a real controversy between the Jewish community and the Catholics. Edith Stein wrote to him. She writes to him begging him to do something about the situation of the Jews.
And this is what she writes. “As a child of the Jewish people who has become by the grace of God a child of the Catholic church, I dare to express to the father of Christianity something which is tormenting many million Germans. There have been many suicides, many more victims. We fear the worst for the image of the church if it continues to remain silent.” So, basically, Pacelli doesn’t even answer her and he finalises the concordat. And he signs it, of course, with Von Papen. The honeymoon doesn’t actually last very long because of course, Hitler has what he wants. He’s got the deal. Because the deal was basically, in return for the Catholic church making no official announcements against Nazism, the Catholic church would be allowed to continue with its Jewish schools, its various youth groups, et cetera.
So, he does do this deal. And this deal was signed by Franz Von Papen. He’d been the vice chancellor. And of course that really, as I said before, and I cannot reiterate this too strongly, this really gives him the seal of diplomatic approval. And he, Pacelli, he’s not yet pope remember, he is the foreign secretary, he’s basically the foreign minister to the papacy. And what a terribly difficult time to be the foreign minister. He presides over a Eucharist conference in Buenos Aires in '34. He presides over a Eucharist conference in Budapest in 1938 when anti-Jewish laws were being formulated.
And basically, it’s important to remember that the Vatican was probably the most well-informed organisation in the whole of Europe. Why? Because just think how many priests, how many nuns, how many bishops were aware of what was going on country by country. At the conference in Budapest, and of course, Budapest had a semi-fascistic regime, he made references to Jews, I’m quoting, “Whose lips cursed Christ and whose hearts reject him every day.” And here we come to the nub of the problem with the Catholic church. One of the most difficult issues, and I think this is the problem that will dog Jewish-Christian relations, is the notion that Jews are responsible for the deicide.
If you want one factor that really led to all the horrors, it is this. Because once the Catholic church took power, if given power by whom, the Romans. If you think about it, it was in 325 at the Council of Nicaea, when the Emperor Constantine gives power to the church. The church is set up in Rome. And of course, popes are considered to be the heirs to St. Peter. And it’s at the first conference in 325 that you see the first anti-Jewish laws, and Christianity spreads like wildfire throughout Europe. In fact, the last country to be Christianized was Lithuania.
Now, if you think of the structure of mediaeval society and late mediaeval society, to belong to a guild, they were Christian guilds, to belong to any organisation were Christian guilds. And it was really, Jews had to find the niche for themselves. And that’s why they really do move into international trade and money lending. So, it’s the double stereotype. On one level, the Jew as the image of Christ killer and the Jew and money. So, you’ve got this double image, which is going to dog Jewish history right through to the Enlightenment. And as I discussed yesterday, it was the Enlightenment that really befuddled Jewish identity.
Anyway, however, Pacelli, he was no lover of Hitler. He did say to the US consul in Berlin, quote, “Hitler was untrustworthy person, and basically, he was a scoundrel.” He filed a report with Joseph Kennedy, who of course was ambassador to London, the Catholic anti-Semitic Joseph Kennedy, declaring and wanting him to inform Roosevelt that long term there could really be no compromise with the Nazis. Because even though, and I would suggest to you, there are anti-Jewish laws, and even though he’s making accommodation, the point about Pacelli, he was a wily diplomat. Anyway, to try and keep an even record, between 1933 and '39, he did issue 55 protests against the violation of the concordat when he believed the Nazis went too far in closing Catholic youth clubs, et cetera, et cetera.
So, we have to try and keep the record straight. So, Pius XI dies in 1939. He dies on February the 10th, 1939. And historians, they’ve had to look at why on Earth was this incredibly wily diplomat appointed pope? Who do you make Christ’s vicar on Earth? If you think about it, the choice was between a spiritual leader and a political leader. And Pacelli had become a very seasoned diplomat. He knew his way around Europe, he knew his way around all the power brokers of Europe, and in the end they decided that he should become the pope. And can we see a picture of the coronation, please?
That is, by the way, that’s Von Papen attending the Eucharist ceremony. And can we see the next picture? Because he had a very lavish coronation and he also made the decision to slowly erode the Roman curia of Italians. He appointed quite a few German and Dutch Jesuit advisors. He loved the way the Jesuits argued. You know, ironically, if you think about the great education in the Jewish world, it’s Talmudic, in the Catholic’s world, it’s Jesuitical. And I think the only difference is, of course, the Jesuits don’t marry.
Anyway, he also wanted to create reform in the Catholic church. The rediscovery of old liturgical traditions. When I say reform, he wants to reform it to make it more conservative. And he wanted to increase the Easter vigil. He wanted on one level to make the Catholic church strong against all the forces of the modern world. I think it’s fair to say that he didn’t approve of Nazism, he didn’t really approve of any politicalism. He certainly hated communism. But what he wanted was the power and the supremacy of the church. And in order to make more people comfortable within the Catholic church, he did do something that was progressive. He increased non-Latin services, especially in countries where he’s sending missionaries, particularly in places like South America.
He also added training of social services to priests because he realised that in a world that was becoming increasingly fractured, the way you get people to love the church, you look after the social welfare of people. And also, you train priests in sociology, in psychology so that they can really help their people. And he also, when priests were ordained, he expected the people to be really carefully vetted so that they were actually suited for a life of celibacy. He wanted to try and rid the church of sexual scandal. He also put a lot of emphasis on Christian martyrology and Christian heroism. He himself lived a very austere life.
And he said, “Priests should be an exemplar of the pure Christian life and the sacrifice that Jesus had made.” So, in a way, he’s very much a paternalist. He wants his flock, his children to understand the pure life through the example of priesthood as a buffer against the world that is becoming increasingly dark. And also later on, as I said, the Cult of the Virgin and he introduces something called the adoption of the assumption. Anyway, he’s pope during the war, and this is where we have the serious problem with his record. And it begins in Poland because Poland is a Catholic country. And if you think about the attitude of the Nazis to the Poles, the Poles were Slavs. The Poles therefore, as far as Nazi race theory was concerned were untermenschen, and they murdered over 2,500 Polish priests in the first few weeks of the war and sent many of them to concentration camps.
These were pious people who did speak out. And in the priest block in Dachau, over 3,000 people were held. This was specifically for priests. He refused to censure the German invasion and the annexation of Poland. It was regarded as a total betrayal by Catholics. And he doesn’t censure the Nazis for doing this. And also, he didn’t object to the Volksdeutsche coming into Poland and taking over the property of Poles. Many of them were Catholic. He decided to keep the church out of it. And even though he received more and more reports of the atrocities against Catholics.
Now, these are sometimes perpetrated by Catholics against Catholics, because don’t forget, a lot of Catholics were members of the SS. Yes, Hitler and his inner circle were pagan, but many of the people who worked for him were Catholic. Just as in the Protestant church in Germany. There was a third of the Protestant church was dissenting, but there was a man called Reichs Pastor Muller, who wore the swastika on his vestments and he saw himself in the image of Luther. And of course, as you know, Luther was an appalling anti-Semite. And he had a following of over a million people.
So, it’s Catholics and Protestants who are joining the SS. And there are those who criticised the pope and said that if he’d spoken out against Nazism, just maybe it would have stopped certain people. And we do know that many nuns and priests did save Jews and save other people as well, but they did it without the will of the church. You will remember perhaps, that when I was talking about Poland and I was talking about Vilnius and Abba Kovner, you may remember that they were hidden in a convent.
Now, the nuns who hid them actually had gone to the local Catholic bishop in Vilnius to ask for his advice, and he told them not to. And who knows what would’ve happened if the Catholic church had actually issued an encyclical saying this is what we need to do. So, who knows what could’ve happened. You see, what he tries to do is to have a policy of public neutrality, which was exactly the policy that was kept going by his predecessor in the First World War. He did set up information offices for prisoners of war, just as had happened in the First World War, because he wanted to have lists of any Catholic that had been captured by either side, so that he could keep a track on Catholics.
Another thing he did though, in April, 1939, which caused a lot of controversy, his predecessors had banned Action Francaise. Those of you who know French history will know that Action Francaise was a very right wing, fascist, anti-Semitic organisation, anti-Semitic and anti-communist. And the clue is actually that I think it’s because it’s anti-communist. So, he actually allowed it to, he basically, he sanctioned it. However, that same year, he appointed a Jewish cartographer in Rome, a man called Roberto Almagia to the Vatican. He’d been at the University of Rome since 1915, but had been dismissed under Mussolini’s anti-Jewish laws.
But he brings him into the Vatican. He also appointed two Jews to the Vatican’s Academy of Science, which made them safe. 26th of December, 1939, though, he condemned the Soviet Union’s attack on Finland. He would always oppose communism. On the 18th of January, 1940, after over 18,000 Poles had been killed, he said in a radio broadcast, “The horror and inexcusable excesses on a helpless and homeless people have been established by the unimpeachable testimony of eyewitnesses.” And in his first encyclical, he does at this stage, condemn the partition of Poland during the Soviet-Nazi Pact.
And he says this, “The blood of countless human beings, even non-combatants, raised piteous dirge over a nation such as Poland, which for its fidelity to the church, for its services in the defence of Christian civilization,” et cetera, et cetera. And after Germany invaded the low countries, he did send letters of sympathy to the queen of the Netherlands, the king of the Belgians, remember, the Belgians are Catholic, and to the Grand Duke of Luxembourg, actually expressing horror. And it’s at this stage that Mussolini actually sends a complaint to the Vatican telling the pope not to intervene.
So, on one level, he’s trying to hold a very, very even line. And the question will always be, did he go too far one way or the other? And I should have mentioned at the beginning, it really came to controversy when there was a move to beatify him. In the Catholic church, the greatest thing that can happen to a person is they are awarded sainthood. To become a saint, you have to go before an advocate who is known as the devil’s advocate. Can you imagine having that as your job title, devil’s advocate? And that man will actually examine your life’s work.
Remember, he dies in 1958. And the devil’s advocate will then recommend that he be beatified and sent for canonization. And it was this that led to Robert Wistrich and other historians going into the Vatican because the Jewish world protested. They said, this man never really spoke out against us. Now, let’s talk about the Shoah. I’m trying to give you as much balance as possible.
During the war itself, he was absolutely inundated with pleas for help. In the spring of 1940, the chief rabbi of Palestine asked the papal secretary of state actually to beg the pope to intervene to keep Jews in Spain from being deported to Germany, Catholic Spain. He later made similar requests for Jews in Lithuania. Within the church, Cardinal Theodore Innitzer of Vienna told Pius XII about the deportations in 1941. In 1942, the Slovakian charges d'affaires reported to Rome that Slovakian Jews were being deported. And please don’t forget that the head of, we covered this, that the head of Slovakia was in fact Tiso, who was a Catholic. And he was the one who was paying the Germans to deport the Jews.
Late August, 1942, after more than 200,000 Jews have been killed, the Ukrainian Metropolitan wrote a long letter referring to the pope saying, quote, “The German terror is more diabolical than that of the Soviets.” And the pope replied, quoting ironically, the Jewish Psalms. “Bear adversity with serene patience.” Now, September the 18th, 1942, Montini, who was the future Pope Paul VI, a wonderful man, “The massacres of the Jews reach frightening proportions and forms.”
That month, same month, Myron Taylor, who was the American representative for the Vatican, wrote to the pope that his silence was endangering his moral prestige. And the secretary of state writes back saying, “It is impossible to verify these reports.” The president of the Polish delegation to the Vatican, remember the Polish government is in London. They are the ones who alert the world to what’s going on. They appealed to the pope in January, 1943 to denounce the Nazis. And Bishop Preysing, an incredibly brave man, bishop in Berlin, he asked Pius XII to do exactly the same. December the 17th, '42, the Allied declaration that you all know about, the pope refused to issue a similar proclamation. He said the papacy was unwilling to publicly denounce particular atrocities. He said, “The pope cannot denounce Nazism without also denouncing communism.”
And remember now, the Allies are now with the Russians. So, he would only condemn in general. So, he did speak generally, but in a broadcast, he said, “The Vatican has a policy of neutrality.” In France, in March '41, Marshal Petain asked, and remember, France is Catholic, asked if the Vatican would object to anti-Jewish laws. Pius XII replies, “The church condemns racism, but does not repute every rule against the Jews.” When Petain’s government introduced statutes, the Vichy ambassador informed Petain that the Vatican did not consider the legislation in conflict with Catholic teachings. And it’s important to remember that the Vatican was amongst one of the most well-informed, and I can cannot overestimate this point, it was one of the most informed organisations in Europe.
Anyway, by March '44, it’s an open secret. And the papal nuncio in Budapest, Rotta, advises the Hungarian government to be lenient. And it’s at this stage that the pope does make a declaration. Why on Earth does he do this? It’s because the war, in my view, the war is coming to an end and he realises that he’s got to make some sort of declaration. He also answered a request to save 6,000 Jewish children, but he did say that does not mean that the Catholic church supports Zionists. On the contrary, the Catholic church was anti-Zionist because why should the Jews, of course, have Jerusalem and the Holy Land? And it must be said, the Jews were, the Pope was not, he’s more prepared to help baptise Jews than to help Jews.
In “Hitler’s Pope” by John Cornwell, he actually argues that Pius XII was an anti-Semite. Robert Wistrich argues that he was only an anti-Semite insofar as he believed in the deicide. Defenders of the Pope point to the fact that both Pinchas Lapide and Golda Meir praise him for his efforts. Because certainly, when the Germans enter Rome, and if we turn to the next, can we see the next slide, Judy, if you don’t mind?
That is the pope blessing the crowd after the bombing of Rome, which to him was a most terrible tragedy. Of course, the Roman Jews were attacked and they had to raise a ransom and the Pope did offer a certain amount of money. So, the record isn’t completely black. In fact, it’s the post-war record that’s also a problem. Because many Jewish children had been hidden in monasteries and in convents. Now, the best way to hide a child was to teach them the catechism and to make them into Catholics. Now, what happened when families survived, members of families survived and tried to claim their children back? Tragically, the papacy made it very difficult for these children to be returned.
And also the Pope did use his influence with South American countries around the time of the partition agreement. The papacy was against the partition of Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab state. He was above all, wanting Jerusalem to be an international city. Now, we come to probably the toughest part of it all, and that is the story of Alois Hudal and the ratline. And of course, we’ve already had… Can we see the next slide?
We’ve already had an extraordinary lecture from Philippe Sands. He has written a brilliant book about the ratline. Let me introduce you to Alois Hudal. The ratline was an escape route for Nazis out of the Vatican. Was the pope complicit? There is no direct evidence that Pius XII was complicit in this. But what is true is that this man was behind it. So, who was Alois Hudal?
He is the man who saved people like Eichmann, Franz Stangl, Wachter, who of course, Philippe Sands writes about, Wagner. I’m talking about Stangl, who was commandant of both Sobibor and Treblinka. Wagner was his deputy. Eichmann was the bureaucrat who masterminded the Final Solution. I’m not talking about German officers here, I am talking about some of the most revolting war criminals in the history of mankind and they are going to be saved by a bishop in Rome, an Austrian bishop. So, who is this man?
He’s the son of a shoemaker in Graz. He studied theology, came from a very poor background. He was incredibly bright, Catholic family, Austrian, of course. He was ordained in July, 1908, and he became a specialist on the liturgy of the Slavic-speaking eastern church. His dream was to bring together, to unify the Catholic church with the eastern church. He was a very charismatic figure. He did his doctorate in theology. He attended courses on the Hebrew Bible. He was a military chaplain and he published a book for servicemen in the First World War. Of course, he is Austrian, so he’s on the side of the Habsburgs. And the book’s title, “Loyalty to the Flag is Loyalty to God.”
In 1923, he became the rector of the German College, which was a seminary for German and Austrian priests in Rome. And he became a consultant to the Holy See. He was introduced by Austrian diplomats to Pius XI in 1922. And he became the main Austrian bishop in the world of the Vatican. He’s ordained a bishop in 1933 by Pacelli, who later becomes, remember, he’s the foreign minister, the papal nuncio before he becomes pope in 1939. And from 1933 onwards, Hudal, the Austrian bishop working in Rome, publicly endorses National Socialism.
He said he wanted to be, and I’m quoting, “The servant and herald of a totally Germanic cause.” His invective against the Jews becomes more and more ghastly. He writes this, “The Semitic race, which sets itself apart to dominate with the notorious movements of democracy, internationalism, and the alleged conspiracy to become financial masters of the Eternal City.” He actually believed the Jews were conspiring to take over the finances of the Vatican. You can see from that he’s a committed anti-Semite. He’s a committed anti-communist. He’s a committed anti-liberal. You see, this was the problem.
For people who didn’t see Jews as individuals, all Jews are communists, all Jews are capitalists, all Jews are everything you don’t want to be. Because at this period of history, the '30s, it was such a time of total insecurity it was easy to find a scapegoat. David was talking about that on Sunday with Dennis. Find the scapegoat. And I think the problem is the Jew, because of our rather strange place in the world of monotheism, we are the perfect scapegoat.
Even before the rise of Nazism, he was always critical of parliamentary democracy. He wanted really clerical fascism. He wanted a authoritarian government, which was allied to the church. He wanted a strong Austrian-German shield to protect Europe from the fear of communism. So, in 1937, he actually published a book, “The Foundations of National Socialism,” which was an endorsement of Adolf Hitler. He sent Hitler a copy. He praises him as the new Siegfried and the harbinger of Germany’s greatness. But he was critical of some of the Nazi ideologists, particularly Rosenberg.
Now, one of Hitler’s main ideologists, Rosenberg, was a pagan. So, you have the clash between the ideas of Alois Hudal and the ideas of Rosenberg who want to go back to the dream of the Teutonic gods, et cetera, et cetera. Anyway, under him and under Pius XII, “Mein Kampf” was never, ever put on the papal index. Okay, he was particularly close to Von Papen. He supported in Germany the segregation of the Jews. His views even went too far, even for Pius XII. And he had gradually his influence with the pope did waiver. That is why the majority of historians do not believe that he was part of the ratline. He was very close to the chief of German intelligence, Walter Rauff, who after the war was hidden by Hudal.
And so, after the war, the Allies actually, he also had a professorship at Graz and the Allies make him give it up. But he appealed on a technicality and he was actually reinstated as a professor at the university in 1947. And it was he, through the Vatican, organised the ratlines. These are the escape of Nazis to South America and to the Arab countries. So, I’ve already mentioned Stangl to you. Roschmann, who’s known as the Butcher of Riga. Mengele, the Angel of Death. The doctor who conducted those appalling experiments at Auschwitz. Alois Brunner, who organised the deportations from France and Slovakia. Otto Wachter, who was head of the Krakow ghetto, he actually hid him in Rome in the Anima. He hid him in the grounds and he lived as a monk. He actually requested 5,000 visas from Juan Peron to allow the ratline to happen. 3,000 for Germans, and 2,000 for Austrians. He provided them with Red Cross passports. Anti-communist fighters whose war time sacrifice saved Europe from socialist domination.
Now, he later said, he was never repentant. He said, “We do not believe in the eye-for-an-eye of the Jew.” And he, you know, when Eva Peron went to visit the pope in Rome, it was actually about money because the ratline provided money to the Argentinian regime to basically funnel all these Nazis into South America. And as I said, also into the Arab countries. And that’s a fascinating story. which I’ll be telling later on, because many of those after Nasser came to power in Egypt, many of the, and one of his main advisors was Hajj Amin al-Husayni, the Mufti of Jerusalem, and many of these characters actually finished up in Egypt and in Syria. Think of United Arab Republic working for the Egyptians in their war against Israel.
This is what he said, “The Allied war against the Germans was not a crusade, but the rivalry of economic complexes for whose victory they’d been fighting. This so-called business used catch words like democracy, race, religious liberty, and Christianity as a bait for the masses. All these experiences, the reason I felt duty bound after 1945 to devote my whole charitable work mainly to German National Socialists and fascists, especially the so-called war criminals.”
There was such a scandal, he was finally removed from his post in 1952 and he finished his life near Rome. So, he died in his bed. What can I tell you. The ratline out of the Vatican, Catholic priests allowing the escape of characters like Eichmann. Now, let’s be careful here, there is no proof that the pope knew about it. I think the main criticism of the pope is that, you know, having tried to wend my way through all the various books and people get very, very, very heated up about this. And of course it came to a head when they tried to sanctify Pius XII. I think the point was, I think he learnt, he was incredibly conservative. He came from a conservative family. Was he a Jew hater? Well, then again, you’re back to the whole notion of the deicide, aren’t you? And certainly he didn’t, if he’d made a public statement, who knows what would’ve happened.
But those who defend him say that if he made a public statement, it would’ve made matters worse for Catholics living under the Nazis. I think though, when we come to a character like Alois Hudal, how he can reconcile his Christianity and his “piety” in inverted commas, with getting out of Europe some of the most notorious people that ever walked the world. I mean, I am completely stupefied by that. And he died unrepentant. So, a lot of information, and we will be going back to some of this because I do want, as I go forward, I do want to lo look at what happened to some of these characters when they made it to South America. But it’s interesting, isn’t it? Eva Peron, Evita, she was up, you know, they were up to their neck with Nazis. What can I tell you, Wendy? Anyway-
Trudy?
Yeah?
Trudy, thank you very much for an outstanding presentation. I just wanted to ask you, how is it possible the pope did not know?
Well, he did know. There’s no question of it. But think about it. He had the best intelligence service in Europe.
Of course.
Think of every village, every town there was a priest. And like, I’ve mentioned quite a few priests who did stand out and say, “This is what was happening.” And you know, historians have said, if he’d made that statement, a lot more monks and nuns and Catholics would’ve saved Jews. In fact, those who did save were, you know, were even more brave, really.
No, I’m referring to the ratline. How would he not know about? You said there’s no-
Well, because Vatican is labyrinthal. I remember when Robert Wistrich went there with the five other historians. You know, he found it difficult. He said, “You’ve got to understand, it’s a Byzantinian institution.” Did the pope know about the ratlines? There’s no proven line, that’s the point, Wendy. So, I cannot say he did. Do I speculate that he probably did? I think it’s quite likely, but you cannot prove it. That’s the point. But certainly the whole notion of sanctify him. Look, the church is always in conflict between liberalism and conservatism. And when the church feels threatened, it becomes very, very conservative. We have a relatively liberal pope at the moment. Think of what he’s trying to do about the sex scandals. You’ve had some extraordinary popes. I mean the pope-
Is that liberal? Is that liberal?
Well, compared with the pope-
Or integrity?
I think the point is, Wendy, it depends what you’re comparing it with. And one of the problems, I mean, I think as Jews we find it very difficult because we’re not, I think we’re not people who, we don’t really do hierarchy well. Theologically, the pope is God’s representative on Earth. There is a line in the New Testament where Jesus, he puts his hands on Peter’s shoulder and he said, “Thou art Petros.” Peter means Petros, which means rock. “And upon this rock will I build my church.” And Peter is martyred in Rome. And the Catholic church is very much built along the lines of the Roman Empire. And even when the Roman Empire falls, the Catholic church becomes stronger and stronger and stronger. So, it’s an extraordinary institution. But there is something I will tell you, and maybe in the summer we should divert into it. There were three popes who were born Jewish, ironically. Three mediaeval popes who were born Jews. Which is another story altogether.
Yeah, go on.
Should we have a look at some of the questions?
Q&A and Comments
Trudy, I just also want to just mention, I’m putting my neck on the line by saying this, but the Catholic church created the safe haven for dysfunctionals and personality disorders and paedophiles.
Yes.
And that was a perfect, perfect, you know, cast for it.
You see, you’ve also got to remember that people gave their whole faith to it. And it’s actually very, very tragic.
And they finance it.
Oh, it’s a huge financial institution. But if you think about ordinary, pious people and when the pope issues an encyclical, like for example on birth control. You know, the fact that birth control for so many centuries was a sin. The misery that caused for so many people, it’s beyond calculation. Anyway, look, belief systems, people do seem to need them. Let’s see what this-
So just to come full circle. I want to close the circle that you started.
Yes.
Of course, there was a very strong network of the pope knowing exactly what was going on. Because as you said, he had all his, you know, his henchman and you know, leaders beneath him. Reporting back to him.
Mm hmm, oh yeah.
And people followed. People are sheep. People will follow the leadership. So, had he given a different command, there would’ve been a different, it would’ve been a-
Completely. I totally agree. I totally agree. If he’d given a command. Did he know about the, I mean, I find the ratline absolutely extraordinary that out of the Vatican with Red Cross passes, 9,000 Nazis got out that way. 9,000 they were given-
That was orchestrated.
Yeah, Odessa existed. It’s not the fantasy of Frederick Forsyth. It really existed. And it was this escape route to South America where, I mean, some of them like Stangl, they lived openly. You know, he had a Bavarian-style house in San Paulo. They always had their reunions on Hitler’s birthday. That’s how they lived.
'Cause they said it was endorsed.
Yeah, it was endorsed. So, it’s a very dark world.
Now, people are talking about what happened in London, a human story, a good Samaritan, telling us more. And Sheila Shides is saying, “The Jews were attacked by two hooded, masked attackers. One man also a Muslim, came to the men’s defence. The community should act to thank and support the good Samaritan, who may be ostracised by his own community.”
Absolutely. And maybe not. He may be embraced.
Well, this is what is interesting.
Empower him, empower that man to galvanise support from his own community.
I agree, and this is what Claire Johnson says, “Unlikely to be ostracised in Baker Street, where,” she’s pointing out, this is rather funny. She’s pointing out that the owners are both Muslim and Jewish. Let’s see.
This is from Mike, “In a now supposedly secular Quebec, a major street in Montreal is Pius IX, named in honour of the pope who supported the kidnapping of a Jewish boy.” Yes, you see, this the problem, Michael. Don’t get me onto the subject of statues. There is a statue of Richard I in British Parliament. In his reign, you had the most terrible pogrom in Jewish history. In Jewish history in England, I should say. I mean the statues of Petliura. Petliura is a national hero of the Ukraine. They issue stamps. is a hero. Jewish history is always inside out.
I want to say, I’m sorry, I just want to step in there. I want to say now is the opportunity to act on that because governments are listening. So, if the Canadians on this call are prepared to take up the cause, I’m quite sure that your prime minister will hear it.
I think that’s very interesting, because should there be a statue of a man who endorsed the kidnapping of a Jewish boy? Michael’s asked about, can I elaborate on the revolutions in Bavaria and the role of the Jews? The problem is Michael, I have lectured on it at some length. But I will be referring to it back when I look at Jews and communism.
This is from Julius. “I knew the niece by marriage of Edith Stein. She was at the ceremony where Edith was made a saint. The Pope said a special Hebrew blessing. What pope was it?” That would’ve been Pius XI.
“Edith Stein is canonised,” this is from Irma, “in the Stella Maris Church on Mount Carmel in Haifa.” It’s tragic really, isn’t it? She died because she had Jewish parents.
This is from Nicholas Springer. “In the 16th century, the diamond dealers in Amsterdam wanted to form a guild. The then mayor refused because it would cut out the Jews.” Yes, Holland was a very interesting, pragmatic Holland was very, very interesting.
“The church spoke out against the euthanasia programme in Germany.” Yes, eventually they did.
Q: “Would you say the Catholic church took on the role vacated by the collapsed Roman Empire? I ask this because the original church was actually composed of Jews based in Jerusalem and there is no hint in the New Testament that the church was to be an organisation endowed with worldly power.” A: John, that is an incredibly interesting and complex question that would take hours to debate.
Won’t you repeat that, please. No, Trudy, won’t you please repeat that slowly.
“Would you say that the Catholic church took on the role vacated by the collapsed Roman Empire? I ask this because the original church was actually composed of Jews based in Jerusalem and there’s no hint in the New Testament that the church was to be an organisation endowed with wealthy power.” You see, this is where you come to one of the problems. I think, Wendy, maybe in the summer I should actually look at the origins of Christianity out of Judaism.
Well, Trudy, yeah, I think that’s a very interesting question.
It is a very interesting question.
Now, this is from Josephine. “A Hungarian friend who survived Auschwitz, told us the story of her first day at school. She was the only Jewish child. At the end of the first day at school, all the other children went to the priest’s house for their Catholic teaching. Our friend was waiting outside to play with them and when they came out, they threw stones at her shouting, 'You killed Jesus Christ.’ She ran home crying and asked her parents, ‘Who is Jesus?’”
This is from John.
Q: “If he really didn’t agree with Nazism, couldn’t he have called on the faithful to rise up against it?” A: He was a diplomat. How many divisions did he have? You know, this is the other point. He had to play the game.
“Books recommended?” “Hitler’s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII” by John Cornwell. Anna, that is very anti-pope. There are others that are more pro. In order to get a picture, you have to read three or four books.
Now, this is Anna again. “In historian Paul Johnson’s book, ‘A History of Christianity,’ at no point were Catholics given either by their own hierarchy or by Rome, relaxation of their moral obligation to obey the legitimate authority of the Nazi rulers.” No, that’s not quite true, Anna, I’m afraid. No.
This is… “John Lafarge, an American Jesuit at Fordham was appointed to prepare an encyclical clarifying the truth of the alleged deicide. It was prepared very carefully by Lafarge who travelled to Europe, who presented it to Pius. Mysteriously its release was delayed until after the outbreak of war. Could its timely publication have changed the course of history?” Look, the deicide. Have I got time to answer this, Wendy? I think I better, okay. As a historian, what I’ve got to say to you is where is the evidence? In order to look at the deicide, you have to ask quite a few important questions. Where do we get our evidence? The Gospels mean good news. The first Gospel is written 40 years after his death. The last 120 years after Jesus’ death. There’s very few, little cross referencing to any of the Jewish sources or to the Roman sources. What I can tell you is crucifixion is a Roman method of execution. I suggest you read Hyam Maccoby on this. And do you really think you can change 2,000 years of history? That’s the problem. It doesn’t matter whether it’s true or false because people believe it.
Q: “Did he ever meet with the Mufti?” A: As far as I know, no.
“I hope you cover the Catholic rhetoric in America prior and during Father Coughlin.” Yes, I have referred to Father Coughlin and later we will be doing a lot of in depth on America. Yes.
This is from Monty. “We now live in a Disneyland of hate in Britain.”
Claire. “How could he say the Roman Catholic church had a policy of neutrality?”
This is from Monty, “See a Polish film called "Ida.”
This is from Claire Johnson. “Von Wachter’s daughter, Heidi, is married to my uncle. I found it very hard to listen and read the ratline for obvious reasons. I don’t know her or my uncle or my her family due to family fall out.” Claire, I must tell you that Philippe Sands is going to be coming in in the late summer. Wendy and I have sorted this out and he’s going to be talking to Nicholas Frank. Nicholas Frank is the son of Hans Frank, who was the governor of Poland. And I think you’re going to find that a fascinating subject because it’s something we haven’t talked about. But how do the children and grandchildren of perpetrators deal?
“Wherever you look the Shoah was a catastrophic failure of moral clarity.” Yes. Yes. Completely. What do we expect? Do we expect, I suppose that’s a question for all of you. Do we expect a higher standard of morality from church leaders, any religious leaders than we do for other people?
This is from David. “Have you considered the pressure that during the war Pius XII must have been conscious of being under as a result of Italy being in the control of Mussolini, on whom he was effectively reliant for the continued survival of the Vatican as a sovereign territory?” Yes, David, that’s a very important point. He is the master of diplomacy.
This is from Romi saying, “Make more videos.” We have three that are about to go into the can, Romi, including one on the Vatican. I’ve just got to find the time to make them. They’re written, yeah. And again, bless the Kirsh Foundation for this.
“In South Africa, misinformation is becoming rife.” Misinformation is rife everywhere.
Q: “Was Nazi money also funnelled into the Catholic church?” A: I don’t know. I don’t know that. It would’ve been funnelled into the ratline, but that’s not the Catholic church. Rod is saying-
So, what do you mean? So, what do you mean, Trudy?
Well, the money for the ratline to get the Nazis out came from Nazi gold. And much of that Nazi gold was also in Switzerland. That’s another story that we haven’t even come onto yet, Wendy.
So, let’s make a note of that. Because what does that mean? Nazi gold. Came from Nazi gold.
Well, where do you think the Nazi gold came from? Just think about, this is where the story gets appalling. Just think of all the looted property.
Right.
Jews were not just murdered they were robbed. If you think, remember Eichmann set up a bureau in Vienna, an immigration bureau in Vienna in ‘38, at the end of '38. And in Berlin at the end of '39. Jews had all their property taken away from them. Just think of the great art collections, where even today much of that art has not been returned to heirs. It was the art, but it was also the gold. And also even in the camps, the gold teeth, the possessions, so much of it was looted Jewish money. And the awful thing that happened, those Jews who had accounts in Switzerland, and their heirs found it very difficult to get the money back from the bankers. So, the Nazis, look, they pillaged Europe. It wasn’t just the Jews.
You know, in Krakow for example, Frank tells the story that, you know, Nicholas Frank tells the story of the wonderful paintings that his father stole. You know, money was taken. They were thieves. The Nazis weren’t just murderers, they were also thieves. So, there is meant to be Nazi deposits hidden all over Austria and Germany. I’m sure you’ve read some of the stories of the hunt for Nazi gold. And this organisation, Odessa had huge amounts of cash. They got a lot of it to South America. They set up the infrastructure.
And ironically, many of the German scientists later on went to work for NASA. They worked on, believe it or not, and this is going to, they worked on weapons to fire on the Jewish state. Terrible stories. But on the other hand, there’s a very triumphant story because there was a very interesting Mossad spy called Wolfgang Lotz who saved them. And it’s an incredible, so there’s some good stories as well, Wendy. It almost seems like I’m going into the realm of fiction when I tell the story of the ratline, doesn’t it? But it’s very well documented. It seems almost impossible, doesn’t it? This collusion between members of the Vatican and the Red Cross. And please don’t forget the collusion of high-ranking members of the Swedish government, the Swiss government.
So, what would’ve motivated the Red Cross and the Vatican to that way?
Well, the Red Cross, I don’t know how complicit the Red Cross were, but certainly they issued passports at the request of the Vatican, the request of Alois Hudal. And Red passport is what got 9,000 Nazis out to South America.
So, what would’ve motivated the Vatican to do that?
Well, Alois Hudal was an ardent supporter, no question of it. I mean, you know, he wrote a book in honour of Hitler. He was a Nazi.
So, now, I’m alluding to the fact that they were paid.
Alois Hudal, I don’t know if he, I think he would’ve been a very rich man, but he didn’t do it for venality. He did it because he believed. These people were Catholic. You know, it’s fascinating when you think about it. Eichmann was a Catholic. Stangl, the commandant of Sobibor and Treblinka. Do you know how many people died there? I mean, I’ve been to these places. They’re the end of the world.
So, are you saying that he supported these people because they were fellow Catholics?
Well, yes I did. They were also Austrian. But he had no, he was an anti-Semite. Of course, he knew what some of them had done. Did he know the details? He got Eichmann out. And it wasn’t too difficult to get out. Do you remember a few weeks ago I talked about DIN, that Jewish organisation that stayed behind in Europe after the war to take justice or revenge, whatever way you want to look at it. You know, the majority of Nazi war criminals were never brought to justice. We’ve looked at the Nuremberg war crimes trials, but also think of the cynicism of governments.
Wernher von Braun, who became head of the American space programme, he’d worked on the V2 rockets. He was a member of the Nazi party. A lot of the scientists were taken by the Russians, the Americans. When you look at the CIA, used ex-Nazis. So did the, certainly the East German Stasi and the West Germans. You see, the problem was at the end of the war, and I’ll be talking about this in the next few weeks, in order, the Cold War. And they did not. They couldn’t de-Nazify Germany because they needed low level Nazis to run the country. Even people who implemented the Final Solution, a couple of them died in their beds on SS pensions. SS pensions were paid.
So, if you’re looking for justice, you don’t find much of it. And you know, I’m speaking very personally here, but I think that’s got a lot to do with Israel’s attitude to the world. Now, what we do with that is our business. But I really think that, you know, when the Jews were powerless, remember that speech yesterday from Ben-Gurion? You know, what he was saying is in the end the Jews had no power. They had no state of their own. They had no army to defend them. And when they relied on the largesse of strangers, there weren’t many people who came forward to help them. Were there?
Right.
And I think that’s one of the tragedies. And I believe that’s marked our identity. You know, it’s so complex. Jewish history, well, let’s go back to that lovely quotation of of Elias Canetti. “There are no people more difficult to understand than the Jews.” And I think also, if you think of the kind of prominence we get, why is that? I think it’s because we are so central to both Christianity and to Islam. Anyway, it certainly opens the debate, doesn’t it, Wendy?
It does. It does. And I think on that note, we’re going to have to close, Trudy.
Yes, of course.
Thank you very much.
Thank you, darling and be safe everyone. God bless.
Thank you very much. Thanks everyone for joining us. Thanks Trudy, take care.
Bye.
Bye.