Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis
A Judaism of Responsibility: In Conversation With Chief Rabbi Mirvis
Chief Rabbi of the UK Ephraim Mirvis - A Judaism of Responsibility: In Conversation With Chief Rabbi Mirvis
- Good evening, everybody, from Paris. I would just like to say welcome to all our participants and a very, very warm welcome to Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis. It is our great pleasure to have him on Lockdown University tonight. Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis is the Chief Rabbi of the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth, born and raised in South Africa. He studied in Yeshiva in Israel and has previously served as Chief Rabbi of Ireland and Rabbi of the Marble Arch and Finchley Synagogue in London. As Chief Rabbi, he’s a primary representative of the Jewish community to government and other faiths and civil society. Now, in his ninth year in office, he’s well known as a principal spiritual leader who has strengthened Jewish community life and broken a new ground in the areas of education, interfaith, and social responsibility. Thank you for joining us tonight. We are so looking forward to your presentation on Judaism and the responsibility, and I know that you’re going to be in conversation with Carly, so I’m going to hand over to you. Thanks very much.
Thank you very much, Wendy. So, Chief Rabbi, it’s a particular pleasure of mine when I get to spend time with old friends. And so, you know, I’m very grateful that you’ve joined us today, especially since it gives me a touch of home and nostalgia. So I think we’re going to have a conversation today about some of the more unexpected focuses that you’ve had over the last nine years, and give people a bit of a glimpse into what you often call a Judaism of responsibility. So, I wanted to get started. You have recently returned from Glasgow, and whilst you were there, I’m sure you saw the Glasgow Jewish community. I’m sure you visited the students. But your main focus for being there was to be at COP and to really engage around climate change. Now, people may be surprised that of all of the conferences you chose to go to, and of all of the places you were invited to be, that COP was actually where you found yourself in recent weeks. So how does the Chief Rabbi end up at COP?
So first of all, Carly, so lovely to have this opportunity to have this conversation with you. Also, thank you so much to you, Wendy, for your very kind and warm words of introduction. And congratulations to everyone responsible for Lockdown University, which is a truly remarkable initiative, and it’s my enormous pleasure to participate this evening. A faith leader has a natural place in a global conference relating to climate change, and that is because all world faiths must be responsible with regard to our planet. And indeed, speaking about Judaism, it is a core element of our faith that we have a responsibility to look after the world that God has given to us to be the caretakers of. So therefore, all the elements of COP26 come right to the heart of what it means to be a responsible Jew today.
And you know, there’s a lot of pressing issues facing the Jewish world, be it antisemitism, be it poverty in our own community or others, be it education. The community, you could say, has finite resources. Why do you think this is an obligation that needs to be right up there alongside some of those I’ve named? And what does Jewish values have to say about what we should be doing on climate change?
So yes, you’ve mentioned some of the top priorities of Jewish communities today, and there are many more. And our engagement at COP26 and our responsibility relating to the environment does not take the place of any other responsibility, but is in addition to them, and certainly must be a top priority for us, and faith leaders have a responsibility to lead to the way. You know, there is one verse in the Bible which tells us . The Earth belongs to God. And then there’s another verse. The Heavens are the Heavens of God and the Earth He has given to people. So how is it possible that on the one hand, the Earth belongs to God and on the other hand, he has given it to people? The only way to explain it is that God has empowered us to have the responsibility to be the guardians of his Earth. And as the Book of Genesis puts it, Law of the , we were placed in this world to work within it, to show our initiative and our creativity, and at the same time to look after it. And currently, what we are experiencing in terms of climate change, to a large degree, has been man-made. And we have a responsibility, not just to ourselves right now and not just to people right across the globe, but actually to people in all future generations. And it’s with this in mind, for example, that within our communities here in the UK, in January, we will be launching our special initiative relating to what we can practically do to participate in robust efforts with regard to climate change. And we’re calling the initiative Dorot, which is the Hebrew word for generations, because we have that responsibility to our future generations.
So what are some of the practical elements of the special initiative look like? Because to some people they may think, okay, other than perhaps from the pulpit, how can rabbis or spiritual leaders make a meaningful impact in this space?
So the analogy I would give is you’re searching, let’s say, in an office environment, and suddenly the fire alarm goes. And 99.9% of fire alarms are false alarms, so you kind of just carry on working and everybody carries on working. Who’s going to jump up and rush out of the building? But let’s say there is one person who jumps up and rushes out of the building at that time and says, “Come on everybody. There’s a fire alarm. We have to vacate the building.” Everybody will just follow. Similarly, right now there is an alarm which is being sounded. Unfortunately for everyone on this planet, it’s not a false alarm Sadly, there are so many people who are ignoring it. We need to have leaders who will stand up, get people behind them and say, “Come on everybody. We have to do something about it.” It so happens that approximately 85% of the world’s population have a connection to one faith or another, which means that faith leaders have an enormous amount of influence, and we must utilise the leadership that we have in order to take people behind us, to show responsibility. And the approach that I have is not a never or always, all or nothing approach, but rather a less or more approach. So as opposed to me announcing that I’m going to be becoming vegan, and by the way, I have the highest regard for vegans, and I wish that I could have the courage to take that path, but what I’m saying is I’m having less meat, considerably less meat. Instead of saying I will never fly again, let’s say we’re going to fly less. Let’s say we’re going to use less plastic. We’re going to use more plant-based materials. And whatever we can do in whatever way we can, let us genuinely contribute, as individuals, as families, as communities. And here we need to play to hearts and minds and also bricks and mortar. We need to play to the hearts and minds of people to convince them of the importance of it, and that will have an impact on the bricks and mortar that we live within and operate within. Together with that, let’s make changes to our bricks and mortar. And as a result, people will realise, “A-ha, in my synagogue we’re going green. I therefore should do this in my home as well.” So faith leaders do have a very important role here.
Well, having eaten Valerie’s cooking, I know it’s going to be difficult for you to go vegan. But I’m impressed that you’re making that effort in any case. So, when it comes to these kinds of important international issues, you know, you and I in fact last saw each other probably in another international conference at DeVos. And you know, I always think DeVos is a kind of fascinating microcosm of itself, but you know, you’ve looked to engage in these kind of world stages and show the importance of faith. So when you attend somewhere like DeVos where they are looking at the major issues facing the world, and, you know, faith leaders themselves are grappling with those issues. What do you see as the kind of pressing issues of today that DeVos or others may look at that you can play a real role in?
So thank you for mentioning DeVos. And actually, it was DeVos that I had in mind, the World Economic Forum, when I was attending COP26 because the reason why I attended the World Economic Forum and contributed to its proceedings was because faith leaders were made to feel welcome. And there was a track within which we had a natural role to play, and that’s because the organisers see a direct connection between faith and the world’s economy. At COP26, however, faith leaders were scrambling around trying to find a platform from which we could voice a relevant message. There wasn’t a natural position for us to be in. And I made that clear and I do hope that they make some changes for the better in the future to capitalise on the opportunity that faith leaders have to be leaders in this field. There are many other forums and, you know, like you and and everybody else, I’ve been missing these in-person opportunities since March of 2020 to actually engage in real life in conferences and conventions and seminars and on the like, but thank God for Zoom because it’s given us the chance to engage. And I’ve had some very precious experiences, such as addressing on a number of occasions primarily Muslim audiences thanks to the Abraham Accords. I’ve addressed events taking place in Abu Dhabi and in Dubai and other places because the Abraham Accords have opened the doors to a greater intensity and a higher productivity relating to Jewish-Muslim relations. That’s certainly a field that I’m very excited that I have a role to play in, together with so many other faith leaders. And then of course there’s the whole area of social responsibility, which I’m particularly passionate about.
So I want to push you on the area of social responsibility, but also on the role of Jewish values because, you know, Jews make up 0.2% of the population. So, you know, you’ve touched on the fact that 85% of the world’s population have a connection of one kind or another to faith, but it’s generally not Judaism. So, you know, where and what do you think people learn from Jewish values, and is this something where you feel like, you know, Judaism has a real role to play despite its very small following?
So, we’re very fortunate that today many gatherings and forums do provide an opportunity for faith to have a voice in, and there are many opportunities for Jewish leaders to express Jewish values. I have it here in the UK, for example, that regularly I contribute on Radio 4’s Today programme to what is called Thought for the Day, which is a three minute slot at primetime on the most popular current affairs news programme on the BBC, and I have a regular slot there. And this is something which is appreciated in the nation. There is a natural place for a Jewish faith leader within the context of other faith leaders. And we have an enormous amount to contribute in terms of the relevance of the teachings of our Torah to contemporary issues, whatever the issue might be. There is something that our tradition has to say added something of particular value that can enrich our society and inspire people during challenging times. Let’s take for example COVID, where I have been able to express Jewish values. For example, we have a responsibility not just to look after ourselves, but to look after other people. And by looking after ourselves, we are automatically looking after others. You know, Maimonides in his Laws of Repentance says that every time I perform a deed, that has an impact on me, my faith, my country, and the whole world. If it’s a positive deed, I have a positive impact on the planet. If it’s a negative deed, I have a negative impact on the planet. Now through COVID, we’ve seen how relevant that has been. If one single person has been negligent with regard to his or her own standards of health, hasn’t washed their hands properly when there was a call to do so, hasn’t taken the vaccination when they should have, steps on a plane, goes to another country, can infect one person and as a result an entire society can be affected. And therefore the globe is impacted by everything that I do. I have that sense of responsibility and there are many other examples. And people are so much in awe of the extent of the relevance of Judaism to contemporary life.
So you opened the door there on something that I wasn’t going to ask you about, but since you’ve opened it, I’m going to walk on through. You know, one of the headlines that grabbed around the world was in parts of the ultra-Orthodox community, not abiding by COVID regulations, you know, that there has been some leadership that have encouraged vaccine taking, et cetera, but not at the cost of continuing to come together and study. And you know, there’s been a lot of questions about how the Jewish values you have just laid out can be put alongside the ultra-Orthodox community, not following COVID regulations around the world. As I said, you opened the door, so I snuck in.
Well, thanks for mentioning this, Carly, because we have a responsibility to highlight the importance of us looking after ourselves for the sake of others. In Jewish thought, we must find a combination of what we call . is my faith in God. is God’s expectation that I will try my best as well. It’s a partnership. The Talmud says , you should never rely on miracles. So we turn to God in prayer devoutly, asking for his intervention, but at the same time, God turns to us to be his partners and to be responsible. And that surely has found its ultimate expression through our COVID experiences, through which we’ve been engaging in constant prayer. And at the same time, we recognise nothing’s going to happen automatically. God is looking to us to play our role and that means look after us, our health, to be vaccinated. And by and large, the Jewish community has been responsible and it has been exceptionally embarrassing when some small pockets within Judaism have not been so, and they’re certainly not a credit to us.
It’s like the age old Jewish joke with the man who’s drowning. And the rubber ring arrives and the boat arrives and the ladder arrives. And when the guy gets to heaven, he said, “God, you didn’t save me.” And God said, “I sent you a rubber ring, a boat and a ladder. What more do you want from me?”
[Rabbi] Absolutely.
I only hope that your words and others in your position can continue to help our community to follow that piece. And one of the other elements that the Kirsch Foundation’s been very involved in is the vaccination campaign in Eswatini. And in fact, early on we realised that the faith leaders, Christian leaders in Eswatini, were struggling, as you say, to absorb that mantra, and it was actually a rabbi that they requested to help them, you know, convince the church leaders in Eswatini of the importance of it. When you’ve spoken to other faith leaders, how have you found their receptiveness to these ideas of the importance of leaders really pushing their communities on some of the thornier issues such as COVID and vaccines?
So we have an initiative here which we call Vaccinate, and I have been absolutely outspokenly, passionately calling for everyone within our society to support the initiative. The initial idea was early on, as soon as the vaccinations became available, that in return for the gift from God, for the vaccination that I would receive to save my life, ‘cause that’s effectively what it is about, that I would donate a portion of vaccination for somebody in a part of the world where it’s not accessible to them. And this grew and grew, and thankfully we’ve had some tremendous Jewish philanthropic support. And I’m so delighted to hear what the Kirsch Foundation has done, and that is Jewish at its finest. It causes a , sanctification of God’s name, within the whole world. And in my collaboration with other faith leaders, I found them to be receptive. Only a few of the exceptions to the rule. But by and large, they have been responsible and they have given a good lead on this.
So returning to our discussion around global social responsibility, obviously this is a part of it. You have a doctrine that you’ve been talking about for a long time, a kind of Jewish foreign policy for the 21st century. What does that mean, both in theory and then what are the practical ramifications of it?
Okay, so this is a major subject which I’m so passionate about, and it all goes back to a debate in the Jerusalem Talmud. One is the most important verse of the whole Bible. It’s a great question and Rabbi Akiva answers Leviticus chapter 19 verse 18. We all know it, . Love your fellow person as yourself. A great answer. The most important verse in the whole Bible. But then Azariah, a contemporary of Rabbi Akiva, challenged him and said, “No, . There is a more important statement in the Bible. It’s Genesis chapter five, verse one, which teaches us that every human being is created in the image of God.” And then Azariah’s point was Rabbi Akiva, your verse, loving your fellow as yourself, that only relates to your neighbour, somebody you know, somebody who lives in your neighbourhood, somebody who’s part of your community or perhaps your faith. But from Genesis, we learn that every human being on Earth has been created in God’s image, and therefore our affection for and consideration towards others should extend towards everyone in the world. Now that teaching informs my entire leadership. And in 2014, at the end of the year, Valerie and I, within my role as Chief Rabbi of the Commonwealth, went to India and over 11 days we visited 19 Jewish communities in five cities. But we made a point as well of visiting the slums and we visited awful slums, both in Mumbai and in Kolkata. Anyone who’s visited a slum will just not be able to get those terrible images out of one’s mind. And we were so moved from that experience, we felt we had to do something and we were particularly inspired to see Jewish philanthropic support within the slums, particularly in Mumbai. We came back to London and we established the Ben Azzai Programme, named after Ben Azzai in the Talmud, who said, “Our responsibility is to everyone on Earth.” And through the Ben Azzai Programme, every year we are have been sending a large group of top university students to places in the world where they can study about the depth of paucity, about how we can build a sustainable environment. And they’re not going as poverty tourists. God forbid, no. They’re going to learn the skills to be able to teach others on their return home how to be responsible towards everyone on Earth. And already the graduates of the Ben Azzai Programme have initiated so many outstanding programmes. And now we can’t send people to other places in the world on such a programme, so instead we are investing in a new type of Ben Azzai Programme which will be here in the UK, which is equally as good and it’s exceptionally exciting.
So one of the things, and we’ve discussed this programme before, but one of the things that I think is particularly interesting, in addition to the the social responsibility element, is the engagement with young Jews who are passionate about these issues. Because, you know, I think the established community has struggled to offer an opportunity, a voice, a home for young Jews who are particularly passionate about social responsibility. And perhaps I would say wrongly, but there has been, you know, a lack of organisations and opportunity who have those missions. You know, we have a few in America, a few in Canada, Zedek in the UK, and a couple of others. But it’s a space where, you know, it’s great for people not to have to choose between their Jewish identity and their passion about social responsibility. So when you engage with these young Jewish audiences who are focused on these issues, how do you find a way to communicate the importance of Jewish values and how that’s a compliment to their goals of social responsibility and not at odds with?
So when we started the programme, it wasn’t easy because the type of mindsets you’ve been talking about had been very prevalent. Thankfully within just a few years, we’ve seen a major shift in terms of outlook and the landscape has started to change. You see, the Ben Azzai Programme is one which is an initiative of the Office of the Chief Rabbi. I’m heading it up. I’ve got a team of people who are responsible for choosing the participants. We have a Rabbi and a rebbetzin who go out with the group to accompany them, to give them shiurim, lectures, to teach them about the connection of our social responsibility to sources in the Bible and in the Talmud, so that this is an expression of our religiosity. It comes right to the core of what Hashem expects us to do as good Jews. And that’s a major statement, which is not lost on the young adults you were talking about who find this of enormous relevance to their lives. And indeed, what I’m finding is that when I visited campuses around the country and I speak about these type of initiatives, people suddenly realise, wow. The Torah is relevant to us. It’s not an ancient book. It speaks in terms of what we are willing to buy into. And people can enthusiastically do that as proud religious Jews.
So talking of making Judaism relevant today, obviously one of the tools, and actually one of the tools that your late predecessor, former Chief Rabbi Sacks, was very keen on was the role of social media. And he and I used to have debates. We could both end up on either side of, was it a force of good or a force for bad? And I wonder where you sit on that, both as a tool for outreach and engagement for some of these younger audiences we’ve been talking about, but also for the kind of health of society today.
So, the phenomenon of social media is similar to just about everything we have on earth in terms of our Jewish outlook. Let me explain. In Jewish philosophy, nothing has been created by God to be inherently good or bad. God creates everything in a neutral state. So let’s take wood, the wood of a tree. You can’t say that it’s good or bad. I can take wood. I can create a book out of it which will teach people, which will educate, and sustain life. On the other hand, I can from the very same tree create sticks with which I will beat people and be exceptionally cruel. The same applies to all objects that exist. You have a prime example of this. You know, when I take a bottle of wine and I just slog it down and then become drunk, not me personally, and lying in the gutters, man at his lowest. I can take the very same bottle of wine, put it on a Friday night table, and make knish with it. I’ve elevated it. And incidentally, that’s why the biblical term for a prostitute is , the holy one. Because God has created us with the desire to love. It all depends under what circumstances we use it. And the same principle applies to feelings, sensations. Let’s take hatred. Hatred can be bad. Hatred can be good. If I hate what is bad in this world, if I hate wickedness, then that’s a good thing. I can love terrible things. I can love good things. So similarly with regards to television, computers, and most certainly social media, it all depends on how we utilise it. And we all know the power that social media has for good and how it transforms lives. And at a Jewish level, the amount of education that takes place thanks to it is absolutely extraordinary. Together with that, social media kills people. Social media can be utilised for wicked purposes. And I am just so saddened by the extent to which social media has made life for young people, and particularly for teenagers, exceptionally challenging. Already, there is so much very challenging mental health issues out there today, and social media can be very cruel to people who are young, don’t know what has hit them, what is going, their self-esteem. And as a society, we have not succeeded in controlling what the social media companies are putting out there. And this is a stain on our society.
So, you just touched on the issue of mental health, where, you know, many rabbis today are often in a place where people come for support, for pastoral care, and therefore have often been on the front lines of navigating mental health. Now returning to your previous comments about the role of faith leaders, the importance for faith leaders to take positions to really show the importance of values and to lead from the front. You know, there has been a lot of stigma and I guess reluctance from government and elsewhere to really tackle and prioritise the issues of mental health. What do you think rabbis and people like yourself can do to help overcome some of those stigmas?
I think it’s so good of you to mention the fact that there is a stigma, which is absolutely awful. And we can do a lot. First of all, I think it’s important for all faith leaders to talk about mental health. In the same ways from the pulpit we speak about all other types of challenges within society today, let’s speak about it openly. Let people who are suffering from mental health issues, either severe or light, know that what they’re enduring is something normal. Many, many people have it. They should never feel ashamed about it and they certainly should not hesitate coming forward in order to receive the right type of professional help that will assist them, because that help is out there. And also, if we are aware of people who need such help, we should be referring them in a responsible way to receive professional care. I’ll give you an example of something that I did. There is a young man in his thirties called Jonny Benjamin who became well known in Britain, and in fact a high profile BBC television programme, a documentary was made on what transpired in his life. Very sadly, he suffered from deep mental health issues. He wanted to take his life and a passer-by talked him out of it. And eventually he and the passerby appeared on this television documentary, and Jonny Benjamin has now come become a force for incredible good, not just in the Jewish community, but well beyond within the nation. So I interviewed Jonny Benjamin. It was close to the beginning of our first lockdown on mental health issues. We made a five minute, small edited version of it and a longer 27 minute version of the interview. Hundreds of thousands of people around the world have seen this interview, particularly high school pupils. And in it, the two of us are speaking to people and saying the same message relating to how terrible it is that anybody should ever think there’s a stigma. The most important word that we mentioned was the word talk. Talk about it. You know, once you start speaking about the problem that you have, it’ll make it much easier for you to be able to contend with it. Share what is going on in your mind with others, et cetera, et cetera. So that’s a small example of something which I have done, but certainly we all have a responsibility in this regard.
And you’ve named in the course of our conversation some of the fairly major challenges facing the world today. What are the issues that keep you up at night that you as Chief Rabbi think you have the power to affect?
I’m a good sleeper, Carly. And that’s because by the time I get to sleep, I am so exhausted.
I’ll rephrase the question. What do you work on most hard during your active hours during the day? You can share after this your tips for a good night’s sleep.
Okay. So I can say so much. Let me say in terms of the key challenges facing the Jewish world today, I would say that they are the three A’s, three words starting with A: anti-Semitism, assimilation, and apathy. The first two are the obvious ones. One is a threat from without, the other threat from within. Anti-Semitism is an enormous, growing problem. Assimilation certainly is a problem for our people as it is well known, and we have to engage in top quality education to counter it. But the third huge challenge, apathy, is the hidden one. And today, when there are so many exciting opportunities that people have, particularly in the palm of their hand and at the press of a button, we need to up our game and we need to provide inspiration at the highest possible level. And the greatest news is that we have a product that sells itself. It’s authored by none other than almighty God. It is the Torah. And I’ll give you an example, Shabbat. You know, given at Mount Sinai thousands of years ago, Shabbat is more relevant in our creative and sophisticated 21st century than it has ever been since it was given at Mount Sinai. All of our society needs a Shabbat, a digital detox day, a day when we can take a step back and cleanse our minds and have a fresh approach to the days ahead of us. So we need to counter apathy and recognise that it’s there at all levels. There’s a danger of Jewish observants becoming too mechanical. People need to experience the thrill, the joy, the spirituality of the Jewish religious experience. There’s far too much of the JFK phenomenon, that’s just for kiddish, when people are coming for the social aspect of it, which is hugely important, but are ignoring our connection to our roots and to our faith, which is the essence of what will guarantee our continuity. Together with that, let me mention just one other of many issues. It is the thinning out of the middle ground. We’re seeing a society which is moving towards the extremes. We’re seeing Judaism moving towards the extremes, either people who are totally apathetic and moving towards assimilation or those who are becoming pretty extreme in terms of their interpretation of Judaism and expression of it. And I’m a champion of moderation. That’s what Maimonides taught us. That’s what our Torah is about. And we need to lead lives of moderation in a responsible way, and I’m troubled by the fact that that middle ground is thinning out and it’s one of my key objectives to strengthen that middle ground.
Unfortunately, it’s not just in the Jewish world that we are losing that middle ground. It’s across every part of society. And we’ve had Tony Blair as a guest on here previously, and he had spent a lot of time discussing that. How do you think, not just yourself, but faith in general can play a role here, especially when, you know, there is also a movement, a secular movement, against, you know, faith and its importance and perhaps, you know, how attractive or how, you know, sexy an idea faith is to younger audiences today. How do you think you can keep hold of the middle ground?
So as I mentioned before… Let me speak about Judaism and not faith in general. Faith in general is complex and so let me speak about Judaism-
Glad that means you think Judaism is simple.
And yes. I mentioned before that what God has created is neutral, can be used in all types of ways. Faith can be used and it can be abused. And one can sometimes see how faith can be used as a tool to torture and to sadden people. And that is the ultimate , the desecration of God’s name. But faith in its pure form is an enormous source for happiness, meaning, fun, and joy. And I think that is certainly something that people experience. You know, as a rabbi, there are so many ways through which I can hopefully get through to people, but my wife and I have found that the most important arena upon which we can enable people to appreciate the Yiddishkeit is our Shabbos table. It’s not a formal lecture. It’s not trying to prove anything scientifically. It’s giving people the taste of , of hospitality, of warmth, of joy, of meaning, of spirituality, good food as well, and just showing that a Torah-true way of life gives us meaning. Particularly during COVID, the souls of people around the world have been yearning for an expression. So many academic studies, global studies, have all come up with the same conclusion: a significant increase in spirituality. That doesn’t mean that people are now turning to established faiths. They’re not, significantly more than before. We need to find an opportunity to enable people to channel that spirituality in a constructive way. And so we can certainly do that by showing the relevance of our faith. And often the person who represents something must be an exemplar of it. If you have faith leaders who themselves are corrupt, who themselves set a poor example, there’s no hope that people will be touched by their message. And therefore being a mensch, being a good person, living up to what you preach and showing that there’s so much happiness and meaning in life as a result of the faith journey, I have found that it works and people are up for it.
I will say that one of the highlights when I used to return from whichever long, cold walk we had gone on to take you to Shaw when I was one of your close protection officers was the fact that Valerie was always there insisting no matter what we said, that we were coming in afterwards and we would at least do kiddish with you and sit down and make sure that, you know, we had a good 10 minute discussion at the end of that, regardless of the fact that we had already, you know, done our three or four hour shift.
Well, thank you for all that, Carly.
How do you reach people, though, who don’t have the normal touch points that perhaps people used to have in the past with Judaism, whether that is a Jewish school, whether that is going to synagogue, you know, there are more and more Jews who are kind of outside of the physical walls that used to be the way for people to connect to either your rabbi or some form of kind of Jewish leadership and education. So are you hoping to bring young Jews back into the building, literally and metaphorically, or are you looking for other ways to reach them?
We must use multiple entry points, and the entry point that works for one person might not work for another. And we need to be creative in terms of the entry points that we saw. So, for example, a few years ago I went on March of the Living. I find it exceptionally painful to visit places of Jewish suffering in Europe, particularly because some members of my family perished in Dachau there, but I forced myself to do that and it’s important. And with March of the Living, I went there because there are hundreds of people from the UK who participated, whom I never see in shul. The connection to their Judaism is through anti-Semitism. It’s through viewing Jewish suffering. It’s through identifying with the sadnesses of our past. So I went to them where they were. And indeed one finds that, you mentioned, Carly, providing security out of buildings. I’ve come across so many people who have been very distanced from our established Jewish community, but thanks to the fact that they have volunteered out of the goodness of their heart to stand outside our buildings on very cold winter nights, being incredible, looking after whatever event is happening, it is not unusual for people to approach me and to say, “Can I come inside? I see everybody going in with smiles on their faces. I see them leaving with smiles on their faces. I’d like to experience what they were doing inside for myself.” And that’s an entry point. I came across a fascinating entry point when I was approached because of the fact that I’m Chief Rabbi of the Commonwealth. I was approached to speak to the New Zealand Jewish community in order to encourage them to send a delegation to the Maccabiah. There’s no delegation from New Zealand. And why is it important? It’s important because 28% of those who participate in the Maccabiah eventually make aliyah to Israel. Therefore the Maccabiah is an entry point for Jews, for Israel, for an expression of one’s Jewish identity. I have become a passionate supporter of Maccabi London. In fact, just two weeks ago I went to light the Hanukkah candles at Maccabi London. We had hundreds of young kids at the end of their football games and what have you, all gathered together. And I lit the hanukkiyah and we all sang together. Why did I do that? Because sports can be an entry point. If you’re playing sport within the Jewish club, that means you feel more proud of your Judaism and you’re more inclined to be linked to your roots as a result. So we need to think of these out-of-the-box ideas, to be creative. Shuls are so hugely important, but that’s not the only way to strengthen our Judaism.
So you touched on something around both security and antisemitism. And, you know, you took an unusual step several years ago in the run up to Jeremy Corbyn’s election to take what some might have seen as a kind of more political stance. You know, it’s very unusual for the Office of the Chief Rabbi to come out on these kinds of issues. Now, you know, there was a well-covered, concerning incident in the UK last week in Oxford Street where, you know, a young group of Jewish kids were dancing outside a menorah in Oxford Street and they were the victims of anti-Semitism. Now that has been compounded by the, I’ll be generous and call it inaccurate reporting, of the BBC on it. And, you know, despite someone who grew up proudly in the Jewish community and, as you know, spent a long time standing outside on the cold street corners defending the rights of Jews, but passionately so that British Jews could continue in joy, how do you engage with elite society in the UK, with the BBC, with opinion formers to help them understand modern day anti-Semitism and, you know, how the Jewish community in the UK feels?
So I see that as being an essential part of my role. And the vast majority of what I do in this respect is behind the scenes, because sometimes it’s really important to make a public stand, as I did with Jeremy Corbyn. I recognise that it would be of historic significance for our community to publicly make the nation aware leading up to a general election of what the consequences of a Corbyn-led government would be for our country. That certainly was the exception to the rule. The BBC is a good example over the Oxford Street incident. My office has been in daily contact with the BBC, and today, alright, it has been reported in one of the papers. I was in touch with the director general of the BBC. I hold regular meetings. We are in touch, and we utilise home hospitality as well in order to forge close relationships so that we have an ear. And people know that when I speak about something, I’m coming, hopefully they will see, as a responsible representative of the Jewish community, a moderate voice that is seeking a solution rather than somebody trying to fan the flames. And it works thankfully, and I feel so privileged that I’m living in a country where the voice of the Jewish community is recognised and is respected. So a lot of what I do is behind the scenes and I find that that works in a very significant way. And then there are occasions where we must stand up, our voice must be heard, and I don’t hesitate from doing that when necessary.
So, you know, I know there are several faithful leaders in the UK who are considered, you know, the kind of key representatives, but who also come together a lot to look at interfaith values about ways that you can kind of build partnerships and connections across communities. Where do you see the kind of high level, interfaith interactions that you have with your colleagues alongside the kind of day-to-day practical ramifications? One of the things that, you know, really I thought was a highlight of this was Bushey Synagogue taking action right from the start with regards to Afghan refugees. And it was actually Bushey Synagogue kind of pulling in their local mosques as a way to say, you know, we have to be leaders on this. So how do you get your high level engagement to meet, like, reality on the ground?
I think that’s a great question, and it is an ongoing challenge for us. At the highest level, there is healthy engagement and often close friendships. Our challenge is to enable that friendship and that understanding to filter through, down to grassroots level. I remember when I was Chief Rabbi of Ireland many years ago, I hosted the International Conference of Christians and Jews and we had 250 delegates from around the world. And the Lord Mayor of Dublin at the time, his name was Jim Tunney, a very significant political character. And we had an event in the Mansion House in Dublin, and the Lord Mayor stood up and he said to everybody, “At your conference, you should dispense with all these speeches and lectures. Formalities are not what you need. In order to get better understanding between people of faiths, all you need is cheesecake. And if you want the explanation, ask the Chief Rabbi.” Now, what is he referring to? So there is a tradition that on the first day in office, the Lord Mayor of Dublin pays three visits: to the Cardinal, to the Protestant Archbishop, and to the Chief Rabbi. And before I became Chief Rabbi, the visit was always to the Office of the Chief Rabbi, but Valerie and I changed that, and the Lord Mayor came to our home for afternoon tea. And so Jim Tunney arrived and he was a member of the Dail, the Irish parliament at the time. And when he arrived, he said, “I really must apologise to you. I’ll only be able to be here for about 10 minutes. I’m waiting for a call for me to dash back to the door for an important vote and they need my vote.” Okay, fair enough.
Anyway, we were having the tea. Valerie had baked a beautiful, large cheesecake, and Jim Tunney had piece after piece after piece. And somebody came in and said, “Sir, you’re wanted at the Dail.” He said, “Just hold on a moment, please. I’d like to have another piece of cheesecake before I go.” And the government nearly lost that vote because Jim Tunney was tucking into his cheesecake. And he always said afterwards, if you want to achieve togetherness and success between faith, just be friends. Have some cheesecake. Appreciate that everybody is a human being to the extent that you are. Of course, in addition to that, we must have substance. And that’s why I established what we call the In Good Faith programme. The Archbishop for Canterbury and I are the creators and the heads of it. And it’s a wonderful system. It’s been going now for some six years. We have paired up rabbis and priests from throughout the UK who study together, who embark on initiatives together, and then we bring them all together for shared experiences. And what they are doing together is having a major impact on their communities. And I’ll end with just one last anecdote. So, sorry for dropping names. So I had a meeting with the Pope in the Vatican and I prepared well and we had a great conversation. And I came back and the Shabbos afterwards, there was a man in shul. I’d never seen him before in shul. And he came up to me and he said, “Chief Rabbi, I’ve come to shul to tell you that today, I spoke to my neighbour for the first time in 40 years.
And I said, "What do you mean? And what’s it going to do with me?” He said, “Well, I saw a photograph of you with the Pope in the newspaper, and if you can speak to the Pope, then I can speak to my Polish Catholic neighbour, whom I’ve always detested because of what the Catholics did to the Jews during the war.” And he then said to me, “I’ve been wrong. We need to find the ways to have friendship together.” And he had this perception because, you know, because the neighbour was Polish, Catholic, then whatever. And so the photo images are hugely important. We must be seen together. We must engage as much as possible. Let’s have as much cheesecake as possible, but we also need substance. And let’s not hide away from the tough issues of the day, including matters relating to Israel and friction surrounding that. Let’s not ignore it. Let’s share our thoughts about it in order that we can move together. And if we’re not going to agree on everything, at least we’ll respect each other.
So in one of our first encounters, you brought up to me how important the role of Israel is for you, you know, that it’s always been an incredibly key part of your identity. You know, you have children there. It’s something that you spend a lot of time in. And as you’ve just touched on, obviously in the role of Chief Rabbi, navigating Israel can be something that is difficult and something that hasn’t always been kind of firmly in the Chief Rabbi’s focus. But you were very clear very early on. How have you found navigating those difficult conversations, either at the senior interfaith level or just with your, you know, everyday kind of, you know, community member coming up to you?
It is well known that I am passionate about Israel. I’m a passionate Zionist and I proudly state that. At the same time, I’m not the Israeli ambassador. I’m a faith leader. I represent a faith within the UK, and therefore it’s up to representatives of the state of Israel to represent the position of Israel. There are certain occasions when it is important for the nation to know that Israel has the support of the Jewish community, such as when there are major conflicts in the Middle East. And on such occasions I find the right way to express my support for the position that Israel has. Also, I don’t like the idea of Jewish leaders publicly criticising Israel. We’ve got enough trouble from our detractors from without. That doesn’t mean to say that I don’t open my mouth. Just to give you an example, during the past month and a half, I’ve met with President Herzog and Prime Minister Naftali Bennett, and alternate Prime Minister Yair Lapid. And when I have meetings with such leaders of Israel, I bring to them the voice of British jury and sometimes concerns that I have, and also the congratulations that I might have. It’s very important for those channels of communication to be open, and when it is carried out with respect and responsibility, one can actually achieve the huge amount. So I’m proud to be a passionate supporter of the state of Israel in every possible way, but it shouldn’t always be mixed up in a formal sense with the fact that I’m the faith leader of the Jewish people in the UK.
Well, Chief Rabbi Mirvis, that has been an hour. I feel like we could have kept going for several more, but this was a really special opportunity for me and for you to join our lockdown community. You know, a lot of the issues that you touched on that the world has been craving is exactly why Wendy started this platform and why the reception has been, you know, so amazing, that it’s given people a way to tap in to that need, even a form of spirituality that they are craving particularly now. So thank you very much. Wendy, I’m going to hand back over to you.
Thank you very much. Thanks, Carly. Thank you very much, Rabbi, for that extremely thought-provoking presentation. You touched on so many issues, which, you know, I think about so often and which I’d love to spend time chatting to you about. Mental health with the youth and social media. I think sport, I think education, we could start with education and reintroducing sport back into the schools. As you said, how important Maccabi games are to you. It’s all about community, belonging, learning to play together. It is just so important, as is art and culture in the schools. And the other issues that you spoke about finding, you know, there’s good and bad in everything. You know, how we use our speech. You can speak in a positive way. You can speak in a negative way. You can lead with strength or weakness. It’s a matter of choice, because we’ve given all these incredible gifts. And so sitting around the table, building community, having Shabbats together, as you say. Being part of the community. Feeling the love, really. So I can go on and on and on. And as for the cheesecake, well, in my family-
Wendy’s famous for her cheesecake.
Yes, I’m famous for my cheesecake in the family. And yes, cheesecake really builds a lot of bridges. So I’m very happy to share my recipe and I just want to say a very big thank you to you and to Carly for a really fantastic hour. Million thanks from all of us, from all our presenters.
Well, may I just conclude by saying thank you so much, Carly, for that very lovely and and memorable conversation. Thank you so much, Wendy, for hosting the event.
[Wendy] Great.
And congratulations to the Kirsch Foundation for everything that you’re doing in such an extraordinary way.
Thank you. Thank you very, very much. My dad is going to be 90 soon and he’s the rainmaker. My parents really have been a source of love and inspiration and we are role models for my siblings, myself, the grandchildren, and, you know, we’ve just taken the back and forth. And we have wonderful people, you know, in the community like yourself, you know, who are joining us, and I just want to thank you very, very much for being with us.
Great pleasure.
For being part of our faculty now. Thanks, everybody. Night night.
Okay, all the best.
Bye bye.
Bye for now.
[Rabbi] Okay, bye.