Trudy Gold
The Shoah in France, Part 2
Trudy Gold - The Shoah in France, Pt 2
- Now, of course, this is an incredibly difficult area to deal with. It’s a difficult area to teach. It’s a difficult area to receive. But I’d very much like to thank some of you who not only sent me incredible words of encouragement, but also those of you who shared some of your experiences, which through Lynn Julius, the Jews of Bukhara I’ve been able to follow up. And I found that absolutely fascinating. So please continue with this because we’re not yet sure how we’re going to assemble. But over the years, we’ve got the most extraordinary groups of people sending the stories of their families. And I think that’s so very important because this is how stories are shared. And as I said to you last week, we are the people of memory and we have to remember. And tonight I’m continuing with those who collaborated, and then I’ll be looking at the major Nazi perpetrators, and then we will be beginning to look at some of the heroes. And then what I plan to do on the 29th, we’re going to have a break and we’re going to look at “Casablanca” as the immigrant movie. And then the next session of mine in the New Year, I’ll be looking at Jewish and non-Jewish rescuers, because that’s the point. There were some amazing rescuers too. And underlying all of this, of course, is the whole nature of people, what makes some turn to the light, what makes some turn to the dark? And it certainly got nothing to do with level of education. And that came out incredibly strongly in many of the letters that people sent to me. It’s got nothing to do with level of education. So now I’m turning to Vallat. Now his dates are 1891 to 1973. He came from a very conservative Catholic family.
In his youth, he was very much part of Catholic organisations. And he joined Action Francaise, which we discussed a couple of weeks ago. Action Francaise that very right wing group, bearing in mind divided France. Action Francaise at the extreme wing of conservative monarchical Catholic France as opposed to the liberal Third Republic and the France of the Rights of Man. And if you remember the whole notion of Liberty, Equality, Fraternity, helped Petain turned that round to Family, Work and Country. And Vallat, so he was a teacher in Catholic schools. He was wounded in World War I, he lost his left leg and right eye. And I mentioned to you just how tragically badly the French did suffer in the First World War. So many were wounded, so many died. It was an extraordinarily catastrophic time for France. And, of course, France was the one country in Europe that didn’t regenerate itself. People stopped having the number of children to regenerate in every generation. He becomes a member of the National Assembly, defeated… If there’s a liberal government in power when there’s a right wing government. And by the 1930s, he is the leading representative of the Catholic anti-Semitic extreme right. He was very Anti-Protestant, he was very Anti-Mason. France should be a Catholic country. France should be a conservative country. He found liberalism, socialism, and communism diseases. And he didn’t favour the restoration of the monarchy and actually was Anti-German. Despite sympathy for fascism, he saw himself as the total French patriot. It’s very important to remember these things. He is the French patriot. And 1936, of course, when you had Leon Blum, the Jewish Prime Minister, he made a series of terrible attacks on him.
This would just give you an example. For the first time, this ancient Gallo-Roman land will be governed by a Jew. And, of course, Blum was seriously attacked by the Croix de Feu, which was a splinter organisation of Action Francaise. And he said the lefties is actually responsible because they are inducing this kind of hatred in France. Now, after the German occupation in June 1940, he, of course, supported the Vichy regime. And March ‘41, he’s appointed as head of the… He’s in charge of all the Jewish questions in Vichy. So he is set up. He is the man that implemented all the laws I talked to you about, which of, course, with the Aryanisation of the French economy, the education system, civil service, and the enforcement of law, which required all Jews to register with the police. And remember, I’ve told you this is terribly important, Vichy passed this on its own initiative. Now he’s a violent antisemite but he’s also a French patriot. And he becomes more and more angry at the restrictive German regime. And he was particularly critical when the Germans refused to release as many as two million French prisoners of war. Many of them were being used for slave labour.
As a result, the German Ambassador to Vichy Otto Abetz demanded that Petain dismiss him in May, 1942. Consequently, it was his successor Pellepoix, who oversaw most of the French cooperation in the German deportations. Remember, over 77,000 Jews are going to die, and it’s going to be not him, he was first in charge. It’s going to be his successor, Pellepoix, who’s going to see it. He remains though a supporter of Vichy. And after D-Day, he was appointed head of Vichy Radio following the assassination of Henriot, his predecessor by the Resistance. And you can imagine the kind of propaganda that was being spewed out. But he broadcasts regularly anti-Semitic to raids until the allies actually took over Vichy. He was put on trial, a totally unrepentant antisemite. He demanded that one of the judges at his trial be removed because he was Jewish. He denied direct responsibility in the deportations, which is actually true because he was no longer in charge. And he falsely claimed that Vichy anti-Jewish laws were in fact German orders. Now, what happened to him? He was sentenced to 10 years in prison. It was considered lenient because he had been a war hero. He’d lost an eye, he’d lost an arm. He was released on parole in 1949, an amnesty in 1954. And, of course, what happens to him, he returns to anti-Semitic agitation, he becomes editor of an ultra right wing journal. And he died in 1973. Serge Klarsfeld, the Nazi hunter who had lost his own family in the war. He went to his funeral with a large wreath, the Star of David.
So it’s also fascinating how few of the major perpetrators were really brought to justice. This is a very complicated area. At the end of the war, of course, there’s this terrible revenge on the part of the French against collaborators, but much of it was misplaced and many of the real perpetrators got away with it. Now let’s turn to his successor Pellepoix who was guilty. Remember he was the one in Vichy actually in charge of the deportations. And have a look at his dates. He was a veteran of World War I. He was a member of Action Francaise, Croix de Feu, violently anti-Semitic. At a public meeting, he said this, “We must, with all urgency, resolve the Jewish problem, whether by expulsion, or massacre.” In a British report on the French in 1942, he was called one of the most notorious antisemites in France. And at Nazi Germany’s request, he’s appointed head for Jewish affairs Serviettes, who the SS they found Vallat far too moderate. His post preceded the first mass deportations. He was fired in February '44, mainly because of greed and incompetence. Greed. He stole, he stole, he stole, he stole. Have you any idea how much Jewish property was stolen by these monsters? And you see this is the other interesting point about these evil regimes. Nevertheless, they want some kind of order. So what happens he’s sentenced to de death in absentia by the French High Court of Justice but he fled to Spain where he is protected by Franco.
In 1978, in an interview in L'Express because he’s living the high life in Spain, and he’s interviewed by a leading newspaper where he said the gas chambers at Auschwitz were not used to kill people but lice, it’s all Jewish lies. And it caused a scandal. The French demanded his extradition. It was denied. But the case did raise… The case, because of this article and because there was a lot of… There was a huge fuss about it. It did lead to, if you like, the raising of the profile of what happened in France. Can we go on please, Emily? This is Pellepoix himself. Now look at his dates, 1909 to 1993. He came from a radical socialist family. He studied law and become a prefet in Tarn-et-Garonne. So he comes from a socialist, a left wing, educated background. 1930, he became a great hero in France because he and a friend saved dozens of people from drowning. There were terrible floods in southwest France and he and a friend jumped into the river. He obviously had a reckless personality and saved lots of people. Now, April '42, Pierre Laval appoints him, General Secretary of the Police. He’s allowed to sign on behalf of the Head of State. And in April… By May 6th of May '42, he obtained consent from the SS to transfer 5,000 Jews from Drancy to the East. So he is applying to the SS to do this. The SS police leader, Carl Oberg, was in charge of the police. And Bousquet kept worked with him quite closely, but also had a lot of autonomy. This is important.
The French police, by collaborating with the Germans, it gave them autonomy in all sorts of other areas. And on the 2nd of July '42, Bousquet and Oberg, they were behind the Vel’ d'Hiv Roundup. And he personally protected the order. He cancelled the order protecting some of the children from arrest. And the decision would be made not to deport parents with children under five. You’ve got to remember that it was actually Vallat. I beg your pardon. It was Laval in his dissents is that who didn’t know what deportations mean and that’s why we wanted to keep the children together. This man actually said, we’ve got to send them all. And after the arrests, some Catholic bishops protested. And as a response, and I’m going to be talking about that when I talk about rescue, and the main character was actually the archbishop to lose an incredibly important character. And so what he says is, “If you don’t keep quiet, then I’m going to cancel all the tax concessions of the Catholic Church.” And now he what? So it’s important to understand this is the man who’s actually behind the roundups. In Marseille, 30,000, supervised by the German Oberg. But Himmler mentions Bosquet, a precious collaborator in a framework of police collaboration. That’s from Heinrich Himmler, the head of the SS. He resigned in December ‘43, replaced by Darnand. And during the…. When France surrendered, he was in Bavaria, he met with Laval and was actually with him the nights before his execution.
Now in 1949, he is tried by the High Court of Justice and he was given the minimum sentence of five years for indignite nationale. It was lifted towards the end because towards the end it was thought that he had cooperated with the Resistance. As with other Vichy officials, he was excluded from general public service. So what happened, he went into banking and he worked for the Banque de l'Indochine, and then he wrote a lot of articles in the newspapers. He was very active in politics. He was a brilliant speaker. You can see he’d been a hero of France. He was a good looking man. He knew Mitterrand. And in 1989, Klarsfeld filed a complaint against him, specifically for the deportation of 194 children from six departments in France. Klarsfeld, remember, was a lawyer. And when he attacked, he attacked very, very carefully. Eight years of investigation. 8th of June, a few weeks before his trial, he was actually assassinated by a man called Christian Didier. Now, if the trial had been… Because what Klarsfeld managed to bring against Bousquet is a trial for crimes against humanity but the trial never took place because he was assassinated. Can we go on please? Paul Touvier.
There was a film starring Michael Kane, which was faction based on this particular man. I mentioned to you that there are… 'Cause people are remarking on films. And, of course, there are some brilliant documentaries, but also some interesting feature films which are faction but it does give you an atmosphere. And I did mention to you just to reiterate that certainly in England, Netflix and Prime, if you put in into your search engine Jewish films, you will see hundreds of films. Now, Paul Touvier, he came from a religious Catholic background, very pro-Petain. He joined Milice, he worked for Klaus Barbie. And Touvier, what happened was the Vichy Minister for Propaganda Philippe Henriot was shot by the Resistance. Remember, he was the guy who ran the radio. Touvier took seven Jewish prisoners and shot them in reprisal. On the 10th of September '47, he was sentenced in absentia, statue of limitation, application for pardon, Pompidou granted him a pardon in 1971. In 1973, Glaeser filed the new category crimes against humanity, which of course had first come out of the United Nations at the end of the war, those categories, that we will deal with again. And there’s no statute of limitation on crimes against humanity. He was arrested in 1981 and he was arrested… I beg your pardon, it, 1989, he was arrested at the Society of Saint Pius X in Nice where he’d been allowed to live in the Priory as an act, quote unquote, “of charity to a homeless man.”
He was actually protected by a very right wing Catholic order. And he died in prison at the age of 81 and mass was said for his soul. So these characters, these Vichy characters who are brought to justice, yet nevertheless, what it’s important to remember is that many of them had much support post-war. Can we go on please? Can we go on? Maurice Papon. Maurice Papon, fascinating character. 1910 to 2007, a French civil servant who led the police in the major prefecture from the 30s to the 60s. He was a Gaullist politician. So he is actually a member of the police under Vichy. And in 1961, he was given the Legion of Honour by Charles de Gaulle. And he was useful to de Gaulle in suppression of the pro-National Liberation Front. After the forced disappearance of the Moroccan Marxist Mehdi Ben Barka, many of you will know this, he withdrew and resigned with de Gaulle support. He became president of Sud Aviation, very important. He was in the cabinet under Giscard d'Estaing. Now documents about his past were leaked and it was found out that he was responsible for deporting 1,690 Bordeaux Jews to Drancy. He had a 10-year sentence. He fled to Switzerland but he’s extradited and a release from sentence in 2002 because of illness. He died in 2007.
Now a question to ask to ask all of you, does the legacy of collaboration, the dark years, still cost tragedy over France? Because many of these people… Look, I’m telling you, people who became politicians, who lived good lives. Can we go on please? And let’s have a look again the two slides that I showed you. Here, of course, you see the Drancy internment camp where so many thousands of men, women and children were herded in the most appalling conditions before their deportations to the east. And as I said, Laval was said, he didn’t know what deportations to the east meant. He thought it meant forced labour. And that is a moot point, which we will come to time and time again. Can we go on please? And there you see, the next slide is of course the Velodrome d'Hiver, which is the winter centre where in the summer… Do you remember they couldn’t do it on bus D-Day because the Vichy officials explained that it might cause problems. So the roundups were in the 16th to the 19th of July in the heat of summer in the most appalling conditions, men, women, and children. And then just to see again, if you will, can we see those propaganda posters? And remember they come out of Vichy. This is terribly important. These are Vichy propaganda posters.
Bearing in mind that following the occupation, millions of French Jews fled to Vichy. Now, Theodor Dannecker is sent to France by Eichmann, and he is the man in charge. In January 1941, he established a coordinating committee of Jewish relief organisations in France. This is the same as the Judenrate, the policy that evil policy that the Nazis employed, that they put the Jews in charge of other Jews. So there were those operating on behalf of French Jews and those operating on behalf of foreign Jews. And, of course, he is engaged in a complete propaganda war against the Jews. And he is responsible, the whole umbrella organisation is called the General Union of Israelites. And it is the organisation responsible for coordinating. They were the people who sent doctors into the Velodrome into Drancy. It’s so, so cynical. Now, what sort of man was Thomas Dannecker? He was the captain in charge of deportations from France in 1942, from Bulgaria in 1943 and Italy in 1944. He was a young Bavarian lawyer from Munich, Hitler City. He was one of Eichmann’s main aids. He was sent to Paris in September 1940 to head up the Jewish section. And it was his job to make sure that the French collaborators worked on the Jewish question. The Vallat who was the first commissary for Jewish affairs, he described him, quote unquote, “as a fanatical Nazi” who went into a trance every time the word Jew was mentioned. He continued in his appalling murders. He was actually arrested at the end of the war by the Americans and he committed suicide in custody rather than face justice. Can we come on to the next one? Heinz Rothke. March the sixth, 1944, read that, “The transport of Jews from France must not be allowed to stop before the last Jews left French soil and this must happen before the end of the War.”
As I said to you last week, and I had last time, and I have a few notes about this, there were two wars being fought, the World War and the war against the Jews. In the end, it becomes almost a fantasy. The fact that the Nazis knew how powerless the Jews really were, they show 'em, and yet they still believed in the power of world jury. This is the insanity of Nazis. Now Heinz Rothke, 1912 to 1966. He studied, he was a student of theology and then took a PhD in law from the University of Berlin. So what could we establish about him? He took a degree in theology and then he has a doctorate in law. I cannot reiterate more. I can’t reiterate enough how important it is to understand that an academic education means absolutely nothing. He was Dannecker’s deputy. And in the spring of '42, he took over from him. And it was under his supervision that Jewish women, children and the elderly started to be sent to the camps and he was in this role until August 1944. He was sentenced to death by a French court in absentia. Believe it or not, he returned to Germany, he resumed his career as a lawyer, he also had an SS pension, He lived undisturbed in Wolfsburg where he lived a very, very comfortable life and died a natural death in July 1966. Justice is such an ephemeral thing, isn’t it?
Carl Oberg, head of the SS and police, in Occupied France, '42 to 1945. Born in Hamburg, the son of a professor of medicine. Awarded the Iron Cross in the First World War, a war hero, part of the Kapp Putsch an early supporter of Hitler’s suffered as a result of the economic crisis in Germany, unemployed till 1932 Knows Heydrich, Heydrich takes him into the SD, he becomes an SS colonel in 1935. He’s Heydrich’s right hand man. Heydrich, the man that Hitler said, the man with the iron heart. The man who, of course, was in charge of the protector of Bohemia and Moravia, assassinated by Czech partisans, the man who was responsible for convening the conference. So he’s Heydrich’s right hand man. There’s differences. So he goes back to SS duties and in September '41, He is the police chief in Radom in Poland, and he participates in the murder of Jews in Poland and SS Major General in 1942. He’s sent to Paris as Himmler’s personal representative to take control of the SS and the SD, the SS-und Polizeifuhrer. He made sure that the French groups of collaborationists, that they were all doing exactly what they were meant to do. He was responsible for the wearing of the Jew badge and was very incredibly tough reprisals against the Resistance. He retreated to Germany in December '44 under Himmler’s command. He was arrested by the US, the US forces, extradited to France, sentenced to death in 1954, commuted to life imprisonment by presidential pardon, de Gaulle, and repatriated to Germany in 1965. Okay?
Justice Klaus Barbie, the Butcher of Lyon, the man that I’m sure you’ve read about, the trial of Klaus Barbie, which did so much to bring the French to the realisation of just how much collaboration there had been in the Second World War. Because as I explained to you last week, and I’m sure many of you read about this, it was important to the allies that France was on the side of the allies. So let’s talk a little about Klaus Barbie. He’s born in Bonn. It is patrilineal line. He’s a French origin. His first thought as a student was to study theology and to become an academic, but he was conscripted into the Nazi Labour Service. Then he joined the SS, he was assigned to Amsterdam where he worked for Eichmann, rounding up Dutch, Jews and Freemasons. You see, this is a man who wanted to study theology. As I’ve said to you so often, Wendy and I, we’ve talked a lot about leadership. We’ve talked about a lot about what motivates people. And by giving you these sketches, I think what we’ve got to try and work out each on our own way, what it is, what does it do, what does it take to make us see the humanity in others? So he’s sent to occupied France, age 29. He’s assigned to Lyon as head of the Gestapo. His headquarters are in the Hotel Terminus, there’s a film called, “Hotel Terminus.” He, personally, he was an absolute monster. He personally tortured, he enjoyed torture of both children and adult prisoners. He was incredibly sadistic.
He was responsible for the death of over 14,000 prisoners, including the great hero of the French Resistance Jean Moulin. In 1943, he was awarded the Iron Cross for his campaign against the Resistance. And in April '44, in such a disgustingly cruel act, he ordered the deportation of 44 Jewish children from an orphanage to Auschwitz but more about that later on. After the war… Now this is where life becomes very strange. He became a counter intelligent agent for the Americans in Germany. In 1951, he immigrated to Bolivia, he settled in La Paz. He acquired Bolivian citizenship. He took the pseudonym Klaus Altmann. In 1952 and again in 1954, he’s tried in absentee in France. He was discovered in 1971 that Klaus Altmann was in fact Klaus Barbie by Beate Klarsfeld. And it was only in 1983 that the Bolivians finally expelled him. Remember again, he was tried for crimes against human crimes against humanity. The specific charges, because this is what the Klarsfeld had to do, raid on the Union General of Israelites of France on February the ninth, '42, where 85 Jews were arrested and taken to Auschwitz and also the deportation of the 44 children. And also, now this is unbelievable, he ordered the last transport, August the 11th, 1944 from Lyon, 842 people on it, half of them Jewish, the other half members of the Resistance, August the 11th, 1944.
Killing Jews is more important than winning the war. His trial was so controversial. It really raised the spectrum of French’s collaboration. And unfortunately, believe it or not, it also raised the level of antisemitism in France. He was found guilty and he was sentenced to life imprisonment. He died in jail. And, it really divided France because it did make many people come to terms… Because you’ve got to remember, there’s also a divided France. If you think of the great intellectuals of France postwar, so many of them were Jewish. And not only that they were liberal, but here you have this spectre, people like Barbie and the conservative right, still raising the spectra of anti-Semitism. Now, let’s go on to perhaps for me the most complicated character of all, Alois Brunner. And I’m going to say, I haven’t made this up because when I tell the tale, you’re going to think, “Is this really true?” He was Eichmann’s right hand man. He was in charge of ordering over a hundred thousand Jews to their deaths. Austrian Jews, Greek Jews, French Jews, Slovakian Jews. He becomes the commander of Drancy between June '43 and August '44. And during his period, 24,000 men, women and children deported to Auschwitz. He was an Austrian. So he joined the illegal Nazi party when he was 16.
Remember in Austria, even though under Dollfuss there was Austrofascism, Dollfuss was an Austrian nationalist and the Nazi party was illegal. So in 1933, when Hitler came to power, he moved to Germany and he joined a Nazi paramilitary group, the Austrian Legion, which they were going to be used to cause… They were going to try and cause as much trouble for the Austrian government and to smuggle Nazi propaganda into Austria. And after Anschluss, he volunteered for the SS and was assigned to the Central Office for Jewish Emigration. He’s its director in 1939. Now remember at the end of '38, Eichmann sets up an immigration bureau in Vienna. At the beginning of '39, he sets up an immigration bureau in Berlin. They want the Jews out of Germany and Austria. This is what Uriel Weinreich meant. And you are then back to that terrible issue. Did the Nazis, did Hitler and his cohort always intend to murder the Jews? It would seem that up until the invasion of Russia, what they really wanted is Jews out of the sphere of influence. So that takes us to the terrible canard, that if the countries of the world had opened their doors, certainly all of German Jewry and Austrian Jewry can be saved. And I said to you yesterday, which is the day before yesterday, which is perhaps outside my brief, but I think the teaching of Holocaust studies without talking about '45 to '48 and Israel and the establishment of the state of Israel is absolutely is madness because it’s important to understand the factors that led to the creation of the state of Israel.
And why Israel on the passionate need for a justification for a Jewish state. And I’m making no political comments here whatsoever. So… He then in March 39 goes to Prague to speed up the deportation of Czech Jews. They want to rob them blind but get them out. And this is where, of course, we have the problems of governments refusing visas. But you also have on the light side, the the bright side of the moon, there were many diplomats who were prepared to risk everything to issue visas. And there were some incredibly brave people. But this is the whole period of getting the Jews out. And if you read the British press, and I’m sure the same is true from the Canadian and American press, the right wing press was so against the opening of the doors to refugees, the whole refugee issue never goes away. And also the British in May 1939, more or less closed the doors to Palestine. So this is the trap, and this is the man who is doing everything he can for his mentor and boss, Adolf Eichmann, also an Austrian, as it were robbed the Jews of all their possessions. And after the war, he works with Eichmann on the Nisko Plan. They’re thinking of other solutions, the Jewish issue, Nisko was a reservation area in Poland and they were thinking of deporting all the Jews there. But then you had problems with Frank, who was the governor of Poland. The Jews are going to be feeders. How do we feed? They’re no longer people. “It’s the problem of feeding these vermin, these lice.” This is the language that’s used. They also talked about Madagascar, which had been a French plan. “Let’s deport them all to the Island of Madagascar.” We don’t know exactly when the final order was given, but we know the murders begin with the invasion of Russia.
So over time, he was responsible, this man was responsible for the deportation of 56,000 Austrian Jews. In October '42, he’s transferred to Berlin. He had a very violent personality and very, very cruel. Before he was made commander of Drancy, in June '43, he was responsible for transporting 46,000 Salonikan Jews. In '44, he sent to Slovakia. And in the last days of the war, he managed to deport a further 13 and a half thousand Jews from Slovakia. Remember, the war is coming to an end. At Drancy, he was remembered for incredible brutality. He liked personal interrogations. He was personally responsible to Eichmann, he avoided the chain of command. He was close to Adolf Eichmann. So he continues arrests and deportation even as the allies advanced on Paris. And when the German army was retreating, he had 1,327 Jewish children arrested and deported between the 20th and 24th of July, 1944. So that’s… And then, of course, I’ve already mentioned to you the last train from Drancy. We also with resistance characters. he thought he’d be able to use as hostages. From the 30th of September to the 31st of March, he was involved in smashing the Jewish underground in Slovakia, where he had 11,500 people deported. Now in 1985, in an interview with a West German magazine, Bunte, he described his own escape because you can see from those figures, he made it out. He was mixed up with a man called Anton Brunner, who was executed for war crimes. He didn’t have an SS blood tattoo, claimed he’d found work as an American driver, alleged he had a working relationship with an organisation called the Gehlen Organisation.
This is again, a US intelligence unit headed by Reinhard Gehlen, who was formally a Wehrmacht major general. You’ve got to remember at the end of the war, Germany was divided, West and East Germany. And I talked about this last week. What on earth did the allies want? They wanted a buffer against communism. So as a result, some of these appalling SS characters finished up working for the Americans. He was in West Germany. He flees West Germany in 1954 with a fake Red Cross passport. And as many of you know, they were actually issued through the Vatican. He goes first to Rome and then to Egypt. In Egypt he is working for Nasser as a weapons dealer and then he goes to Syria. He takes on the pseudonym, Dr Georg Fischer. And in Syria, he was a government advisor. He worked with the Syrian regime on intelligence. And you can imagine what that meant in terms of the work he was doing against Israel. Both Klarsfeld and Simon Wiesenthal tried to locate him but East German negotiations with Syria in the 1980s to have him extricate. Finally, in the end, East Germans… Remember they hate the West Germans, they try and have him extradited to East Germany but the fall of the Berlin War, stop this. In 1987, there was a telephone interview with a Chicago Sun, “All the Jews deserved, quote, "All the Jews deserved to die because they were the Devil’s agents and human garbage. I have no regrets and would do it again.” And early 1990s, we know he was living in Damascus. We know he met with East German nationals.
And according to the Guardian, the British Guardian newspaper, he was last seen alive by reliable witnesses in 1992. We also know that in both 1961 and 1980, letter bombs were sent to him in Damascus. In 1961, he lost an eye. And in 1980, the fingers of the left hand. And we know that Mossad was behind both attacks. Not only were they attacking these people as ex-Nazis, they’re attacking them because they are working on weapons programmes and teaching the Syrians and Egyptians intelligence tactics. You know, they’ve carried their hatred of Jews into the Middle East. Both Germany, West Germany and France requested his extradition. He was twice sentenced to death in absentia. There was a $330,000 reward. On the 2nd of March, 2001, he was found guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity, no statute of limitations in a French court. Klarsfeld’s father was reportedly who was murdered, was reportedly one of his victims. Efraim Zuroff, you remember Efraim Zuroff, who has spoken on lockdown. He’s head of the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in Jerusalem. He received information that he had died. It’s conflicting. Some information said 2001. But in fact, Efraim Zuroff’s information is, he died in 2010, age 97. And that came from a former German secret service agent. So he spends his last year’s training the Syrian intelligence staff. Evidently, they kept him on the house arrest in a Damascus basement.
And he went by the name of Abu Hussein and converted to Islam. So what extraordinary story is, but I’m going to finish on a hero because we are switching now and I think this is going to happen to wait for the next session. There are some extraordinary heroes. So can we please go on to a man called Georges Mandel? He’s born Louis George Rothschild. he was the son of a tailor from Alsace. The family moved to France because they wanted to be French citizens after the Franco-Prussian War. And Alsace, of course, became part of Germany. He became a journalist, was a brilliant man. He worked on the L'Aurore, it was a literary and socialist paper founded by Clemenceau and Zola. And, of course, Zola wrote his very important article in it. He was a great defender of Dreyfus. And the paper went on until 1916. He was brought into politics. He’s a brilliant journalist. He’s brought into politics by Clemenceau. So he becomes the right hand man to Clemenceau. And in 1919 he becomes a member of the Chamber of Deputies. And by 1932, he was Chairman of the Chamber’s universal suffrage committee. He was very much on the side of liberalism. He believed in woman’s suffrage.
Remember how late woman’s suffrage was in France? It led to the bill that enfranchised women, but it was actually rejected by the Senate. In 1934. he’s the Minister of Posts and he oversaw the first television transmission in France. He was economically conservative. He was an outspoken critic of Nazism and fascism. He advocated actually a military alliance with Russia. He was violently against appeasement. He was the minister of colonies between '38 and 1940. He was briefly Minister of the Interior. And after Germany invaded Poland, he wanted an offensive war immediately. And he was accused by Petain and the right of putting Jewish interests before French interests. In fact, on the 16th of June, 1940, when Petain was asked to form a government, Mandel was arrested but released. British General Spears, who was Churchill’s military liaison officer offered him a place on the plane. He was considered very important by the British. He was very popular. In fact, the British wanted him to lead the free French, not de Gaulle. And they said to him, “You’re in danger, come out on a plane.” He refused, and he said, “You fear for me because I am a Jew. Well, it is just because I am a Jew that I will not go tomorrow; it would look as though I was afraid, as if I was running away.” Let me repeat this because in the darkness of the characters I’ve talked about, this is Mandel. “"You fear for me because I am a Jew. Well, it is just because I am a Jew I will not go tomorrow; it would look as though I was afraid, and running away.”
So on the 21st of June, he went with other government deputies including Pierre Mendès France to North Africa to continue the fight. He is arrested on the 8th of August on the orders of Laval, who’s prime minister of Vichy. As I said, Churchill was desperate to rescue him. He described him as the first resistor and would prefer to have him. As I said, let me reiterate, he wanted him as the minister in London leading the free French. You know, the ifs and buts of history. He was a completely different character to the extraordinary but incredibly egocentric de Gaulle. He was, of course, imprisoned. And in July, 1944, he was actually executed by Milice, the paramilitaries of Vichy. And Sarkozy actually wrote a biography of him. He is one of the great heroes of the left. Now, because I’m running out of time and I want to do justice to all these individuals, can we just run through the slides. There’s one or two of the quotations I’d like you to read before we finish today’s session. So Jean Moulin. these are the heroes and I’m going to talk about them in a lot of depth. Abraham Polonski, yes. Get to know these characters. Lucien Lublin. These are Jewish, rescuers and also Jewish resistors. Ariadna Scriabina, is of course, Scriabin been the great musician’s daughter. I mentioned her before. Can we go on please? A Jewish army was established. These are the revisionist.
The communists were the largest group of resistors but there was also a group of revisionist. “I swear fidelity to the Jewish Army. And obedience to its leaders. May my people live again. May the land of Israel reborn. Liberty or death.” This is the watchword. Can we go on please? I want them to see the last. Jacques Lazarus, another extraordinary resistor. Loinger. This will interest you. Marcel Marceau, young man, member of the… Lucien Lazare who writes so much about it. Still alive, bless him. And let’s have a look. And Cassin one of my greatest heroes. Now this is from Kolenu, the Journal of Jewish Resistance. This is my last thought. And remember this is when all the horror is happening. “Every Jew in France clearly understands that the only thing that can ensure the Jewish people salvation is the life and death struggle between us and the Hitlerians. This alone will ensure the survival of the Jewish people… We will attack the enemy wherever it be found. We will embitter its life…” And as I said, 20% of the whole of the Resistance were Jews. Let’s be very careful when we talk about… Let’s go like they went, like sheep to the slaughter. That is completely untrue. So I’m going to stop there. And, Emily, if you don’t mind making a note of where I’ve got up to. I will continue next time. And may I take the opportunity to wish you all. It’s Hanukkah, it’s the Festival of Light, it’s the festival, one of our miracles and also a happy secular New year. And let’s have a look at the questions.
Q&A and Comments:
Oh, this Myrna. Just found out there’s a large Bukharan community in Arizona. They gave a fascinating programme at our show. Yes, I’ve learned a lot about them now and I’d like to thank the lady who got in touch. And also luckily my colleague Glenn Julius has sent me something.
This is from Peter. When I visited Paris, I was surprised to see the French team to have cancelled any mention of the enlightenment thinkers. I went to the rural, I went back at the salon, nothing. I went to the Gleason Road, where did buried? Nothing. Where did I find evidence of of enlightenment thinking was in Tel Aviv, inn Ben-Gurion’s Library. A shoulder heights to the right of the infants to the room where Ben-Gurions sat was an excellent collection of enlightenment thinkers. I believe that enlightenment thought is more evident in Israel than in France. Peter, be careful. There are still those who treasure that tradition. It’s just, I suppose particularly after the talk I’ve just given… When I’ve looked at those collaborators and the Nazis and also the lack of justice.
Naomi Buonanno. Thank you. Thank you. If anyone should be interested, I’d give talks on my family memoir from Tashkent to Paris, which speaks about my Bulgarian father’s escape from Stalin, Russia. Right, thank you very much. Eve, can you take note of that please? Emily?
Q: Were there Catholic priests and bishops who wanted to save young Jewish children and convert them?
A: There were some but there were others who kept lists of Jewish children so they could be returned. There was a problem with Pius XII. Pius XII. If children had been converted and there were surviving relatives, he made it very difficult for the children to be returned.
Yes, Bosquet remained Mitterand’s visitor, yes.
Please discuss books. Please suggest books that discuss Vichy and the Jews. I will get that for you. I’m working on a whole bibliography. There’s no other word for it now.
Q: Assassination of Bosquet, can you tell us about that?
A: He was evidently deranged, that was the problem.
I highly recommend the film “La Raffle.” They round up the story of the Velodrome. Thank you Marion.
Hello, this is… Hi Rose. This year at the commemoration of Hippodrome catastrophe. Macron spoke that sadly one of the people present is a vehement antis of Semite. She’s going to find out. Susan, my husband who is listening at my side, missed the raffle by a few hours. At age three, he and his mom were tipped off by a concierge who said it would be a nice day tomorrow, “Maybe take your little boy out of the city.” Then he added, “Not a good day for people like you to be here.” Somehow he knew and his mother got the cryptic message. They escaped, the aunt and uncle, they did not choose to join them, were not so lucky. They were rounded up the next day. One postcard from Grand C, then death in Auschwitz. My husband Edmond will be 84 years old tomorrow. A miracle in the tragedy, never to be forgotten.
Oh, Susan. Oh Edmond, may we wish you a very, very happy birthday and I hope that your life now is a good life with your lovely wife who wrote that. It’s heartbreaking. Crimes against humanity was part of the US team was first used in Utrecht.
Hold on, Julian, I think it was also… Yes, it was Hersch Lautherpacht. It was Hersch Lautherpacht and Raphael Lemkin. Crimes of genocide and it wasn’t used at Nuremberg, Wasn’t it also in the declaration? They were working on it. It’s a very… I’m going to have to check this, but I will take your word for it. It is not my field but it’s a very interesting one. And, of course, it had to be two Polish Jews, Lempkin and Lauterpacht, who came up with these categories.
Yes, this is Marion. You can see many documentaries about the shamble and talk to me. Yes. Yes, they are alive. It would be interesting.
Q: What does it say about de Gaulle that partners these collaborators?
A: In all work environments, people are promoted to a level of incompetence and this very much shows how more times so many become monsters. There’s a YouTube documentary how the Catholic Church protected a treacherous Nazi, Paul Touvier. Yeah.
Q: What about Celine the violent anti-Semitic writer?
A: I’m actually going to leave him to one of my literary colleagues, either to Professor Piemer or to Patrick.
And Rita has also mentioned that documentary.
This is from Jonathan, the TV series of “French Village,” which I found very interesting, well done includes also the treatment of Jews during the war and I would recommend it. Many of those who are anti-Jewish point to unfairness to Arabs of settling up state of Israel because European killed Jew, claim unfair colonisation. Aren’t you afraid of that? That is a very, very long and complicated question and there’s a lot of answers to that. And let me think long and hard about it. No glib answers to that.
This is from Michael. In Paris, near the show on museum on the Wright Bank, there’s an alley Geli Jews. Many of the people who have their names on the wall and nuns and priests who saved Jews. Yes, and I’m going to talk about this next time or the time after. Michael, you’re totally right. And as I said, there were a group of bishops who bravely stood out and archbishops in many regions and instructed their nuns and monks to save Jews and they did. So it’s not… And many Huguenot saved Jews like the whole of Le Chambon. It’s not an easy picture. I’ve started looking at the evil ones. Gradually, I’m going more and more into the light with the good ones. And the whole question is what makes people into saviours? What makes people into monsters?
Please repeat the title of the recently published book of Emile Zola. Can’t remember, Carol. Can someone else?
The movie, “Au revoir les enfants” is a wonderful movie. Yes it is. It is, Michael.
Q: Can we have the story of Marcel Marceau?
A: You will next time.
Q: What percentage of the Jewish population of France perished in the Holocaust?
A: 77,000 out of a population of about 350,000. You see that’s the point. That’s one of the other issues of France. Although 77,000 is an obscene number, if you compare it to the percentages in other countries, it’s much less. So that’s why we’ve got so many difficulties with France.
This is from Naomi. I recently heard that Luis Castellanos saved 40,000 Jews by issuing false El Salvador passports from Switzerland. Yes, there were an incredible number of diplomats who saved. There are the good people. Never forget that.
Q: Can you say anything about Jean Moulin whose sons were Resistance members, won, captured, and killed?
A: When I come onto the Resistance, yes. Mike.
Monod, he did his Nobel Prize winning work while fighting, isn’t that extraordinary? Just heard a lecture by Rosette Gerbozi and her experience growing up in the Mere, it’s on YouTube. Thank you.
This is from Susan Irish. I only watched a film called “Resistance,” but the incredible and extraordinary worker, Marcel Marceau in rescuing Jewish children in France. Sadly, the film was criticised because it contained untrue stories, including an episode involving Klaus Barbie. Whenever in fact was involved in Marceau’s story. I understand more truthful account is being made with the support of Marceau’s family. Thank you Susan. Lovely to hear from you.
Yes. Funny Bernstein, read the book “East West Street” by Phillips Sand, all is explained. Yes, he has actually spoken twice on lockdown. I guess it’s time to invite him again.
“East West Street.” Abba Kovner, when he rallied for people, said, “Let us not go to our deaths like sheep to the slaughter.” This quote has been turned in the opposite that we were… Yes. “Let us not go to our deaths like sheep to the slaughter.” The problem with that quote, Dita, is it still implies that they did. And unfortunately in Israel it was a problem for survivors. It’s that is a very dark, deep story and it’s one that needs to be told by psychologists.
Anyway, I think that’s it, isn’t it? Thanks Emily and thank you all very much.