Trudy Gold
Churchill, the Jews and the War Years

Trudy Gold | Churchill, the Jews and the War Years | 07.20.21

- Hello everyone, and I hope everyone’s feeling okay. I know it’s very, what’s going on is becoming even more traumatic. At least we’ve got Lockdown and we’re a big family. And what can I say? And to our friends in South Africa, I just hope you’re all bearing up. And in the questions, it would be lovely if you told us where you come from so that we get a notion of where people are living at the moment. So that would be lovely. I have a question, I think.

• [Wendy] No, Trudy, we’ve got Eddie in New Jersey, Maxine from Cape Town, Ronnie from Cape Town, Amy in Primrose Hill. Look what you started two minutes before we go live.

• I think it’s lovely. It’s lovely because goodness knows when we will ever really go travelling again. Do you really think we will?

• [Wendy] Well, I am in Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire if anyone’d like to know where I am today, and it’s very hot. Hi, Adrian from Israel. We got Joel in Dallas. Well, Trudy, it’s now gone 7:32. Welcome, everybody. Welcome, Bob in Memphis. Trudy, I’m going to hand over to you.

Visuals displayed throughout the presentation.

• Thank you, darling. Well, wherever you are, welcome. And today I continue on the theme of Churchill, and of course today I’m going to be looking at the war years. Yesterday what I finished with was actually the White Paper on Palestine where the British government finally decided that the Balfour Declaration didn’t really mean anything. And what they did was it was to be 15,000 admissions a year for five years, and then whoever has the majority has the state. And what this virtually does is to slam the doors closed at a time when the Jews were most vulnerable. Remember this is 1939 when Adolf Hitler had a judenrein policy. The judenrein policy lasts right up until the summer of 1941.

He wanted his Jews out. And ironically, the attitude of the Western powers, which included the British government in Palestine, did we could say to the very least exacerbate the situation. I read you the speech that Churchill gave in the House of Commons. He was violently against the White Paper. Basically Neville Chamberlain said, look, if we’ve got to offend one of them, let us at least offend the Jews. Because basically the British realised they would need the Arabs in the Middle East, particularly if a war was looming. And one of the aspects of the whole thing that I touched on yesterday, it’s quite interesting, you know, that do you expect private individuals to have the same morality as that of a state?

I think we expect more, we expect far more from the private individual. And what we’re going to have to look at when we look at Churchill is a man who’s going to be fighting for the life of a country, and who I believe on the whole, his instincts towards the Jews were good. And I also want to say that after the White Paper debate, Josiah Wedgwood, who I’m going to be talking about in a couple of weeks, one of the great heroes of the British, he said the British are behaving like Nazis. So there were people in Parliament who are violently against the White Paper. And what is absolutely extraordinary is that on July the 13th, 1939, the British authorities in Palestine announced the suspension of all Jewish immigration until March, 1940.

And the reason given was there were so many illegals coming in. Because in a previous lecture, I have talked about the extraordinary number of ships that ran the gauntlet to Palestine. And what happened was, and these were run sometimes by the Haganah, sometimes by the Irgun, sometimes by private entrepreneurs to get refugees out of Europe. And what is also fascinating, quite often it happened with, believe it or not, the collusion of the Nazis. Why do I say this? Because the Nazis themselves wanted a judenrein Reich. And there were many, many, many boats. And two of the boats are going to play quite an important part in this story, and I’m going to talk about it later on.

Churchill finally comes into government after war breaks out. And it has to be said that in 1939, after the White Paper, Ben-Gurion says, “We will fight the White Paper as if there is no Hitler. We fight Hitler as if there is no White Paper.” So that was the promise. But the Irgun decided that the British were as bad as the Nazis, and they rejoined the fight against the British. So, and then war breaks out. War breaks out in 1939. Churchill is not going to become Prime Minister until May, 1940. And it’s at this stage that the Irgun decide with the Haganah to try and join the British Army. And they’re not allowed in. And I’ll be talking about that in a minute. And a splinter group led by Abraham Stern broke away and created what is known as the Stern Group or the Lehi. And they are going to fight the British throughout the whole of the war.

So let’s go back to London and let’s go back to the 19th of September, 1939. The Phoney War has begun. And it’s important to remember that there was still a great lobby for appeasement. Churchill was one of the few who really stood against any kind of appeasement with the Nazis. So even after war has broken out, there’s still support for some kind of deal, of actually to do a deal with Hitler. And there are many stories about that. And we know, for example, that Edward VIII, there was a plot by the Nazis to put Edward VIII back on the throne. We know that there was a club called the Friday Club, which was full of Nazi sympathisers at a very high level of society. And Churchill was never tarred with any of these kind of appalling things. And he was very close still to Chaim Weizmann.

If you can imagine how Weizmann felt, he’d put all his faith in the British, he had believed in the honour of England, but after the White Paper, as I mentioned yesterday, he’s still going to be incredibly useful to the Zionists, but the leadership now is under the command of David Ben-Gurion, who is far more militant. But on the 19th of September, 1939, Weizmann dined with Churchill. They are close. And Churchill suggested that Weizmann actually prepare a list of requirements of what he needed with regards to the participation of Palestinian Jews in the war effort. And Weizmann actually said to him, look, there are 75,000 Jews in Palestine who’ve registered for national service. Churchill asked if they were armed which they weren’t, but he couldn’t change the Cabinet’s mind about this.

You know, those of you who are very critical of Churchill, even after he was prime minister, he did not have dictatorial powers. He had to work through his Cabinet. And he is in favour from the beginning of a Jewish army in Palestine. But the authorities, the Cabinet Office and also the Foreign Office and those in Palestine are against it. The British administration in Palestine was becoming more and more hostile to Zionism. And I’ll talk about that later on. On the 17th of December, 1939 at another meeting, Weizmann, this is all in Weizmann’s autobiography, Weizmann told Churchill that after the war, we want a state for 3 or 4 million people. And evidently Churchill said yes, I quite agree with that. And Churchill’s theme throughout the war was that there should be no permanent restriction on Jewish immigration, but the future of Palestine should be determined by a peace conference.

And he said this. “They are the only trustworthy friend we have in Palestine. The sound policy for Great Britain at the beginning of the war would’ve been the buildup as soon as possible of a strong Jewish armed force in Palestine. It is an extraordinary position. At the same time, when war was entering its most dangerous phase, we should station in Palestine a garrison, a quarter of the size of our garrison in India, for the purpose of forcing through an unpopular policy.”

Because not only before war broke out with the Irgun fighting the British, the Haganah is also running the boats to Palestine. And they are having to send out naval garrisons to stick to a policy to keep the Arabs on side. And ironically, those of you who listened to Lyn Julius’s lectures on the Jews of the Arab world will know that there were anti-British uprisings. There was a pro-Nazi uprising in Iraq. Syria, of course comes under the Vichy regime. So ironically, all the carefully laid plans of the Foreign Office as far as the Arabs were concerned, they don’t pay off. But nevertheless, the situation, Churchill is Prime Minister. And even when Churchill is Prime Minister, certain things are going to happen, which I know many of you will find quite strange and bizarre.

But as I said to you, he doesn’t have total power. And I suppose one of the first things that happens that when we think about it today we have very mixed feelings is of course, after the invasion of the low countries, there was a movement to intern enemy aliens. Now if you think of the 65,000 German and Austrian Jews and Czech Jews who’d been allowed into Britain finally, many of them over 16 were now to be interned. And of course, quite often they were interned with pro-Nazis. And it was an extraordinary situation, gradually remedied. But just to show you the absurdity of it on one level, those of you who live in my area in Hampstead, I’m in West Hampstead, it’s absolutely just after the invasion of Holland by the Nazis, MI6 surrounded Hampstead Library and took away 13 Middle European Jews.

They were in the reading room, reading, studying. And they also made arrests in Heath Street in Hampstead. So this is under Churchill’s watch, but how much did he get involved? And now the main bio, the main issue, main book on Churchill is of course “Churchill and the Jews” by Martin Gilbert. Churchill was adored by Martin. He was his official biographer, and there are others who are far more critical. But having said that, and I want to say this, I said it to you yesterday, to me, Churchill is still a hero. If it hadn’t been for Churchill, I know I wouldn’t have been here. And the speech he made when he rallied the nation, Josiah Wedgwood, who I’m going to talk about as I’ve already mentioned, he actually said “This speech was worth a thousand speeches. This is the speech that really did save a nation.”

And we’ve got to remember that his instincts were good. Could he have done more? That is very much what extremists in Palestine believed, but I’m sure we’ll come to all of that later on. So the war is now progressing. Let’s talk a little bit about the ships. Now, the first ship I want to bring to your attention is the Patria. Now another area which has been completely distorted by enemies of Israel, you know this terrible calumny, that the Jews, the Zionists and the Nazis collaborated in the war. Now, one of the issues where the Jewish Agency did deal with the Central Office for Jewish Immigration was to try and save Jews.

Bearing in mind that Hitler had a judenrein policy, Eichmann was in charge of the immigration office. He set up an office in Vienna in 1938, in Berlin in the beginning of ‘39. His purpose was to rob the Jews blind and then to kick them out. Now more and more countries had closed their doors to the Jews. Ironically, the Polish government, which was particularly anti-Semitic, had been trying to help Jews get to Palestine. You know, we want the Jews out as well. And the British were putting pressure before the war on the Poles to stop it because it was offending the Arabs. Anyway. You have Eichmann’s organisation cooperating with the Zionists in an attempt to bring Jews from Europe to Palestine in violation of the White Paper.

And remember, the British have said no immigration up until March '44, and then it’s only 15,000 a year for five years at a time when the Nazis are on the march. Gradually the whole of Europe is becoming under Nazi control. In September, 1940, three ships, the SS Pacific, the SS Milos, and the SS Atlantic took Jewish refugees from a Romanian port. They took out 3,800 people, mainly from Vienna, Danzig and Prague. The Pacific reached Palestine on the 1st of November, 1940, Milos a few days later. The Royal Navy, remember there’s a war on, but the Royal Navy intercepted the boats and took them to Haifa. The British High Commissioner, Sir Harold MacMichael, issued a deportation order on the 20th of November for them to be taken to Mauritius and Trinidad. The refugees were transferred then to a British ship, the SS Patria.

It had been a French ship that was in harbour, in Haifa Harbour, which was requisitioned by the British. And the ship was completely ill-equipped for the voyage. The Zionists in Palestine did everything they could. There’s huge publicity. They tried to thwart the plan. And there’s worldwide protest. The Haganah decided to place a bomb on the ship to disable it. However they miscalculated and the ship tragically sunk within 16 minutes. It had been carrying 1,770 refugees. Most of them were rescued by the British Navy and Arab boats actually. But over 209 bodies were recovered. And then they were taken to Atlit detention camp. And because of international pressure, the survivors of the Patria were allowed to stay.

But after, the Atlantic passengers were deported to Mauritius on the 9th of December, 1940. And ironically, you know, it’s interesting because according to , Sir Harold MacMichael, I beg your pardon, these people are not really Zionists. And ironically, after the war, 90% of them decided to go to Palestine. Anyway, so this is what is really ratcheting up Zionist hatred of what’s going on with the British. Now the other ship that I’m going to mention now, and I’ll be coming back to it is on the 24th of February, 1942. And this is of course the Struma.

This was a ship, this is after the Final Solution was begun. The Final Solution begins with the invasion of Russia in June of 1941. So this is nearly eight months later. And because remember how porous Europe is, you can still get people out. And the ship, these are private entrepreneurs, Zionist leaders, incredibly brave people doing everything they can. They attempted to get 800 refugees to Palestine from Axis Romania to Palestine. Excuse me, I’m dropping my papers, dangerous.

Anyway, it was an old ramshackle ship and the diesel engine engine failed between her departure from Constanta and Istanbul. The engine was inoperable, it’s neutral Turkey, and the Turkish authorities towed her from Istanbul through the Bosporus, and it was sunk, not known until recently who actually sunk the Struma. But the Struma disaster along with the Patria becomes a rallying point for the Jews of Palestine and the Jews worldwide. The British were blamed. On the 9th of June, 1942, Josiah Wedgwood opened the debate on it in the House of Commons.

And he said this. “I hope yet to live to see those who sent the Struma cargo back to the Nazis hung as high as Haman, cheek by jowl, with the prototype of Adolf Hitler.” Now later on there’s going to be huge repercussions over the Struma. And it’s interesting because I’ll just tell you a very strange personal story. I used to officially work for the British government on the ITF, which is now IHRA. And this was a worldwide organisation on Holocaust education. And my official boss on this particular role was at the Foreign Office. And I had a phone call from him saying, “Should we apologise for this Struma? Please tell me all about it.”

I mean, that just shows you how officials work. Now, what has come out since the collapse of communism, it was actually the Soviets who bombed the Struma. But nevertheless at the time it was believed to be bombed by the British. So you can imagine it’s ratcheting up the whole situation of what is going on with the Jews, and it’s becoming more and more desperate. And of course, with the invasion of Russia, 21st of June, 1941, Bletchley Park. Now Bletchley Park was a great listening centre in London. And who was manning it?

Gradually the internees are being let out of prison. It’s mainly manned by German and Austrian and Czech Jews because they have the language. And Bletchley Park begins to receive information of the murders. And Churchill sent a memorandum to Bletchley. The fact that the police are killing all Jews that fall into their hands should be sufficiently well-appreciated. On the 14th of November, 1941, he sent a message to “The Jewish Chronicle”. “None have suffered more cruelly than the Jews. The unspeakable evils wrought on the bodies and spirits of men by Hitler and his vile regime, the Jews bore the brunt of the Nazi’s first onslaught upon the citizens of freedom and human dignity.

It is also borne and continues to bear a burden that might seem to be beyond endurance. He has not allowed it to break his spirit. He has never lost the will to resist. Assuredly in the days of victory, the Jew’s suffering and his part in the struggle will not be forgotten. Once again, at the appointed time, he will be vindicated in those principles of righteousness, which was his glory and the glory of his fathers to proclaim to the world.” According to Churchill, the Jewish fate in Palestine was very much tied to the fate of the Jews in Europe. And he made sure that Jewish immigrants were to remain, were allowed.

If you were an illegal and you got there, he overrode the High Commissioner and said they could stay there without certificates. So illegal immigrants, they aren’t going to be deported if they can get in. And this was much to the chagrin of the High Commissioner and the British authorities at the Foreign Office, the Commissioner for refugees, and there’s a whole group of them who are Arabist and are violently against this policy. The other thing they talk about was that the Jews are not a nationality. The Jews are just a religious grouping. And why should we put the British empire on the line to do this?

There was an instant he was involved in. On the ship, the Darien, the passengers were to be deported to Mauritius. He actually intervened on this one and he instructed Lord Moyne, and I’ll talk more about him in a moment, very close friend of Churchill, to release them. Moyne was totally against it at the time. And he felt that allowing these refugees in would upset the Arabs. Now the problem was with the Arabs, the Arab leadership, their official leader, Haj Amin al-Husseini, was now in Berlin, very much very important to the Nazi war effort, particularly in reviewing Nazi regiments, Muslim regiments of Nazis in Bosnia, and making the most vile antisemitic broadcasts to the Arab world.

Now July the fifth, 1942, the fighting is raging in North Africa. And Churchill writes to the Colonial Secretary, Lord Cranborne about the creation of a Jewish militia in Palestine. We should certainly give them a chance to defend themselves. You know, Palestine was under threat. If Rommel had been victorious, we now know that because one of the issues that you should understand is before the collapse of communism, many of the archives had been captured by the Russians. And that meant after the fall of communism, for the first time the West had access to many of these archives. And we now know that there were preparations for an Einsatzgruppen unit.

Once Rommel had cleaned up, being the great Rommel invariably called, as the great German general, once he’d cleaned up and mopped up and won, the Einsatzgruppen would’ve swept over Palestine. Now, so Churchill says “We should certainly give them a chance to defend themselves. It may be necessary to make an example of anti-Semitic officers and others in high places. If three or four was dismissed and reasons given, it would’ve had a salutary effect.” Now, General Spears, the British minister resident in Lebanon, he said, he wrote, “Churchill is too fond of the Jews.” And no orders were given to dismiss the officers.

Now critics of Churchill would say why on earth didn’t he follow through? He did give the order. And those who are far more favourably disposed would say, look, he is running a war. But nevertheless, he does give the order. But it’s only really when the army is bogged down in North Africa that gradually Jewish recruits are allowed in. Now again, on the 7th of September, 1942, there’s a report in “The Times”, “The unabated ruthlessness of the roundup by Vichy police”.

Look, it’s coming through Bletchley Park. I’ve discussed this with you on previous occasions, knowledge of the Shoah. When does it really, really come through? And it begins as early as August, 1941. So by the 7th of September, 1942, there’s much evidence and there’s a report in the “London Times”, “The unabated ruthlessness of the roundup by Vichy police”. This is the headline. “Recently a train containing 4,000 children, unaccompanied, without papers left Lyon for Germany.” I’m quoting, “The destination was.” Of course, you see we now know that the destination was Auschwitz. This wasn’t known at the time either in France or by any of the allies.

And Churchill in Parliament on the following day, “Brutal persecutions in every land into which German armies have broken have been augmented by the most bestial, the most squalid and the most senseless of all offences, namely the mass deportation of Jews from France with the pitiful horror attendant on the calculated and final scattering of families. This tragedy fills me with astonishment as well as indignation. When the hour of liberation strikes in Europe, as it will, it will also be the hour of retribution.”

There was a mass meeting on the 29th of October in the Albert Hall where leaders, both Jewish and Christian leaders, led a protest, public protest. Churchill was in America. But he sent a message to be read by William Temple, the Archbishop of Canterbury, who was incredibly pro-Jewish. In the '30s, he’d done everything he could to help bring as many refugees as possible into England. And this was Churchill’s message to the gathering. And it was quite, you know, there were all sorts of interesting people there, members of Parliament.

And I am going to, in the next few weeks, be talking about the righteous ones and the rescuers. “I cannot refrain from sending through you to the audience assembled under your chairmanship to protest against Nazi atrocities inflicted on the Jews. The systematic cruelty to which the Jewish people, men, women, and children, have been exposed under the Nazi regime are among the most terrible in history.”

And it goes on very much like this. Three days later, he sends a telegram to his friend Chaim Weizmann. This is the 2nd of November, 1942. Why? Because it’s the anniversary of the Balfour Declaration. 2nd of November, 1942, go back to the 2nd of November, 1917. “My thoughts are with you on this anniversary. Better days will surely come for your suffering people and for the great cause for which you have fought so bravely.” And he also sends a message to “The Jewish Chronicle”. And the message ends, “The day will come when he will see vindicated those principles of righteousness, which is his glory.”

And in the winter of 1942, the Jewish Agency in Jerusalem asked that 4 ½ thousand Jewish children from Bulgaria with 500 adults should be allowed to leave for Palestine. Request went to Churchill for visas, his response, “Bravo.” And this time the Colonial Secretary Stanley obtained transit visas through Turkey. And Britain agreed to take a further 29,000 children and adults but it had to be with the existing White Paper numbers, because remember, they’re not filling the quota of 15,000 and they needed 25,000 emergency certificates. And the response from officials in the Foreign Office, could this be justified to Muslim and Arab opinion?

It came to nothing because the Germans pressed the Bulgarians not to allow the children to leave. Haj Amin al-Husseini seems to be involved in this. So Churchill gives agreement. Nothing comes from it. And then of course, December the 17th, 1942, as you all know, finally, there’s so much evidence coming through. And it’s coming through Jan Karski who had escaped. He was a Polish patriot, member of the home army, an aristocrat. He’d managed to get into the Warsaw ghetto, get to the edge of Treblinka.

He comes back to London, to New York. He’s begging people to listen. There’s so much evidence. It’s coming through priests, it’s coming through organisations all over Europe, that finally on December the 17th, 1942, you have the Allied Declaration in London. And basically these are nine allied governments coming together basically saying that once the war is over, the Germans are going to pay for it. Now this goes on through '43, more and more requests, but then something happens that is really so painful. And that is the affair of Hungarian Jewry. Now, as you all know, because we’ve spent a lot of time on it, and those of you, I’m sure the majority of you online know, that Hungarian Jewry was not attacked until April, 1944.

And within three months, over half the Hungarian Jewish population had been dispatched to Auschwitz and murdered. Auschwitz had now revealed its secret. There had been escapees from Auschwitz. Five people have escaped, including Rudi Vrba, very interesting man who had a almost photographic memory. And he sent the report to London. The report came through. He was a Slovakian Jew. It was sent to the Allies in London. And Churchill, after receiving the Vrba report, he said, “This is probably the greatest crime ever committed in the whole history of the world. And it’s been done by scientific machinery, by nominally normal, civilised men in the name of a great state on one of the leading races in Europe.”

Now the Vrba report, this is when you begin to get requests to the allied governments to bomb the camps. And in fact, there’s going to be a lot of protests from the Allied leaders, from the Americans, from Churchill. And so much pressure’s going to be, because remember even the Pope intervened at this stage. So much pressure is put on that deportations do stop in July, by which time half of Hungarian Jewry had been murdered. At its height, Auschwitz was murdering 17,000 people in a 24-hour cycle.

That to me is beyond the nightmare of Dante. And this is when reports, not only are reports coming in, the British are also of course allowing parachute drops, but too little, too late to the Zionists in Palestine. And already Begin, who has taken over as commander of the Irgun, is fighting the British. So on the 6th of July, Anthony Eden, the foreign secretary, meets with Weizmann and Moshe Shertok. And they beg, beg the railway. They beg, please bomb the railway lines leading from Budapest to Birkenau. Eden informed Churchill. According to Sir Martin Gilbert, anything like this Churchill would always say, bring it up with the war Cabinet, or discuss it with the air ministry.

But this time instead, he responds on the 7th of July. He writes to Eden, “Is there any reason to raise the matter with the Cabinet? Get anything out of the Air Force you can. Invoke me if necessary.” Now what happens is that Sir Archibald Sinclair does not reply to the memo until the 16th. He passes it on to the Americans. Now in one of the most tragic interviews I’ve ever seen, Sir Martin Gilbert interviews people from Bomber Command. And they said that if they’d received the command and if they’d known it came from the victims, of course they would’ve tried to carry it out. And they were even shown maps because believe it or not, bombs did fall on Auschwitz by accident as they were bombing the Buna plant, which used slave labour.

So you have this aerial shot on Auschwitz, which Sir Martin Gilbert, and Rex Bloomstein who made a film about it called “Auschwitz and the Allies”, they actually showed it to people in Bomber Command for their comments. This was made in 1986. And they said we would have done it. So it’s handed over to the Americans. Five times the Americans turn it down. And not only that, Sir John McCloy actually said shelve it. So it comes to nothing. And now we come to and look. So actually before I get onto the affair of Lord Moyne, on the 3rd of July, 1944, the Jewish agency is saying, enough, we are fighting with the British.

In fact, David Raziel, the former head of the Irgun, had died fighting for the British in Iraq. So the Jewish agents, he said, would want its own fighting force to fight with the Allies in Italy. And the Secretary of State for War, Sir James Greig, he actually objected. But Churchill said, “I cannot see why this martyred race scattered throughout the world and suffering as no other race has done at this juncture should be denied the satisfaction of having a fight.” So he overrides Greig, and it takes seven meetings with Weizmann and Shertok. It’s based on Palestinian units already in existence.

Recruitment was open to Jewish refugees in Britain, Italy, Mauritius. A number of Jews in the British Army transferred. It’s established on the 20th of September, 1944. This is a statement from the Jewish Agency. “The entry of a Jewish fighting force into the battle against the enemy of the Jewish people and mankind’s freedom will symbolise the status of Israel in the fight for a better world.” And their emblem was to be the star of David, white and blue flash of the brigade. And evidently a squadron of South African pilots, as they went into battle, they flew in star of David formation to really give a boost to the Jewish Brigade. This is the Times.

This is the “London Times”. “The star of David blue White flash of the brigade will mean much the men who wear these emblems in a great tradition, but they will mean even more to the survivors of massacres and deportations who have endured crueller dispersion than Nebuchadnezzar devised and more ruthless even than Torquemada planned. "The Manchester Guardian”, which in those days was a huge supporter of Zionism, supported the demand for a Jewish fighting force. And they attacked, quote unquote “the stupidity which has led to the mishandling of the Palestine issue. The Jewish brigade may still prove to the world that Jews need not always be persecuted, but can be soldiers of a great nation.”

Now Churchill has allowed it to happen, and it was very much against the support of many members of the Foreign Office. But going back, going back to the issue of Hungary, we now come to one of the darkest chapters in Jewish-British relations. And what happened was as you know, Eichmann goes into Budapest and he consults with two young Zionists, Brand and Kasztner. And he offers the extraordinary goods, the blood for goods deal.

This is now in April, 1944. If the Allies will give concessions to the Nazis, wartime concessions, he’s prepared to sell a thousand, he’s prepared to sell the remaining Jews of Hungary. Now you all know that Kasztner received a pledge and we’ve discussed Kasztner. And I’m sure we will discuss it, those of you who weren’t online, I’m sure we will discuss it again. But the point is Joel Brand goes off to relay the issue to the Allies. He is imprisoned in Alexandria. And what happens is this, that he hears an officer say, “What would we do with a million Jews in Palestine? We don’t want them.” And he was led to believe it was Lord Moyne, who by this time is in charge of the Middle East.

So what happens is he’s released, he goes off to Palestine, and it’s at this stage that the Irgun decide to assassinate Lord Moyne. Now who was Lord Moyne? And let’s discuss it because he is a very close friend of Winston Churchill. His biography, March, 1880 to the 6th of November, 1944. He was the third son of the Earl of Iveagh. The family name was Guinness. He was the heir to the great brewing tradition. He had the usual route for the English upper classes. In Eton he was incredibly popular. In my very peculiar career, I taught in the Sixth Form of Eton. And he was chairman of the Pop Society.

They were the kids who were at Sixth Form who were allowed to wear their own brocade waistcoats. They were the special ones. He was chairman of the Pop Society. He was Captain of Boats. He was incredibly popular. He married the daughter of the 14th Earl of Buchan. He’s very much part of the aristocracy, had three children. His son Bryan, Bryan Guinness was the first husband of Diana Mitford. We’ve already mentioned the Mitfords and we will be having a session on them one evening. And of course Diana Mitford later divorced him and married Oswald Mosley. He had a very good military career. He was commissioned in the Second Boer War. He had very much a devil-may-care attitude. He used to make lightning raids on Afrikaner positions.

I said to you a couple of weeks ago, a British officer said, actually described the British as either shopkeepers or adventurers. He was an adventurer. He was decorated in World War I. He served with great distinction in Egypt and Gallipoli and Passendale. He won the distinguished service medal. He went into politics in 1907, Conservative for Bury St Edmunds, a post he held until 1931. And though he and Churchill had been political opponents, they were very close and they worked together. And he was Minister for Agriculture.

In 1932, he was created Baron Moyne. He was a very important businessman. He was the Director of Guinness. He established the British Pacific properties in Vancouver. He commissioned the Lion Great Bridge, which many of you, those in Canada I’m sure will know, opened by George the sixth. Look, when his son married Diana Mitford, it was the society wedding of the year with the royal family there. They are absolutely at the centre of the English aristocracy. He was a trustee of the Guinness and Iveagh Trusts. And his father had given the great art collection at Kenwood to the nation. And of course that includes Vermeer and Rembrandt.

Those of you in London, I’m sure most of you have visited it. Those of you who come to London from overseas, it’s an incredible place to visit. So he’s well-rounded, he’s cultural. He’s also a keen yachtsman, many social cruises, he and his wife accompanied by the Churchills. They’re very close. As an adventurer, he actually brings the first living Komodo dragon back to Britain on one of his tours. He and Churchill were both members of what they called The Other Club, which Churchill had founded in 1911. And Moyne was present when that terrible speech, with Churchill, when Chamberlain comes back from Munich, that terrible speech peace with honour.

Now his political career, in '32, he was in Kenya overseeing finances. In 1933 he was chairman, chairman of the parliamentary committee dealing with slum clearance. He was chair of Durham University, Vice Chancellor. He was involved with the British film industry. He was chairman of the West Indies Royal Commission. He was a great public servant across the board. And actually when World War II broke out, he very much pushed Churchill for the internment, just not of Mosley, but also of his daughter-in-law. September '39, he chaired the Polish Relief Fund and gave his London House, 11 Grosvenor Place, over to Polish officers.

He held many posts under Churchill. He was the Secretary of State for the colonies, and between August '42 and January '44, Deputy Resident Minister of State in Cairo. And January '44 until his death, he is the Senior Minister of the Middle East. He’s Resident Minister for the Middle East based in Cairo with control over Persia, the Middle East and Africa. Now he had in the past proposed specifically Jewish army units in Palestine to avoid Arab sensibilities. However, he’d been in London in November, 1943 at a Cabinet committee, which recommended, and he decided to support the idea of partition.

There was a meeting in November '43 where because of what was happening in Europe, this was strongly backed by Churchill and by Lord Moyne, ironically, Anthony Eden was against it, to go back to the 1937 partition map, which would’ve given the Jews a state in Palestine about the size of, those of you who know England, Cornwall. But it would’ve given something and he’s changing his mind. And, but remember the Lehi think he made that statement, what should we do with a million Jews? And in fact, a lot of work has been done on this by a man called Shlomo Aronson. And we now know that in fact it was a comment made by the head of the refugee section at the Foreign Office, a man called Alec Randall.

And he, just to give you an idea of his kind of politics, this is back in August, 1942, “The extreme Zionist campaign for recognition of a distinct Jewish nationality is part of the propaganda for a Jewish sovereign state in Palestine, a point of extreme delicacy for Britain.” And quote unquote, this is Louise London, who’s written a very good book on this, “was unable or unwilling to acknowledge that the destruction of the Jewish presence in Europe made it necessary to abandon outdated policies.”

He was, as I said, head of the refugee department until '45, and he finishes up as ambassador to Denmark. It’s absolutely fascinating because even at the end of the war, this man said when the war is over, we should use our influence to see that Jewish nationals of various countries who have sought and been given a haven of refuge by various national governments could be repatriated to their native lands. And he went on to say that General Sikorski, of course, the head of the Polish government in London, had already declared that after the war all Polish Jews would be welcomed back to Poland.

He made that statement in '43. But that was his policy at the end of the war, the repatriation of Jews, including German and Austrian Jews living in England. But there was a misunderstanding. Now, so he goes onto Palestine, joins Lehi, and later he said, “I made a terrible mistake in passing all this on,” talking about the bloods for goods deal. “It’s now clear that Himmler sought to sow suspicion amongst the allies.” Now the point is, and we haven’t got time to go into it now, the Lehi sent in two men, Eliyahu Bet-Zuri and Eliahu Hakim, two young Sephardi Jews, into Cairo.

And they assassinated Lord Moyne and also his bodyguard, and his driver. Major Onslow was a principal witness at the trial. And he becomes a marked man because of his evidence. And he has to be sent to Aden and then Khartoum for his own safety. And this is what he said. “No doubt Lord Moyne could be regarded as a target for political assassination, but the shooting of the chauffer was pure murder.” Moyne’s body, by the way, was flown back to London. And he’s actually in the columbarium in Golders Green along with such luminaries as Freud. So the world is very, very strange.

Now, according to the Lehi leader, Nathan Yellin-Mor and Stern had considered the possibility of assassinating the British minister to the Middle East as early as '41. And he held Moyne responsible for Palestine, for the Palestine problem and blamed Moyne for the Struma. Now, after the murder, Lehi made the statement, “We accuse Lord Moyne and the government he represents with murdering hundreds of thousands of our brethren. We accuse him of seizing our country and looting our possessions. We were forced to seek justice and fight.” The two assassins were in fact executed. And the Yishuv actually very much distanced itself from it.

Ben-Gurion, “To England, terrorism, like the murder of Lord Moyne, is like a fly stinging a lion. But to Jewry, it is a dagger stinging through its heart.” So basically the situation, by assassinating Lord Moyne, it turns opinion, Churchill’s opinion against the Jews. And this is what Churchill has to say. He says this. “If our dreams for Zionism come to the end in the smoke of assassins’ guns, and our labours for its future produced only a new set of gangsters worthy of Nazi Germany, many like myself will have to reconsider the position we have maintained so consistently and for so long in the past.”

And it has to be said when the war is over 1945, Churchill is still in power. And he doesn’t do anything. He says there has to be a conference. And Martin Gilbert very much takes the line that Churchill never really deserted the Jews. Frankly, there were members of the House of Lords and members of Parliament and the British administration in Palestine, they wanted to punish the Jews. They wanted to stop all immigration and they wanted to make somebody, like they wanted to make an anti-Semite like Lord, what’s his name, the guy who was at Evian. I’ll think of him in a minute.

They wanted to make him High Commissioner. Churchill wouldn’t have any of that, but he certainly did mourn his friend. And it also has to be said that in 1946 when the British talk about repatriation, evidently, remember 11 million refugees on the move in Europe. And at the end of the war, Jews in Belgium and Holland were being attacked. And Churchill speaks out violently against this in the House of Commons. And also he continually speaks out on any oppression of the Jews. And after the establishment of Israel, he spoke out against the British officers in the Arab Legion.

He said this, “I never conceived it possible that in giving up the mandate, we would not show the strictest impartiality. Instead, it appears that the Arab Legion led by 40 British officers, armed with British equipment and financed by British subsidy, has fired on the Jewish quarter in Jerusalem.” And he was angry that Britain was late in recognising the estate of Israel. He called it the sulky boycott, which made Bevin squirm. This is when, of course, the Labour Party is in power. And I’ll be talking a lot about this after the High Holy days. And this is what he said.

“Whether the right honourable gentleman likes it or not, the coming into being of a Jewish state in Palestine is an event in world history to be viewed in the perspective of 1,000, 2,000 or even 3,000 years. Nine days after his speech, Britain did recognise Israel. And in the sixth and final volume of his memoirs of the war, he published, this is published in 1953, he says this. "The Greeks rival the Jews in being the most politically minded race in the world. No matter how forlorn their circumstances, how great the peril of their country, they are always divided into many parties with many leaders who fight amongst themselves with desperate vigour.

It has been said that whenever there are three Jews, it will be found there are two prime ministers and one leader of the opposition. No two races have set such a mark upon the world. Both have shown a capacity for survival in spite of unending perils and suffering from external oppressors, matched only by their ceaseless feuds, quarrels, and convolutions. The passage of several thousand years sees no change in their characteristics and no diminution of their trials or vitality. They have survived in spite of all the world could do against them and all they do against themselves, and each of them from angles so different has left us the inheritance of their genius and wisdom. I believe in their invincible power to survive internal strife and the world tides that threatens their existence.”

This he wrote in ‘53. He got us, didn’t he? He really did get the Jews. And when he died finally, he never visited Israel actually though he spent a lot of time in the Mediterranean, quite often on Onassis’ yacht, when he died, this is the eulogy that Ben-Gurion gave in the Knesset. “In his undaunted resistance and struggle against the Nazi kingdom of hell, Churchill was the perfect combination of a great man at a great hour. He joined battle and he prevailed. The longed for decision was not the result of one man’s war or the victory of a single nation. It was not through him alone that the sons of light prevailed against the sons of darkness.

Nevertheless, this one man was a symbol and a catalyst, a focal point of hope and a kingpin in the force of the struggle of giants. As far back as the beginning of the century, Sir Winston Churchill supported the cause of Zionism. 13 years later he spoke on Mount Scopus as a free and sovereign Palestine, one that will be unconquerable. Churchill belonged to the entire world. His memory will light the way for generations to come in every corner of the globe.” And that was from the Prime Minister of Israel.

So I’ve tried to give as balanced an account as possible. When the Lehi murdered Lord Moyne, they murdered somebody who was very close to Churchill. Yes, he had spoken out against Jewish immigration into Palestine. He definitely wasn’t the man who made that terrible anti-Semitic remark. And passions were rised to boiling point. And I think one of the tragedies was, could the Jews have been saved? There are so many books written on whether it would’ve made any difference anyway. But the point is, in the end, I personally believe that Churchill is one of the great men of history, and it also illustrates just how desperate the Jews were. And I think these kind of wounds, can you imagine what it must have been like?

And I know there are people, there are probably people on the platform who remember those days, but what it was like to be a Jew in London between 1945 and ‘48. Over 2,000 British soldiers went out to Palestine, British Jewish soldiers. Some joined the Haganah, some joined the Irgun, some joined the Lehi. The majority joined the Haganah, but it was divided loyalty. And of course it brings up the whole issue of what it means to be a Jew in these terribly dark times.

I hope I’ve whetted your appetite to this subject. There are so many books that could be recommended. And as I said to you, once the website is up, you will be given a comprehensive bibliography. I would suggest Churchill, “Churchill and the Jews” by Sir Martin Gilbert. I think on balance, it is the best one. There is Professor Cohen’s book, which is much more critical, but I think that’s more or less been debunked now, if I may say that. So shall we see what you have to say about it? I’m expecting a lot of polarisation. Should we see?

Q&A and Comments

Q: Ettie, where can we get the recordings? A: Once the website is up, you can just apply from them.

And this is from people telling us where they are. There’s Ray. There’s Ray in Montreal, Rona in Toronto. Rona Arato is recommending a good book on the Hungarian tragedy, “How it Happened” by Erno Munkasci. I hope I pronounce that properly. Yes, we spent a lot of time on Hungary in the past. And yes, you will be able to get all the lectures.

“Hi Rona, I’m Daisy from Denver. My parents and family were Hungarian, so thank you for recommending the book. My daughter and family live in Toronto.” This is from. Yes?

• Trudy. Sorry, Trudy, just to say, eventually you’ll be able to get all the lectures. We’re working on the website.

• Yes. Yes, Wendy, thank you.

• Just to let everybody know, we’re still working on the website, just not yet. So please be patient. Thanks.

• Yes. Once the website is up, that’s correct, isn’t it Wendy?

Yes, somebody’s pointed out that it’s the anniversary of the Stauffenberg bomb to kill Hitler. Yeah, of course. Now Francine, this is from Montreal.

Q: “Do you think Lord Moyne’s assassination led to Churchill’s change of mind re the Jews in Israel? A: Well, he does say in parliament you’ve lost a good friend. But on the other hand, he does make that statement in '40. He does nothing while he is still Prime Minister. His son does write to Weizmann, "My father is ill and old.” He’s only prime minister for three. Don’t forget, in July the Labour Party take over and they take a completely different tack on Palestine. He does support the establishment of the state of Israel. He tells the British Legion off, the British trained Arab Legion. So, no, I don’t think he becomes an anti-Zionist. I think he was angry with the Lehi for murdering one of his closest friends.

Q: “Didn’t the English put limits on Jewish immigration right from the beginning of the mandate?” A: If you remember, yesterday, I told you Churchill in 1922, economic absorbative capacity. But by 1939, starting with about 65,000 in 1914, the numbers had gone up to nearly half a million. So Jews were coming in, yeah. And ironically it was in the interest of the Nazis to let it happen.

Penny, “Surely can just say that the British behaviour was appalling and shameful and they should own up to their own culpability.” Penny, if you are talking about the saving of the Jews of Europe, nobody did enough except 35,000 people honoured by the Yad Vashem. This is one of the deep sores in Jewish history, and the ramifications are with us today. Could they have saved the Jews of Europe? The world could have saved the Jews if the Evian Conference, they could have saved German and Austrian Jewry in its entirety. There’s no question of that. The Evian Conference of 1938, I told you yesterday, Goebbels actually writes in his diary, “We savages are better than the so-called civilised world.” Hitler wanted a judenrein Reich, and up until the middle of '41, it meant just that. In fact, Jews got out of Germany as late as October of '41. He decides on murder, he begins to murder. Look, they were ill-treated. Many did die. They died of starvation. They were shot. But the actual wholesale decision on genocide is the invasion of Russia.

Q: “Britain got most of its oil from the US during the war. What did it get from appeasing the Arabs?” A: Well, it dreamt of an empire, remember. It was still the days of the Empire, Barry. Look, I could cogently argue that the British empire, that America really became top nation in 1918. But when did the British realise that? It’s not just about oil. It’s about British influence in the Middle East, British influence in Persia and the jewel in the Crown, the India.

Oh dear, Stanley, what an incredible question.

Q: "Not sure of the relevance of my question, but I’d like to know when comparing Begin with Ben-Gurion, who is the more responsible for the creation of Israel? Can you recommend a book that goes into depth?” A: There are a hundred books, Stanley, that go into this, and it depends entirely on what side of the political fence you are on. This still divides Israel. Look, up until Begin became Prime Minister, you had Ben-Gurion and the Jews of the left. Then you had Begin, and following on from Begin. And don’t forget Netanyahu, who up until a few months ago was Prime Minister, his father was Jabotinsky’s secretary. So this division is still there and there’s a lot to be said about it. Wendy and I haven’t quite decided how we’re going to be dealing with '48 onwards because we move really from history into politics. And I’m trying to hold the line on Churchill and there are so many different accounts. You see, that’s the problem with history. Who’s doing the telling and what sources are you using? Look, Begin’s people think that the Irgun bombed the British out of Palestine. Ben-Gurion and the left very much thought it was building up the infrastructure of the state, bringing in the illegals, negotiating at the UN. So it depends what side of the political fence. I believe in the end it was a bit of both.

This is from Carol, “The aliens in Britain, after fleeing the Nazis were interned and shipped to Australia and kept in camps. Afterwards, they were recruited to fight together with the British, perfect because they spoke perfect German.” Yeah. Yes, of course there were ships to Australia. It was an extraordinary story. And you see again, what does it mean to be a Jewish, what does it mean to be a Jewish national? You can make the case that Zionism as a majority movement is born in this time. Look, before Hitler, the majority of Jews in the West were quite convinced that they were citizens of the countries in which they live, of the Jewish religion. And to many of the religious Jews of the east, they were still waiting for the mashiach.

“My cousins were on the ship that was sent to Mauritania. My cousins are buried there. The children ended up in South America.” So Mauritius you’re talking about, yes. Yes, Henry, it’s such a terrible story.

“The documentary ‘Atlantic Drift’ indicates that the Patria was a ship to which those with typhus were taken for isolation.“ Yes. I believe that was when it was a French ship. Yes. I think you’re right.

Thank you, Judith.

“Invasion of Russia was the 22nd of November.” Yes, of course, you were right. You know I can’t make one tiny mistake with this audience. It’s wonderful.

This is from Harriet, "President emeritus of Toronto Jewish Genealogy Society, Henry Wellisch, currently to turn 99, did a 2 ½ hour presentation to the society last week on Vienna, Prague and Budapest, was part of the group sent to Mauritius and interviewed in the film. Perhaps he would be a good candidate.” Very much so, Harriet. Get in touch with me through Judy. Then Wendy and I can discuss it. Appeasement.

• [Wendy] Or maybe she could just send information, Trudy.

• Yes, send the information please.

• Yes, send the information to us or the link.

• Yes that’s a very good idea.

• And then we can follow up from there. So who sent that to you, Trudy? Trudy, who sent that to you, please?

• This is from Harriet Deekhoff. So could you send that please all the information about that? Because it does sound interesting, doesn’t it, Wendy?

• Thank you. Thank you very much for that.

• “Do you think Churchill thought he could have done more?” Good question. “Would like to know his personal thoughts, writings.” Well, Martin has done quite a bit on this. Look, it’s such a difficult question to answer. Who’s doing the answering?

Henry Miller’s pointing out “The Black Book of Poland”, published by the Polish government-in-exile, documents the atrocities. Yes. You see, there’s so much evidence.

Q: “Were there groups of Jews who successfully made it?” A: Yeah. Yes. One of the reasons the British cut back on immigration in 1940 was because thousands of illegals had made it there, and Churchill did say you don’t need a certificate if you’ve made it already.

“Black Book” was published in '42.

Q: “What was the name of the Slovakian Jew who escaped and gave the report?” A: There were two of them, Anton Wetzler and Rudi Vrba. Rudi Vrba, answered by Maxine. Thank you. I love this group. Yes. Three people have answered.

• How do you spell the name? Trudy, how do you spell Vrba?

• V-R-B-A, Rudolf Vrba, V-R-B-A, extraordinary man.

This is from Carla. “Bulgaria was the only country where Jews were protected, not only harmed, but saved in their entirety, ordinary Bulgarians, the Orthodox church et cetera.” Now, this is very interesting, and Bulgaria is a country that we have neglected. And perhaps Wendy, this is something else we need to discuss.

"What a great story about the South African pilots. There are a good number of Jewish pilots and crews in the SAA.” Yes. Cecil Margo went on to lead the Israeli Air Force after the war. Yes. Alan, I guess you are from South Africa. Yeah. There’s some incredible stories of bravery.

• [Wendy] I actually know Cecil’s children, so maybe we can get them to chat with us about it.

• Oh right, actually, when we talk about South Africa, Cecil Margo, a story about him would be amazing, wouldn’t it?

And then Moyne, Jonathan Moyne, of course was Clementine Churchill’s cousin. You know, when Churchill was, they spent an awful lot of time together. Remember Churchill loved boats. So did Moyne.

And this is from Denise. "Jews have always expected to roll over, but the rest of the world could do what it bloody well liked. Jews didn’t count like other people. I’m so proud today in Israel, Jews refuse to roll over.” Denise, this is of course the great Bar Kokhba Ben-Safi debate. What is the future of the Jewish people? Oh goodness.

Q: Who was finally responsible for not accepting Eichmann’s offer to save 1 million Hungarian Jews? A: The problem is, Edward, it probably wasn’t a real offer and we don’t have all the documents. I have lectured on this at length and there are books on it. May I suggest, as Wendy has pointed out, when the website is up, you can listen. I think I’ve given about six lectures on the Kasztner affair, so when the website’s up. But there are many, many books on it as well.

Q: And “Where can we get a copy of Churchill’s letter about the Jews in 1953?” A: Bev, you can get it. It’s certainly in Martin Gilbert’s book, “Churchill and the Jews”. And I bet you it’s online.

This is from David Glassman. “Rudi Vrba wrote and co-wrote. His first wife, Professor Vrbova died in Muswell Hill.” Yes. Yes. He wrote the report. His wife, I believe, wrote a book about him and so did he.

This is David Lussman again. “Albania had more Jews at the end of war than at the start. And they were protected under the culture of Besa, looking after the honoured guest.” Yes, that is also true. Albania, I think has received a medal for its saving of Jews.

Q: Do I mean Bletchley Park? A: This is Peter. I actually mean Bletchley, but it was also at Trent Park as well, Peter.

• [Wendy] Trudy. Trudy.

• Yes.

• [Wendy] I have a question from by Brian Gitten. He’s just sent it to me on an email and he wants to know your opinion on Andrew Roberts’s biography on Churchill.

• I think it’s a very, very good general book on Churchill. There’s not as much depth on the Jews because he’s not an expert on Jewish history, but it’s a very, very good book, certainly worth a good read. You see, Churchill, that’s why Williams has been telling the story of Churchill. I mean, Churchill is one of those men who walked the world. I get so cross when they defaced his statue, but then we better not get onto that one. I think Barbara’s saying, Ken Burns, the great filmmaker is making a film, “The Holocaust and the USA”, what the USA did and what they didn’t do and what they should have done.

And Elie Strauss says, “Ken Burns isn’t so great. He’s very biassed.” You see, this is the problem . Look, in the end, I think the lesson that the Jews of Palestine learnt, I’m speaking now, trying to speak objectively as a historian, they learnt in the end they had to defend themselves. You know, tiny little Israel under the left wing Ben-Gurion procured nuclear weapons.

Margie Abelis, this is a nice point. “I remember as a small boy in Golders Green hiding the JC, which I collected from Brent Station because of old anti-Semitism.” Oh, you won’t tell them, Leo Abelis. Your brilliant hasn’t dimmed. Oh Leo, lovely to hear from you.

And there’s a question from Carla, no, just saying how much she’s enjoyed. Thank you so much. Thank you.

This is from Riva. “I agree with your analysis of Churchill 100%. One can never take the person or their actions out of context.”

And this is from Denise. “As you say, Trudy, always boils down to economics, i.e. money.” Look, this has been a very difficult presentation to give. And it’s not just what I put in, but what I didn’t have time to tell. It’s when you are dealing like a character like Churchill, we’ve all got warts. And obviously for a Jew, particularly a Jew who lost family in the Shoah, nobody did enough. You know, and can I bring it to the present? I hope you will bear with me on this. I’m not making any statements about politics, except that we still have terrible problems with refugees, don’t we? You know? So one of the things I find rather depressing is how much has human nature changed? Although I will say that Lockdown University has given me a lot of hope. There’s so many wonderful people on it, and also the kindness one receives just out and about. So wouldn’t it be wonderful if ordinary folk could come more to the fore after this terrible crisis?

Well, this is from Harriet, Wendy. She’s answering our question. Henry Wellisch’s lecture on Vienna, Prague and Budapest will be on Jewish Genealogy of Toronto website in a few days, free to members indefinitely, and for non-members for 10 days. So perhaps if you send us all those details.

This is from Ellie. “Unfortunately appeasement is now a popular policy.”

From Peter Tomann, “The request to bomb Auschwitz was passed by the British Ministry to the US because the US had bombers operating.” Yes, I mentioned it was rejected by John McCloy. And Martin hints that the British were keen to pass on the request for the Americans to bury it. John McCloy does cross the line. I do believe that. Yes.

Adrian, the Nazi final solution was made in Wannsee. It’s retroactive. It’s written down at Wannsee but it actually had begun with the invasion of Russia. That is generally accepted history. All the great historians of the Shoah accept that, Adrian.

Q: “Have you or do you plan to lecture on Albanian Jews?” A: At some stage, there will be. If Wendy and I can work it out, there will be a lecture on those, on Albanian Jews.

• [Wendy] Trudy.

• I think we should stop there because we have another lecture coming up. And can I just.

• We do.

• Can I just point out that as a group, we made a decision to halt lecturing on the Shoah for a while because as somebody pointed out, we could spend a year on it and we just felt that there are so many facets of Jewish history. That doesn’t mean that we won’t go back to resistance and bravery. I don’t know if you want to say anything on that, Wendy.

• No, I think it’s a good idea. I think we should address Albania and the Bulgarian situation. But right now I just want to say thank you, Trudy. We’ve got another lecture in 45 minutes. We’ve got Jeremy Rosen speaking about the chosen people.

• That’s important. That’s very good.

• Yeah, I think that actually in 40 minutes and then tomorrow we have the 9Yards Capital. That’s actually my son and son-in-law are hosting an intimate fireside chat with renowned historian Niall Ferguson and George Osborne to discuss what the 2020s hold in store. So that’s tomorrow. So I just wanted to remind everybody, and Trudy, another fabulous presentation.

• And Wendy, I just love the way the programme is developing with all these strands, as we say.

• Absolutely. And stay safe, everybody. Honestly, this new strain is very scary.

• [Trudy] I know, I know.

• People who are vaccinated.

• And you in America, you’re told not to come to Britain. We’re not safe anymore . What a world. Take care.

• Well, my son-in-law has COVID. And I mean, they couldn’t be more cautious. So it’s, you know. Everybody look after yourselves. Wear your masks. Everybody should wear masks. Yeah.

• Is he okay?

• He’s not well, so he’s not well. So anyway, on that note, stay safe, everyone, and see you in 40 minutes.

• God bless.

• Take care.

• Take care, everyone.

• Thanks. Good. Bye bye.