Trudy Gold
The Champagne Spy: The Life of Wolfgang Lotz
Trudy Gold | The Champagne Spy: The Life of Wolfgang Lotz | 06.23.21
- Hi, are you there?
Hi. Yes, Wendy, I’m here.
Oh, sorry. Hello. Do you like my new office?
Your new your office, did you say? Yeah, I think I love it. When most people have a backdrop like that, it is fake.
Yeah, we’ve erected the structures because I’m going to start, I’m building a sculpting studio.
Oh, fantastic. Oh, wonderful.
So that’s what I’m doing right now. I’m sitting in my new office and my new studio.
I love it!
Have we opened? Have we opened? Oh, yes, we have. Okay.
We’re open. You tell me when I’m to start.
Apparently Judy had some complaints about the chitchat beforehand.
All right, let’s have some interesting chitchat then. I’ve been talking to the guys in a real meeting and I’ve told them all to come up with nice, interesting light ideas for August as you wanted. So we could have a meeting on that. That’d be fun.
Perfect. So Trudy, as soon as you’re ready, I’m going to hand it over to you.
She loves the chitchat.
No. Yeah, there was a lot of complaints. I’m always entertained by the complaints that we get. They forget that we started off only two of us, then four of us, then 10 of us, then 20 of us. This is how we started. Family style.
And with you in LA and me and Cornwall, when can we chat?
The time change is unbelievable.
The weather’s beautiful down here today. My mad daughter and grandson actually went swimming in the sea. In England. Can you imagine?
Oh, fabulous. That’s marvellous. Good. So I’m going to hand it over to you and, yeah, we are looking forward to today’s presentation. Thanks a million.
I can just tell you, Wendy, at least five people have said they like our chitchat.
We get emails like, “Get on with it. We don’t want to listen to this.” So irritating. You know what, I’ve always found huge complaints. I dunno why, I always receive them with a touch of amusement. Except when I’m, you know, except when I’m at the Guggenheim. Not so much amusement.
That’s not amusement. All right, my darling, I’ll speak to you tomorrow.
Okay. All right, thanks.
And off I go.
[Wendy] Speaking, we can speak after this. Thanks. Thanks everybody.
God bless.
Thank you. Over to you.
Visuals displayed throughout the presentation.
- Okay, well good evening from London. And I’m hearing, I’m seeing some wonderful messages from people who are in Santa Barbara. All over the world. It’s absolutely fabulous. Shauna, can we please have the first slide.
The Champagne Spy, the Life of Wolfgang Lotz. Let me explain. I’ve been teaching very much the dark side of the world, but I’ve always also been interested in unusual characters, unusual personalities. Can we see the face of the man I’m going to be talking about, please. Yes. And I’m going to be talking about Wolfgang Lotz. His dates are 1921 to 1993. But let me go on a little about this kind of personality because I’ve also done quite a lot of work on rescuers. Rescuers in the Shoah, but also rescuers in other horror stories.
And it does seem that there are a lot of personalities where people actually thrive on risk. They thrive on the excitement that risk brings. And frankly, they do far better in acute situations, trouble situations, than they do in peacetime. They are real adventurers. And if ever there was an adventurer, it’s Wolfgang Lotz. One of the problems with Wolfgang Lotz though is he did write his autobiography, “The Champagne Spy,” and what is real and what isn’t, I’ve tried to wend through for you, but it’s an incredible story. And can we have the next slide, please, Shauna? Yes.
Now that is Manheim. Wolfgang Lotz, and I hope most of you have heard of him. He was born in Manheim in 1921. He had a Jewish mother and a German father. His mother was an actress. His father was a theatre director. He was brought up in a completely irreligious background. His mother was so irreligious that, even though she had produced a Jewish child, he was not circumcised. And later on, that’s going to play an important part in his story. The marriage didn’t last. And in 1931, when he was 10 years old, his parents were divorced. And then, of course, Hitler came to power in Germany. And his mother, who was quite a character in her own right, she took him to Palestine in 1933. They settled in Tel Aviv where she resumed her acting career. The Habima Theatre Company had been created in 1925. And ironically, the incredible amount of talent from Germany is really going to make it into a world-class theatre company.
So she resumes her acting career and Wolf takes the name Ze'ev, which of course is Hebrew for wolf. So Wolfgang Lotz becomes Ze'ev Gur-Arie. He studied at an agricultural college in Ben Shemen. He became an excellent equestrian. He was crazy about horses. He loved the outdoor life. He was blonde, he was blue-eyed. He looked the perfect Aryan specimen, which later on is going to play into the story. In 1936 when he’s 15 years old, he joins the Haganah. Just think what’s going on in Palestine. The Arab riots of 1936. The Haganah which had been formed back in 1920. Can we see some shots of the Haganah, please? Oh no, actually this is jumping on. I thought it’d be interesting for you to see shots of Tel Aviv in 19… These are shots of Tel Aviv actually in 1933 when his family came to Tel Aviv. And just see what you can, you see the scenes at the beach and you can already see, can you not, the style of architecture?
And later on, of course, German Jewry, the Bauhaus is going to completely change the face of Tel Aviv. Now, so he joins the Haganah in 1936, and he was very much part of the horseback patrol guarding the outlying kibbutzim. Remember, he is a crazy horseman. Now, World War II breaks out and he is, he then decides that he wants to do something. He is recruited by the British Army. Now, even though it was a very complicated situation, which I’ve already began to address in my day lectures, but I’m going to just go over it a little bit here. When war broke out in 1939, the Yishuv were in a terrible quandary because, back in May, 1939, the British had issued the White Paper on Palestine.
Just as the net was completely closing on the Jews of Europe, the British restrict the number of Jewish immigrants into Palestine to 15,000 a year for five years. And whoever has the majority will have the state. And what it meant was another Arab-dominated state in the Middle East. And the famous quote of Ben-Gurion, “ We will fight the British as though there’s no White Paper. We fight Hitler as if there’s no White Paper.” They were absolutely stuck. And it’s at this stage that the Irgun start fighting the British in May, 1939. When war breaks out, the Haganah and the Irgun decide to fight with the British. A small breakaway group led by Abraham Stern, they say the British were as bad as the Nazis and they continue to fight against the British.
But anyway, Wolfgang Lotz joins the Haganah. And the Haganah, it’s fascinating because about 20,000 Palestinian-Jewish soldiers volunteered to join the British Army. The Palmach had already been created. The British wouldn’t let them in. They said, we can only let you in if Arabs join the army. And the one thing that the Arabs didn’t do was join the British Army. However, what was obvious as the war progressed, and particularly when Rommel is at the gates of Egypt, the British realise that they can find useful people in Palestine. Ironically, they don’t allow a proper Jewish brigade until 1944. But what they do do is take in people like Lotz. Lotz, remember he’s blonde, he’s blue-eyed, he speaks perfect German, and he’s uncircumcised.
Lotz, his first job is to interrogate captured soldiers after El-Alamein. And this is going to be also incredibly useful to him because later on, when he is a spy for Mossad, he’s going to have to pose as a German. And this really helps him because he interrogates all these officers, German officers, and he gathers an awful lot of information about the way they’re living. Remember, he left Germany in 1931 when he was only 10 years old. So it gave him the opportunity to gather a lot of information. He’s very much a derring-do kind of character. And as I said before, he loves danger. He’s stationed in Egypt, which also is very interesting in terms of what’s going to happen later.
After the war, he returns to Palestine and he works for the Haganah. Can we see some pictures of the Haganah, please? You see, at the end of the war, the Allies, it was fascinating because one of the reasons the British had supported the Arabs in 1939, May, 1939, is that they were terrified that they would go over to the Axis. The irony was that they did. So it was such a shock to the Jews when the British do not alter the White Paper even after the war, even after the horror of the camps are revealed. And this is when the Haganah is really preparing, because between 1945 and 1948, we’re going to see, and I’ll be discussing this in day lectures, civil war actually breaks out in Palestine. And this blonde, blue-eyed German-speaking soldier joins the IDF.
And what he does in join… Beg your pardon, joins the Haganah. And he’s most useful as an arms smuggler. Remember, he’s got languages and perfect German. Europe was awash with arms. And he bought, stole, procured arms for the Haganah because they knew eventually they would have to go to war. In 1948, he married a young Jewish girl called Rivka, had a son, Oded. And after the state is proclaimed, he joins the IDF and becomes a captain. And he is involved in the Battle of Latrun. Let’s see some footage of that, if you don’t mind. Yes.
This is more footage of the Haganah. Those bronzed young soldiers. And here you see scenes from the Battle of Latrun. It’s at this stage he becomes quite a close friend of Ariel Sharon, and that’s going to be very important later on. He reaches the rank of major. He commands an infantry division, and he continues in the army until Suez. And after the Suez Crisis, he’s recruited by the Israeli Intelligence Service. Now what has happened to make this important? One of the most in… Can we go on with the pictures, please? Ah, and that is what has happened. Here you see two pictures of the young Gamal Abdel Nasser. We’re going to have a whole lecture on him later on in the course.
But what is interesting about Nasser, he had been a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. He was a hugely patriotic Egyptian, and he dreams of a unified Arab world. When Israel was created, who controlled Egypt but Farouk. Farouk is deposed in 1951, Colonel Naguib. And now Nasser is in control of Egypt. And Nasser has a dream to become the new Saladin. And between 1958 and 1961 with Syria, he creates the United Arab Republic. He is violently opposed to what he calls the Zionist entity. And he’s going to do everything possible to try and quash the state of Israel.
Now, who did he have to help him? One of the advisors in Egypt is someone that those of you who’ve been on the course for quite a long time will have heard much of. And that is, of course, Haj Amin al-Husseini. I’ve already talked about the ratline, how the, through the Vatican, a man called Alois Hudal smuggled a lot of Nazis out of Europe, many to South America, but some to the Middle East. Some went to Syria and some went to Egypt. Haj Amin al-Husseini actually recruited propaganda characters who would then work for Nasser.
And ironically, one of Goebbels’ most brilliant propagandists was working for Nasser, very much because he was recruited by Haj Amin al-Husseini. He converts to Islam. So there is a whole cadre of Germans in Egypt. There are the propagandists, there are ex-Nazis who have found a welcome home. Because, remember, Nasser is violently anti-Israel. And something else. Nasser wants to make Egypt into the great military power. And one of the ways he can do that. And by 1956, ‘57, he’s playing the West, America and Russia against each other.
One of the ways he can do that is, of course, to have a very, very important scientific base. And where’s he going to get that but from Germany? Now, this is very, very interesting because at Stuttgart there was a rocket programme. A lot of the Nazi scientists had been recruited by the Allies, but not all of them. And there were quite a few Nazi scientists who were thinking that they are being, they’re not being well used in West Germany. So where can they go? Through a Swiss-Egyptian who goes to Stuttgart, we begin to see projects to recruit scientists to come to Egypt, to work on missile sites for the Egyptians to create rockets.
The project was actually initiated by a man called Eugen Sanger and another scientist called Wolfgang Pilz. They joined the Research Institute of Jet Propulsion in Stuttgart, and they also worked with a man called Paul Gurkha and another one called Heinz Krug. They were the heads of the department. So when they are approached by Egypt to go there, they’re very, very willing. And Nasser appointed a man called Isam al din Mahmoud Khalil who was former director of air force intelligence and chief of the army’s research development to set up a proper compartmentalised rocket system away from the rest of the Egyptian Army.
So by 1960, he has recruited up to 35 highly-experienced German scientists, Nazis, who, Krug, by the way, remained behind in Germany to set up a company called Intercommercial. This was the group’s European front. So, now I’m not telling you a Frederick Forsyth tale, I’m telling you facts now. Nasser intended to use these Nazi scientists to create rockets that would fire on Israel. And they were also looking at chemical warfare. Now, the Israelis know about this. The Israelis, through intelligence, through Switzerland, they find out what Nasser is up to and they realise that what they must do is send someone to Egypt to really find out what’s going on. And Lotz is the ideal person because, remember, he’s tall, he’s blonde, he’s blue-eyed, he’s uncircumcised. And not only does he have perfect German, but remember he’d been interviewing POWs, German POWs. He could pose as anything.
So he’s sent to live in Germany in 1959. They sent him to Frankfurt to set up a cover story. He’s a German businessman, he’s ex-Wehrmacht who’d served in North Africa and was a former Nazi. He had huge insights into this. And I think from his personality, he just loved the danger. And where had he been? It’s now 1959. So the cover story was established. He’d lived in Australia for 11 years as a horse breeder. And he’d come to Egypt. What he wants to do is to establish a riding school.
Remember, he has great thespian skills. He has lots of stories of North Africa from his time working for the British. He interviewed hundreds of prisoners. If he sets up a riding club, which was very popular, not just with the Germans, but also with Egyptian high society, he can become at the centre in Cairo of what’s going on. So with Mossad money, he comes to Egypt, he sets up his riding school, he arrives in Cairo in 1960. By this time, Russian equipment is pouring in. Remember, the United Arab Republic of Syria and Egypt, which lasted between 1958 and 1961. So he’s very charming, he’s very attractive. And he gradually, and he begins…
They call him the Champagne Spy, remember. Why? With Mossad money, he hosts lavish parties, he has at his disposal, the most beautiful women, and he really sets up this whole infrastructure where Egyptian officers, ex-Nazis. And he, of course, poses as a violent antisemite. They come to his parties and they get on with the tale. He goes to Paris in 1961. He has a meeting with his wife, Rivka. He goes for a meeting with his handlers. And he’s given large amounts of money. They get cross with him 'cause he’s spending so much. But he says, “Look, if you want me to do this.” This is all in his autobiography. “You’ve got to give me the lifestyle I need.” And they also give him a transporter to communicate.
However, on his journey back to Egypt, he meets a beautiful German woman called Waltraud. He fell for her. And despite the fact that he was already married, he decided to marry her. And this is another thing that goes with reckless personalities. I think we would call them, I dunno what his wife called him, but I think we would call him amoral. He lived very much by his own rules. And Mossad was absolutely furious. He’d married a German civilian, this tall blonde. He describes her, “A tall, extremely pretty blue-eyed blonde with a curvaceous figure. My type.”
Mossad was absolutely furious, but his mission is too important. He’s really infiltrated into high society in Egypt. And what are they going to do? And he plays her too. She discovers his real occupation. So he tells her, remember, she’s West German. He’s a NATO spy. They’re worried about Russia’s influence in Egypt. And with this beautiful blonde wife, their social success escalates. As I said, he establishes a reputation as a rabid antisemite. He’s adored in Nazi circles. He actually infiltrates the SS in Egypt because, you know, they see him as one of them. And he gathers a huge amount of intelligence not only on the military, but on Egyptian industry.
Because who do you think comes to the parties? The big industrialists, the army chiefs. I mean, Yusuff Ali, who’s head of the Egyptian police becomes one of his closest friends. He’s living this extraordinary double life. Now also, one of the other things the Israelis wanted, they wanted lists of the Nazi scientists in Egypt who were working on the weaponry to attack Israel. Not only did he have the lists of those in Egypt, but of their families back in Germany. And he also learned that the Egyptians were having trouble finding a reliable guidance system. He was so popular that they invited him to visit secret bases near the Suez Canal. They allowed access to airports.
You know, these air chiefs taking him round. You know, this is this ex-Nazi, this attractive man who throws the best parties in town. They want to show off to him. So they show where the Egyptians have stationed their newly acquired MiG fighters, which have been sent in from Russia. And Lotz takes photos of the pilot standing by the planes. He says, “I want pictures of you brave men.” So he has all these pictures. And he was so, even the arms depots and air hangars were open to him. And, you see, Israel really need details of the SAM missiles being built near Suez and Ismailia.
Now, when he went around the various airfields, they even showed him where the mock-ups were. And later on in the '67 War, the intelligence was so good that they bombed the real planes and left the mock-ups. But anyway, much of this is actually supplied because of this derring-do character who’s really out of James Bond with no scruples. But he’s got a very important job to do. Ismailia is completely off limits. He took photographs and was arrested, but he told the commander of the base to call high-ranking officials, including the head of the Egyptian police. They all vouched for him. So it was just a boat. So, it was a game. Now, he also built, again, with Mossad money, he built his own racetrack.
Again, the cream… Can you imagine the cream of Egyptian society coming to the racetrack? Now, everybody wanted his invitations and it’s in response to his finding out not just where the scientists in Egypt were, but where the scientists in Germany lived that Mossad began to send letters. And I’m going to read you an extract from one. And there’s also another character involved in that, Otto Skorzeny. So I’m going to talk about in a minute. And this is one such list, which was supplied, sent by the Mossad to a family in Germany. “Your name now appears on our blacklist of German scientists employed in Egypt. We would like to think that you care for the safety of your wife, Elizabeth, and your two children, Neils and Trudi. It will be in your interest to cease working for the Egyptian military.”
He was also involved in sending letter bombs to scientists, and I’ll talk about that in a minute. So, but in 1965, the East German head of state visited Egypt. And as a gesture, remember where Lotz comes from? He comes from West Germany. And as a gesture, the Egyptians arrested 30 West German citizens, including Lotz and his wife, on February the 22nd, '65. Lotz thought he had been discovered and he confessed that he was a spy. But he stuck to his German cover story and claimed that the reason he did it is that the evil Jews had tempted him with money and he needed money for his riding club. Now, he gives another account in his autobiography where he states he was captured after a wireless set was discovered, hidden in a bathroom scale.
He’d used it to transmit Egyptian… He’d used it to transmit the Egyptian intelligence. And what had happened was, because the Russians were in town, they were very zealous and that was his story. What is the truth? We don’t know. Anyway, Lotz and his wife are put on trial. The Israelis played for an excellent German lawyer and ensured that a German observer from the embassy was there to observe the trial. Now, this is where everything goes a little bit haywire. A letter was sent to the chief prosecutor saying that Wolfgang Lotz was not Wolfgang Lotz. He was not a German from Frankfurt. He was not anything he appears to be. He was not a Christian. He was, in fact, a Jew. He was a major in the IDF and he was a Jewish spy. Now, you can imagine.
Now, what is interesting, and Lotz himself said that he felt the noose tightening around his neck. And please don’t forget that this coincides to the tragedy of Eli Cohen. Eli Cohen, of course, was the Mossad master spy who was in Damascus. And tragically, he was actually hanged. But for whatever reason, and it’s never really clear, the Egyptian authorities decided to discount this letter. Who wrote the letter? There’s some evidence that someone who hated Lotz in Israel may have written it, but the point is, the letter was discounted. So what happened to him is he was sentenced to life in prison. His wife was given three years and evidently in prison, again, he managed to charm the guards. He didn’t have a horrible life at all.
And after the '67 War, he and his wife were both released in exchange for 500 Egyptian prisoners of war, including nine generals. So Lotz and his wife are returns to Israel. He lived in Israel 'til 1973 when his wife died. He never went back to his first wife and his son. And he wasn’t really happy in Israel. He didn’t have the champagne lifestyle he wanted. And it’s quite often, I think those kind of restless personalities, they do far better in times of huge danger and when you’re living on the edge than they do in relative peace time. So in 1980, he goes to live in Germany, he goes to Munich, where a German publisher wants him to write for them. And, of course, he writes an autobiography. He starts writing books. He runs a sports department. He must have had the charm of the devil.
Can we see some more pictures of him, please, Shauna? Yes, there you have Cairo. Can we go back, actually? Can we go back to that please? Yeah, that’s Cairo in the 60s, the Cairo that he would’ve seen. And now let’s go on to him as an older man. Can we see that picture again, Shauna? He really must have had the charm of the devil because he met a beautiful young German journalist. The couple moved to an apartment in Munich where he lived until his death in 1993. Now, back in 1982, he does one more job for the Israelis when his old friend, Ariel Sharon, calls him back to Israel. This is after the invasion of Lebanon. And he needs someone with the charm of the devil to guide foreign journalists to Beirut to explain the Israelis’ position. And that’s exactly what he does.
But he goes back to Germany. He dies in Germany, but he’s buried in Israel with full military honours. And in an interview in 1970, he actually said, “Spying was the greatest game in the world.” So I just thought, after all the darkness we’ve been looking at, even though his life, of course it’s fractured. And of course it touches some very important and tragic events that we’re going to be dealing with later. And yet he is a man who really, he lived a James Bond kind of life. But now I want to come on to another individual who’s going to touch his life. And I think one of the, and Professor Pima has already mentioned him, and that’s Otto Skorzeny, because he’s going to be involved in the events in Egypt. And he is from a completely different background.
So could we see Otto Skorzeny? Yeah, you see the duelling scar. Now, who was he? His dates are 1908 to 1975. He came from a lower-middle-class Viennese background. He attended the University of Vienna where he studied engineering. Remember, this is post-war. This is a post-World War I where Austria has been completely humiliated. Vienna is now the capital of a tiny little country. It’s no longer the capital of a great empire. He gets his Schmisse in the duelling fraternities, which, those of you who studied Theodor Herzl will remember, he belonged to one of those fraternities.
All young men of any kind of substance, in inverted commas, I would hate that for anyone I loved, would join duelling societies. And you can see the scar. He also had a very reckless personality. But he was very unhappy with what was happening in Vienna. Vienna was known as Red Vienna. And in 1931, he joined the Nazi Party. Now, of course, in Austria it was illegal but he goes to Germany. And after the invasion of Germany, he joins Hitler’s bodyguard. He wanted to go into the air force, but he was turned down because he was too tall. So he is in Hitler’s bodyguard. He’s very reckless.
Again, he’s got this daredevil personality. And in December, 1942, he is wounded on the Eastern Front. He wins the Iron Cross. And because of his wound, he goes back to Berlin where he’s quite friendly with Ernst Kaltenbrunner. Now, I’m not making any comparisons between Lotz and Skorzeny, by the way. Lotz was a reckless daredevil, but I think was on the side of the good guys. Skorzeny was on the side of the really evil ones because Ernst Kaltenbrunner is one of the most evil characters that came out of the annals of Nazi history. He was an Austrian. He’d been at the same school as Adolf Eichmann. And it was he who took Eichmann under his wing. And after the death of Heydrich, he was really Eichmann’s boss.
So Skorzeny is a close pal of his. And Ernst Kaltenbrunner recognises Skorzeny’s daredevil and suggests… He’s already developed all sorts of ideas for unconventional warfare. He’s very interested in how partisans fight, how they go deep behind enemy lines. He’s interested in sabotage. He begins to set up units, training German soldiers in the art of sabotage, in the art of going deep inside enemy territory. Ironically, the Allies, at the same time, are training German Jews to do exactly the same. And he becomes involved. So he’s training, he’s training others.
But he becomes involved in a lot of incredible events. His first important one was in mid ‘43. It’s called Operation Francois. He is in charge of a group that was parachuted into Iran to make contact with the dissident mountain people to encourage them to revolt against the Allies. You see, there are lots of ways of winning a war. And one of the ways is to get the people to revolt against their masters. And if we can persuade the mountain people that we can do more for them. That was one of his first roles.
He also organised deep raids into the forests of Belarus, where many of you already know that characters like the Bielski, like Zorin were working on this kind of thing, you know, on the side of the good Jewish partisans, hiding in the woods. Not just looking after Jews who managed to make it, but actually leading revolt against the Germans. And the forests of Belarus, I’ve been there. It’s so thick, it’s extraordinary. And he trains the Nazis, the German soldiers, in the art of forest fighting. His next big operation was Operation Knight’s Leap, which was an attempt to kidnap Tito alive. It failed. But the next operation succeeded.
Operation Armoured Fist to kidnap the son of Miklos Horthy. Now, if you remember, Horthy was the head of the Hungarian state, allied to Germany. But by March, 1944, he’s not happy about the alliance. He believes Germany’s going to win the war. He wants to pull out. And what the Nazis do is they send in Skorzeny to kidnap his son, to hold him to ransom and to make him put in place, for instance, Szalasi who was head of the evil Arrow Cross. So he masterminds that. Operation Gryphon. This is disinformation during the Battle of the Bulge. Also, he was involved in an attempt to assassinate the Big Three in Tehran, Operation Long Jump. That, of course, failed.
At the end of the war, he was running something called Operation Werwolf, which was really to stir up resistance in occupied Europe post-war to prepare for the coming of the Fourth Reich. Now, this daredevil, this Nazi daredevil had been awarded the highest honour that the Germans could give, the Oak Leaf added to the Knight’s Cross. He was interned and tried in 1947 for violating the rules of war. What does that mean? He had worn enemy uniform in the time of the Battle of the Bulge. However, he was acquitted. A special British operative called Yeo-Thomas gave evidence in his defence. A lot of people were attracted to Skorzeny. I mean, when I said that Lotz was amoral, I mean, this man fought on the side of evil. There’s no question about that.
And yet he had a sort of daredevilishness about him that appealed to other kind of adventurers. And of course the SOE was an adventurer organisation. So consequently, Yeo-Thomas gave evidence and said, “Look, we did exactly the same.” He was detained in Darmstadt, awaiting denazification. Should this man be allowed to go free? There were courts all over Germany denazifying, whatever that means. And he escaped, probably with American help. You’ve got to remember that the Allies, the British, the Americans, the Russians, the French, many of these top Nazis, as the Cold War developed, could be useful to many of them. And many of them.
It’s not just the scientists. It’s also, if you think about the creation… And have you any idea how many ex-Nazis worked for the CIA? For British intelligence? For the Russians? I mean, in East Germany the Stasi was packed with ex-Nazis. You know, when David and Dennis talked about justice and din, it’s a very, very murky world and I think one should always consider the morality of the individual and the morality of a state. Do they ever coincide? Anyway, he escaped probably with the help of the Americans who he was doing jobs for. He held out on a farm, which was rented by Hjalmar Schacht’s niece.
Hjalmar Schacht had been head of the Reichsbank. This was his niece, the countess, a very beautiful woman. And Skorzeny divorced his wife so that he could be with her. So he’s hiding out with a beautiful countess who he later marries. He moves to Madrid, another safe haven for Nazis. Just think of Franco Spain. He published his memoirs and the publicity made him decide to flee. He became an advisor to Naguib. He was the character who took over from Farouk before Nasser. And he recruited staff for Naguib and later on for Nasser.
I’ve already mentioned that you have Haj Amin al-Husseini, but he brings quite a lot of SS and Wehrmacht officers into Egypt to train the Egyptian Army. Amongst them were General Wilhelm Fahrmbacher and Oskar Munzel, who’d been head of the Gestapo Department for Jewish Affairs in Poland. And Leopold Gleim. Leopold Gleim actually, after the war, converted to Islam. He became Ali al-Nahar. As did a man called Lehrs, who was one of the head propagandists. I mentioned him before. He was one of Goebbels’ men brought in by Haj Amin al-Husseini, in charge of anti-Israel propaganda.
I don’t know if any of you have the misfortune to see the propaganda that came out of Egypt then and still comes out of the Arab world today. Really the demonization of the Jew, which was borrowed tragically from the Christian world. And these characters are in charge of it. Anyway, he also brings in a man called Joachim Daemling who was the former chief of the Gestapo in Dusseldorf. He trained Arab volunteers in commando tactics against Israel. Think about the Fedayeen. And many raids from Gaza. Gaza was under Egyptian control, remember.
You know, in 1948 after the War of Independence, what happened to Palestine? Well, Israel took a little of the West Bank, but the bulk of the West Bank was taken by Jordan and Gaza was taken by Egypt. And that’s when the refugee camps were set up. The raids from Gaza were planned by Skorzeny and he stays on with Nasser. And one of the characters he actually trained was a young man called Yasser Arafat. He also, he never stays still. He goes to Spain. He travels to Argentina where he advises Juan Peron and also provided for Eva. He wanted to check that her bodyguards were good enough. And he trains in South America. He fosters the ambition for the Fourth Reich in South America.
Now, this is where everything goes completely crazy because in 1963, and this is confirmed by the Mossad, by Isser Harel, he was recruited by the Mossad to obtain information on Nazi scientists in Egypt. Now, why did he do it? There are many reasons. Have we ever really worked it out? One of the reasons given is that he was on Simon Wiesenthal’s wanted list and he didn’t want to be on it. But I don’t think a man like that would’ve given a damn. I really don’t know. Anyway, Wiesenthal refused to take his name off the list. And we know that Israeli, ‘cause it’s been cross-referenced in other memoirs.
You know, the Israelis went in with guns. But somewhere along the line, he made a decision that this is something he does want to get involved in. Maybe he wanted the risk. So he’s visited by Mossad in Spain and he decides to work for them. And he becomes part of the planning that is going on with with Lotz. He assassinates the rocket scientist, Heinz Krug. Now you will remember that Heinz Krug was the man, the German scientist, who stayed behind in Germany to set up the European front factory. He was assassinated by Skorzeny. He also mailed the letter bomb that killed five Egyptians. He also supplied the names of Nazi scientists and their addresses in Europe, which I’ve also referred to already.
Now, along with that, he’s helping Nazis get out of Europe. He founds and is advisor to the leadership of a Spanish neo-Nazi group, which was established in 1966. He decided to buy a stud farm in Ireland. He was refused residency so he could only spend six weeks of the year there. Sometimes he was in Spain, sometimes he was in Egypt. He just, he walked the world. And in the late 1960s, he established something called the Paladin Group, where he provided strategic assault personnel for all sorts of regimes, including the South African Bureau of State Security. He armed and trained guerrilla groups. He carried out work for the Greek military junta, 1967 to 1974. So basically he worked for anyone.
But what is fascinating is he worked for the Mossad. Now, did the Mossad have any qualms taking him on? Well this is the problem, isn’t it? When Israel became a state, particularly a state under unbelievable threat. Is it possible to be the state dreamt of by characters like Ahad Ha'am? It’s a very, very difficult question. Israel needed characters like him. Now, whatever we think of him personally, he helped the Mossad and the hell one rockets never fired and the Egyptian scientists did leave Egypt. And what happened is, of course, that the Russians sent the Scuds in to replace them because can you imagine, if all these scientists are being killed, well, you’re not going to stay, are you?
So many of them… Actually, they all left. All 35 of them left. And the whole issue was actually revealed in Switzerland where the daughter of one of the sciences, a man called Gertz, was actually approached by some Israeli agents and somehow it all got out to the Swiss police and there was a big scandal. And the scandal led to real problems with Mossad and Harel resigning. And later on, Ben-Gurion resigned over it. So it’s a very interesting, quite a dark episode.
But going back to Skorzeny. 1970, he had cancer. He fought it for five years. He dies in Madrid. He has a Roman Catholic cathedral, he has a Roman Catholic burial in the major cathedral in Madrid. The coffin is draped in a Nazi flag and the funeral is attended by dozens of Nazis who gave the Hitler salute. How do we know this? Because Mossad was there monitoring it. So the story of two extraordinary individuals, many traits in personality that are similar, but one I believe, in the end, is on the side of the angels and the other is on the side of the devil. But it also shows you what states have to do to survive. So some real life James Bond-ery there.
Q&A and Comments
So let’s have a look at the questions. Here we go. Ah, Wendy, you’ll be pleased to know a lot of people like our chitchat. They don’t want us to stop. The first time, Wendy-
That’s funny.
Including someone called Dale. “We are family. Love the closeness. Keep up the chitchat.” “We love you Trudy and Wendy. Ignore complaints.”
[Wendy] Is there?
“Au contraire, it’s fun to listen to you. Alex and I love the personal chitchat. It’s your LU and us beginners want personal chitchat.” So nearly all the questions are about chitchat. “What are the complaints?”
Well, you know what? I’m hoping. I’m working, just about the chitchat. I am working on the, been making progress with the website. We are finally making progress with the website. And maybe we could have like a chitchat room. We can talk about that.
I love that. And, I mean, Cheryl has given us about 20 hugs. “We love your chitchat so you better not stop it, Wendy. You guys are the family now. We love the chitchat. Carry on, chitchatting.” I don’t think I’ve got any questions. “Trudy, Wendy, Judy, I think you’re all fabulous. I’m so…” Oh, lovely. This isn’t what my family.
Thank you.
Says about me. I’m just seeing if we got any questions. “I just wanted to say just chat all you want. If people don’t like it, they can join later on, not listen. And thank you for this session.” Okay.
Well, we always do start two minutes late because I never, I always live my life where I don’t waste a minute, I’m rushing through life, I guess. And so I always make it just in time because my father goes absolutely nuts if anybody’s even one minute late. So they’re just in time. I give everybody extra two minutes.
I got one question.
Q: “What was the name of the German woman he later met and married?” A: That was Waltraud. Can we see his picture again through… Please Sheila last minute. He looks like Michael Heseltine.
Margaret, “What a story.” “Otto who?” Otto Skorzeny.
“Skorzeny also rescued Mussolini in a daring mountain operation.” Yes, he rescued him once. The next time, Mussolini wasn’t so… He wasn’t so lucky the second time.
Q: “What happened to Skorzeny’s countess while he was traipsing around from country to country?” A: She’d hang around, but there were many women in many countries.
“And compared to these two,” said Ellie, “Bond is a novice.”
Carol’s saying, “I don’t have any complaints.” Thank you, Carol. It’s all about chitchat. They love us as we are.
Q: “What is the name of the book that Skorzeny wrote?” A: I cannot remember. I will get it for you. It’s out of my head at the moment.
Q: “Were there other known association with spies and stuff?” A: Look, obviously yes. The world of spying. And you know, one of the problems, I have a girlfriend, Helen Fry, who writes books on spies and she does a lot of research down in the archives. What is really fascinating is the number of Jews who were involved in working for the Allies in the Second World War. But one of the problems is that, you know, there’s a 50-year rule and some things never ever come out. So…
Q: “Will I do a lecture on Eli Cohen?” A: Yes, of course. Later on. Yes.
“And this is the Camp Richard story of German Jews who fought in the U.S. Army. It’s worth study.” Yes, I agree. Mickey, there will be a recording of all these talks once the website is live.
Oh, this is from Veronica. You’ll like this Wendy. “Those who don’t like the chitchat should ask for a refund.” Oh dear.
“Missed the first part of the lecture. We had severe weather in Naples.” “Did you tell us about another ex-Nazi?” No, as far as I know, Skorzeny was the only one. I think that’s all the questions today, Wendy.
So… Spies. Are there any other comments? I think we can start chitchatting again if you like. Wendy? Can’t hear you. Shauna? Oh, I think maybe more.
That was wonderful, thank you, Trudy.
I think we’ve got no more questions, have we?
Okay, so we will jump off early.
I love your backdrop. It’s absolutely extraordinary.
Well, it’s beautiful. This is LA. This is, you know, this is…
Oh, it’s absolutely amazing.
[Wendy] West Hollywood.
West Hollywood. Oh.
The Bird Streets. I think it’s West Hollywood. Yeah.
We’ll be getting out there eventually. All right, my darling.
I look forward to that.
Have a lovely evening.
Thank you very much.
And take care.
Thank you.
God bless, everyone.
Very good.
Bye.
Thanks, everyone.
Bye.
Bye-bye.