Trudy Gold
Trudy Gold in Conversation with Anita Lasker-Wallfisch
Trudy Gold in Conversation With Anita Lasker-Wallfisch
- Hi, Trudy. Hello, Anita. Hello, everybody. A very, very, very, very warm welcome to both of you. I just want to say before we begin today’s session and before I introduce our honoured guest, we unfortunately had an incident yesterday where the internet wasn’t working. And sometimes, the lines do go down and we do have issues and we do have problems. And it was sort of reminiscent, it reminded me of my days when I was at when we weren’t, we didn’t tow the line. If we walked on the grass or we didn’t stand up straight, or we are a little bit cheeky to our teachers, we got demoted. So, what I wanted to say was really yesterday, a lot of our participants were extremely rude to Judy and it was as if it was her fault that BT went down. And I just wanted to say that after that, I felt like saying, “You know what? I wanted all those who were rude to Judy, are being demoted from gratefuls to ungratefuls.” And so what I wanted to say, is that I know that this is a very difficult time, that people are going through a lot of mental turmoil and anguish.
And while I actually do believe in freedom of speech, I think it is very, very important that we have basic decorum, tolerance and self-restraint. So please, please, everybody, I know that this is a difficult time. I know that there are disappointments. I know that things don’t always go according to plan. But honestly and truly, we are doing our best to please you. And when things don’t go well, hold back, turn off your TV sets, or be patient with the rest of us. Because really and truly, we built a beautiful family of respect. And we just want you to maintain that level of integrity. And we are very, very lucky that a lot of our participants are present today. And today, we are very, very lucky to have Anita Lasker-Wallfisch with us. So now what I’d like to do, is I’d like to just say a very, very, very warm welcome, Anita. It’s an absolute pleasure to have you with us. And I know you’re a great, great friend of Trudy’s. And so I’d like to welcome Mrs. Lasker-Wallfisch. So, Anita Lasker-Wallfisch was born in Breslau in 1925, one of three sisters. Her father, who had been awarded the Iron Cross in World War I, was a lawyer. Her mother was a violinist and uncle, a chessmaster. Her sister Marianne managed to escape to England in 1939. In April, 1942, her parents were deported and murdered.
Anita and her sister Renate were working in a paper factory and stayed. They began to forge documents to enable French forced labourers to escape. In September, 1942, she and Renate tried to escape, but were arrested by the Gestapo at the train station and imprisoned. The two sisters were sent to Auschwitz in December in 1943. Anita was a talented musician and became a member of the Woman’s Orchestra. As she later said, “The cello saved my life.” In the wake of the Soviet advance, Anita and her sister were part of the evacuation from the camp in October, 1944. From the hell of Auschwitz, she arrived in the hell of Bergen-Belsen. On April 15th, 1945, the British Army took the camp. Anita was a witness at the Belsen trial of 1945. She came to Britain in 1946 and co-founded the English Chamber Orchestra. She married the pianist, Peter Wallfisch and has two children, four grandchildren and three great-grandchildren. A very, very, very warm welcome, Anita, it’s a pleasure to have you with us on Lockdown University today and I’m thrilled that Trudy is going to be there, interviewing you. Much, much appreciated. Over to both of you. Thank you.
Thank you, Wendy. It’s lovely to be on screen with two of my favourite women. And I should say this, Anita hates compliments, but she has been such an inspiration to me in my work. And the fact that we live near each other, I spend an awful lot of time with her, talking about life. And that’s one of the things that I want to get onto. I’m not just going to talk to her about her experiences. I want to talk to her about a lot of her opinions. Because Anita has lived not just a tragic life, of course, the early part of her life was tragic, but she’s lived a big life and she’s influenced and made a huge difference to a lot of people. And I suppose, looking back, Anita, I want to start with Breslau, because that’s where you were born. And you really did have, from what you’ve told me and what you’ve written, she wrote a brilliant book, by the way, called “Inherit the Truth”, some books you really must read. It is still available. It’s called “Inherit the Truth”. But I suppose you’d have to call it a background of the enlightenment, didn’t you? You’d talk a little bit about your family, your father and mother?
Yes, it was. But it was not unusual in those days, you know? People who were not particularly religious, just blended in with the surroundings. And what was a very important, that culture was written in very big letters. But I don’t think that was so unusual. But maybe the unusual thing in my family, was that we were made to speak French, which I thought was a bit stupid. But it was very useful to me. So there was music, there was languages, there was classic reading and yeah, just nice family.
Just a family of , that word, you try and explain to me so often. I don’t think English jury really understands it, cultivation. And of course the real break, Hitler comes to power, and then you have Kristallnacht. Can you talk a little about Kristallnacht and how it impacted all-
Well, in Kristallnacht, I happened to be in Berlin. So, I was a child. I didn’t notice anything during the night. But the next morning I went out into the street and I saw what’s been happening. I mean, it is indescribable. There was liquor running down the street, gallons of it and glass, unbelievable sight, yeah.
Hmm. But your father, something interesting happened to him on Kristallnacht, didn’t it? Didn’t a friend help him?
Yes. Well, I mean, that was when the big roundup came of Jewish people.
After Kristallnacht.
There was a very, very nice family, violin dealers in Breslau, very anti-Nazi and pro-Jewish. And this violin dealer came in his Mercedes, which was very unusual in those days to our house and picked up my father and drove him around all day long, which was a very dangerous thing for a German to do.
Mm-hmm .
So my father was one of the few people, who was not arrested.
[Trudy] Hmm.
But he was arrested the next year. I mean, in the end, it didn’t help. But it’s just to show that not every German was a criminal.
With the hindsight of history, can you make any sort of sense of why Hitler came to power? Why so many cult people?
Well, if you look back at the economic situation in those days, Auschwitz was so dangerous now, I mean, Germany was absolutely rock-bottom at the time, tremendous unemployment, et cetera. And there came this guy who promised work. I mean, it’s all very primitive really. It’s not a mystery work. Suddenly we don’t have to stand in the door queue. We are working, so we are somebody again.
[Trudy] Hmm.
And from that, it grew into this madness.
Did you ever really-
Germans are very conscious of hierarchy. I mean, somebody higher up must know better, you know? Yeah.
So you think it’s the fact that you believed it was a society where everybody knew their place in that society and-
Yeah, yeah.
But the level of anti-Semitism, did you experience it much when you were actually growing up? Did your parents-
I didn’t experience it much. But the first time I did experience this, it was at my little private school that I went to and I was eight years old, it was a 1933 and somebody wouldn’t allow me to wipe the blackboard, because I was a Jew. This is the first time I heard this. And then I went home and asked my father, “What exactly does that mean?” Yeah, well, it didn’t take very long to understand what it meant.
[Trudy] Hmm.
But that’s how it started, so young, you see? There was a child at school who said, “If there is
a Jew in that school, he must not wipe the blackboard.” I mean, we are going back to such ridiculous happenings. But I mean, that’s how it happens. The poison sat in slowly and took hold.
Yeah. And after Kristallnacht, I mean, your sister got out. Your parents wanted to get out, didn’t they after Kristallnacht?
Well, wanted is not-
[Trudy] Everybody wanted it.
I mean, it was desperate, the situation was desperate. We tried all sorts of things out. But funnily enough, all the correspondence tried to get somewhere and in the end, my father realised that it was impossible to find something for the whole family. He tried desperately to get us children out, but he didn’t succeed. I mean, I was supposed to go to France. I mean, that wouldn’t have helped me either.
Hmm. So today, you feel it’s not just what the Germans and the Nazis did, is it? It’s what other people didn’t do?
Yeah, you can put it that way.
I think it’s a very important look. Obviously, they’re not the perpetrators, but, and then of course, the deportations. And you and your sister decide, you were in a paper factory, you decided it was better to become criminals, didn’t you?
To become what?
Criminals! You were criminals according to the Gestapo.
Well, I mean, we didn’t realise the system. We only understood the system. I mean, we were very harmless children. I was what, 16, 17? I mean, it’s ridiculous.
[Trudy] Yeah.
I was not prepared to sit and wait till somebody comes to collect me in order to kill me. That just somehow didn’t fit into my repertoire.
[Trudy] Hmm.
So we were quite the cheeky children, I must say. What we did is , it is absolutely ridiculous. So I wasn’t going to just wait and sit and wait. I was going to do something, try and escape, which we did, not successfully, but at least we tried.
[Trudy] Hmm.
And that particular process, it’s too long to go into all the details now, this was a ridiculous system in Germany, that it was advantageous according to German law to be a criminal rather than a Jew. Because a criminal actually gets a court case. A Jew is nothing. A Jew gets eliminated. So we advanced to a better category as criminals, which allowed us to stay in prison for over a year, for well, nearly a year. Had I gone straight to a concentration camp, I wouldn’t be speaking to you today.
Hmm. But your life is full of extraordinary events.
[Anita] Yeah.
And would you speak about that letter that you wrote from prison? You wrote a letter, didn’t you from prison to a friend of the family? The German-
No, I-
Or was that letter, did she write-
No, I wrote a letter that has come to light only about a year ago.
[Trudy] Yeah.
Two letters, one written by my sister, with whom I was no longer together. Because she was sentenced to penitentiary and I was still in prison. We wrote sort of goodbye letters to life. And I’ve got these letters now, which is quite unbelievable, yes.
That is . And then of course, you were deported to Auschwitz. How much did people know about Auschwitz do you think? It’s ‘43 now, did you know what it meant to you?
Yes. We knew about-
[Trudy] Yeah, 'cause this is so important.
We knew about Auschwitz.
Yeah, yeah. Of course, you knew.
We couldn’t quite believe it. Do you see what I mean?
Yeah. And how did it happen, how did it come about that you went into the orchestra in the
process? What happened that they found out that you-
Well, this, it’s very simple. It’s very simple.
[Trudy] Yeah.
I mean, I’ve just been reading some old articles that have been written about me. I was recruited, that’s rubbish. There was an, you can’t call it an orchestra, a cappella, a band, which started its life in Birkenau.
[Trudy] Hmm.
And as it happens, I arrived at the moment where the cellist that was already there had died. So they were short of a cellist. And when I said to the prisoner, who shaved my hair and asked me, “What’s going on and how long will the war last?” I said, God knows why, yeah, she asked me, “What did you do before the war?” I said, “Well, I used to play the cello.” “Fantastic!” That’s how it happened.
[Trudy] Yeah.
So she said, “Wait, here.” She went away, “Wait here, don’t move.” By that time, I was naked, without hair, with a number on my arm.
[Trudy] Hmm.
What I suppose I’m waiting for? Along came the conductor of this orchestra, which was Alma Rose, the daughter of Arnold Rose. That is how it happened. It wasn’t, I wasn’t recruited, you know? I mean, that sounds so normal. There was nothing that was normal.
It was-
And they were delighted! So I became the cellist, the only cellist, which had the advantage that one could refer to me as the cellist, because there was only one and that was me.
Nice. And Alma was a very special woman, wasn’t she?
Yes. I mean, she was of course a desperate woman. But she managed to create out of something, which is unbelievable, something that survived as long as the Germans wanted us.
Hmm. Yeah. I remember when I went to Innsbruck with you and we saw those playbills, her father was playing at the Wigmore Hall in 1943 when she was in Auschwitz. That must have been, ah, it’s beyond imagination. So somehow you survived. And from what you’ve told me about the orchestra, I think people, they have misunderstandings about it. It’s a group of people
who came together, really, isn’t it? And people have often said, “How did you feel?” I won’t ask any questions like that. I think it’s ridiculous to ask those kind of questions. I mean, presumably, it was survival, day by day.
Of course.
Exactly. And then the Russians are advanced, so they send you to another hell, to Belsen.
Yeah, only the Jewish members of the orchestra.
[Trudy] Yeah.
[Anita] We were sent to Belsen, yeah.
Was there much contact between the Jewish and the non-Jewish members of the orchestra? Did you socialise-
[Anita] Hardly-
[Trudy] Well, talk, did you talk languages?
Hardly any contact because of language problems.
Language, yeah.
[Anita] I don’t speak as a lot of Polish girls there.
Yeah.
The Russian girls, I don’t speak the language. So there was no, but luckily, really many, many years later, I got in contact again with one of the non-Jewish members of the orchestra. And it is a pity that we couldn’t communicate, because we assumed that everybody was anti-Semitic and we never asked them, “Why are you actually there?” You know? There was a tremendous division due to language problems really.
And you developed a sort of relationship much later on, didn’t you with a Polish member of the group? You met her.
Absolutely! Absolutely!
[Trudy] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I’m very proud of it.
Yes. Then Belsen and then the British and I don’t want to go into too much detail, because they should read your book on this. And in Belsen of the liberation, I’m not, no, I shouldn’t even call it a liberation, the British bumped into Belsen, when did you realise you were alive? I suppose that’s the point. And that you were starting to play-
[Anita] It took a while.
[Trudy] Yeah.
Yeah, I think for a while, we thought we must be dreaming.
[Trudy] Yeah.
Yeah, but we went.
Yeah and some British soldiers too were kind to you and didn’t one of them find you an instrument?
Yeah, well that goes-
[Trudy] Yeah, yeah.
Much later.
[Trudy] Yeah.
[Anita] Yeah, that’s much later, yeah.
And then you come to Britain. Tell us a bit about that. You come to England.
Well, what can I tell you? I mean, it’s a very difficult process.
Yeah.
Very difficult process to get permission to come to England.
[Trudy] I think it’s important.
Well, I mean, I was hell-bent on making up lost time, you know? I wasn’t thinking of anything other than starting to catch up with what I’ve lost, eight years of my life.
Mm-hmm . And there were some very interesting English people, who were involved in
helping, weren’t there?
Helping in what? Where?
Getting you here, people who helped you get back into music. Yes?
No, I don’t quite know what you-
No, I mean, you got to England and what was the first step from then on?
Well, first in England, I look for “Where do I study, where’s a teacher?”
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was the first thing? And then you went-
[Anita] Yeah, that was it.
Yeah.
[Anita] Pardon?
[Trudy] And then you went, go on, sorry.
No, no, you go on.
Then you went to Paris and by accident sort of, you met up with a boy you’d known at school, yeah?
Correct, yeah.
Peter Wallfisch. And could you tell us his story, how he got out? Because that’s, not many people know about this story.
Well, his story is very mysterious. I mean, there was a man in Palestine by the name of Hauser, who had the brilliant idea to try and save musically talented children. It was a pretty clandestine operation and I’m not sure, I can’t really tell you exactly how it went. But he managed to get an advertisement into the paper to Germany and Austria obviously that talented children should present themselves on a certain day, et cetera, et cetera. So all the Jewish mothers turned towards their talented children and they were chosen, whether the people thought they were worthy of it and one of them was Peter Wallfisch. And that’s how he got to Palestine.
The agony behind that is just indescribable, isn’t it?
[Anita] Yeah.
If you think what you choose and how you choose. So tell me about Beethoven’s desk, please.
Well, it so happened that when I got to London, I don’t know how that happened, but I got into this company of, there was a piano teacher in Golders Green, a Russian lady who was a very excellent pianist, but in London, she could only just be a teacher. So everybody who lived anywhere near Golders Green, had their children taught in Ms. Tamara Osborne. And I don’t know how I got into the circle, but there, I met a family called Altman. And that is a family that was finally through marriage, related with Stefan Zweig. So that’s how I got into the Stefan Zweig business you see?
[Trudy] Hmm.
And of course, as we all know, that Stefan Zweig was a collector. He collected manuscripts, he collected everything that was collectible among other things. I finally lived in the house of the Altmans, who were fantastic and great friends to me till the day. Among other furniture in the house, was Beethoven’s writing desk. Yeah, so I was quite familiar with these unbelievable articles, yes.
Yeah. So coming back to life, you settle in England, you co-found the English Chamber Orchestra. You’ve had the most extraordinary musical life. And I really want to invite you back to talk about that, probably with Patrick. Because I should just mention, the other day, I was at Anita’s and we were looking at albums and something fell out. And it was a picture of you at Pierre Salinger’s birthday party, playing to Rose Kennedy and a few other people. And having a quick glance, you’ve had such an extraordinary life, Anita through your music, but also through using the experiences you’ve been through and somehow wanting to change people. Will you talk about how you first went back to Germany? 'Cause I think this is quite important.
Well, I mean, my hatred of the Germans was limitless. You can well imagine. And with the orchestra, I played with English Chamber, of course, we went everywhere, you know? Every month we got a list where we going, America, France, Germany. And Anita was always excused from going to Germany. I have no problem if somebody else goes. But on this particular list, I saw the names of Soltau and Celle and these are little towns very near Belsen. And there, I had this sort of inspiration that I would quite like to see what has become of Belsen. That’s how it started.
[Trudy] Hmm.
And so I phoned up the orchestra, I said, “Look here, I’m coming with you this time.” They were very frightened. They thought I’ll bring a rifle with me and I shoot everybody. I said, “ shoot anybody, I won’t even talk to anybody.” Okay. We arrive in Celle where the first concert was supposed to be. And lo and behold, and we were supposed to rehearse the music stent hadn’t
arrived. So I was quite impressed that not everything works hundred percent even in Germany. And we sat around and waited for the music stent. And at that juncture, I was sitting there smoking obviously, waiting, it must have somehow got around that this woman who’s sitting there, she was once in the camp. Somehow people knew who I was. And I was approached then by a young man, obviously a German, who said, “I hear you want to go to the camp. You have to have a car, you see? Could I take you?” So I had this moment of decision, 'cause here, I’m in Germany and I wasn’t going to talk to any Germans. But there was a German in front of me. So what do I do now? So luckily, my brain turned in the right direction for once. And I asked him what one doesn’t usually do, “How old are you?”
Hmm.
He was born after the war. So I mean, I realised somebody’s born after the war, does not have to say to me that he wasn’t a Nazi. 'Cause he wasn’t even there. What his father was doesn’t interest me anymore. Anyhow, cut a long story short, I said, “Okay.” This man, to the day, is a friend of mine. It just shows you how stupid you can be, just because you are German or because you’re Jewish, you are this, that and the other. Yeah. And this is how I came back to Germany. And on this particular trip, lots of things happened, which I, looking back, is almost as if it was planned. Because then I drove to the camp, to the camp where we were liberated, et cetera, which is the most then in English, yeah, what you call it, British. And I wanted to go to the cemetery and we couldn’t find the cemetery. But finally we found it. And there was a group of people standing, one of them, a rabbi, the rest, all officers and a few civilians. And as I approached, I mean, it’s unbelievable story, as I approached a group of people, the rabbi looked at me and said, “You are Anita, aren’t you?”
There are many years have gone by. I said, “Yes, not only am I Anita, but I still play the cello.” He then introduced me to a young man by the name of Dr. , whose job it was to create a suitable memorial in camp. And he was absolutely delighted to meet somebody who was there. “We’re looking for people like you.” So it’s a long story, but it was obvious that it had arrived at the right moment. And I’ve been able to contribute an enormous amount to the various memorials that are built there. I’ve opened three memorials already there. The last one is the most impressive memorial I’ve ever seen. So chapeau to the people in Belsen. And that young man that is still there now. Yeah.
Yeah. And you do an awful lot of work in Germany. And I think one of the most extraordinary things I’ve seen, is in 2018, you addressed the German parliament on the anniversary for 27th of November, which the task force decided, it was the liberation of Auschwitz. That was extraordinary! You were there-
[Anita] Yeah.
In the German parliament with the president of Germany and Mrs. Merkel, addressing the German parliament. When you got on that podium, because I know you worked incredibly hard
on your speech, and of course the speech was superb, but when you got up there and you were reading that speech, did you have to pinch yourself? I mean-
Yeah. I said, “What the hell are you doing here now?” Yeah.
And I can remember also when we went to Innsbruck, you were awarded a doctorate by 16 different departments in the university and the president of Austria got one. I mean, it must, and I know you have so many medals and so many honorary doctorates, what does it do to you? I mean, what does it actually do to Anita? 'Cause I know you and you’d just brush it all up, but brush it all away.
[Anita] I smile.
[Trudy] You smile.
I smile. What is this?
Is it a spot of cynicism?
I know it is in a way to assure it’s their own bad feeling. I’m no more a doctorate of divinity that I am in Cambridge than I’m anything else. It’s, yeah, I’m a bit of an onlooker. And I think it’s all very, very funny.
You kind of, you do step outside yourself. I’ve seen that. It’s absolutely-
Yeah, so now what’s happening? Where am I now? Funny place, yeah.
And when-
[Anita] German parliament?
Yeah, I mean, that must have been bizarre.
I have a nice correspondence, Mrs. Merkel. She’s a very, very good lady.
Yeah, perhaps one of the best in Europe actually.
[Anita] Yeah.
But the other issue that I found fascinating, when Prince Charles went to Yad Vashem and he gave them an address, he talked about you. It was all about-
Well, I mean, that’s a different department. Because he happened to be connected with the
English Chamber Orchestra, you know?
Yeah, I know. But you’ve sort of, having been to hell, you’ve had this extraordinary life since, haven’t you? And it’s almost too much, isn’t it, the juxtaposition of the two experiences?
Well, what can I do? That’s how it was.
But now, I mean, there are so many television programmes where you are in now and you’re asked to speak. But the , have we learned any of the lessons in your view now?
Of course not. I mean, it’s just, what goes around, comes around. I mean, we are all in trouble now and somebody’s got to be guilty. It’s the Jews. I’m very doubtful about this sort of being nice to other people as well. Of course, I was a Holocaust, but there was also Rwanda, et cetera. But we mustn’t think that the Holocaust is unique. The Holocaust is unique, because to put Rwanda and the Holocaust, say Rwanda, we could say by how many people were murdered all over the place together, is getting away from the fact. Because the Holocaust, actually anti-Semitism not only goes on, but is thriving. Nobody pursues a Rwandan in the street. So there must be a difference. And why not have a day to commemorate Rwanda and all the other terrible things, but apart from the Holocaust? Don’t mix it up and don’t feel that you are being generous and nice. No, it is not actually adhering to the truth. We have to be very careful. I mean, anti-Semitism is doing extremely well.
You’re not in the least bit saying that we shouldn’t honour the dead anywhere and-
[Anita] Absolutely!
I totally agree with you on that. I mean, there have been so many tragedies, but I think we’ve got this idea now that if we lump them all together in a soup of catastrophe and honour it, then maybe we’ll go forward. But what you are saying, is there’s absolutely no rigour in that. And the other point that you’ve talked about a lot, is how the Holocaust is taught. You think it’s, you are very worried about that, aren’t you?
Yes. I mean, I know and I’ve done that myself. You go to schools, you tell the children the terrible stories that happened to your family and they’re all very sad and write you very sweet letters. I’ve got a whole collection of them. And then what? What have they really learned? That one shouldn’t be nasty to other people? But basically they have learned nothing. I think what is necessary is to teach people Jewish history. Who are these people, these peculiar people? Jews. Jews is not a . I don’t know what the English word is for that, a word that covers everything. We are completely different people. You’ll never believe it. I mean, I have a very nice physiotherapist, coming to her age 30-ish from Romania. She’s never heard the word holocaust, never been taught at school or anything. No idea.
[Trudy] Hmm.
So something has gone terribly, terribly wrong. But unless you try and explain and I admit it is extremely complicated, who these peculiar people are, these Jews, you will never actually understand anything. It doesn’t have to result in that you love all the Jews, but don’t murder them!
I think because you and I have discussed this a lot, I think it’s like you can’t rip the holocaust out of the context of Jewish history, which I think, is happening so often.
[Anita] You can’t!
And also the other issue, I’ve had people say to me, “Well, what’s the connection between the Holocaust and Israel?” There is no connection. And I think that’s a product of a very bad education as well.
Of course! Without the Holocaust, probably or maybe, there might not be an Israel now. Israel had to recreate it out of the conscience of the world. Not everybody was for it. And of course, immediately the disaster happened, because other people are living there.
[Trudy] Yeah, so-
Yeah, it is a very sad story. But you ask anybody whether they know that there are Sephardic Jews and Ashkenazi Jews, “Never heard of it.”
[Trudy] Hmm.
Did you know that the Jews in Iraq had to leave when the state of Israel was declared and told, “You’ve got a home now, go home.” I mean, it is absurd what you think you can do with Jews.
[Trudy] Hmm.
You know what I mean? This is absurd! So unless you learn a little bit about Jewish history.
And what do you think about-
But as I said, you don’t have to love us, but don’t murder us!
There are 300 Holocaust museums worldwide.
[Trudy] So?
And that there’s an incredible shot of you in some television programme, sitting on the, that strange museum in the middle of memorial in the middle of Berlin with this sort of steely and you
are sitting on one and your face is just a picture. You don’t really believe they work, do you? These-
No, well, I mean, funnily enough, I was asked about that only the other day. My idea when that was mounted, when it was first mounted, it was an idea of putting concrete down and 6 million names. I said, “Well, this is absolutely stupid, because one name might have to be repeated 10 times.”
[Trudy] Hmm.
And the dogs will, they relieve themselves on top of us. And so what they asked me what I would like to see there? I said, “I would like to see a garden, a place that people like to go to, not a place that people avoid.” A beautiful garden has to be looked after by young people. Every year, they have to look at the lovely plants in it and the names of all the various killing places. And some think, “Beautiful,” where people like to go and perhaps think and not want to keep away from it, because it’s not inviting. The result of course, I’ve said that on television, was when I came home, I got a whole lot of German garden catalogues sent to me. Yeah.
You always-
Yeah. Anyway, that I would’ve liked to see that, that children actually look after these plants and that Jews are not all dead for God’s sake.
I think we need a lot of rethinking. But I don’t think you should underestimate the impact, you’ve made in schools. It’s somehow we’ve got to channel that more. I think you and many of your colleagues, when you go in, it does affect the children. But the problem is they are sympathetic for you. They don’t see it-
[Anita] Exactly!
I think they don’t necessarily see it as part of a conundrum.
Of course, not! Why should they? They’re children.
And I think at our peril, we’ve got to take these lessons seriously. Because it’s not just prejudice against Jews, it’s prejudice against anyone who’s different. That’s where I think we can have parallels. Because hate and scapegoating, but I think to lump them all together as you said is absolutely extraordinary. Before we open it to questions, 'cause I think there’s already about a hundred of them, I can see on the chat line, I’ll choose , is there anything else that you really want to talk about? We’ve got a big audience, Anita. I’ve just seen, there are 2,300 machines listening in today and-
[Anita] Okay, then, go on.
No, is there anything else that you really want to say to this group? And this group is worldwide. This is what’s so interesting, it’s international. We’ve got people in America, Israel, all over place.
Okay, fine, fine, fine.
Is there anything else that you want to say really? Because you have done so much. And for me, you’ve always been, since I got to know you well, you are my inspiration in many ways. You know that. You hate compliments, but you’ve got one now. I know your answer.
[Anita] Okay.
But you know that. And I think that’s true for many people that you’ve got this indomitable spirit. You never give up. Is that part of the reason you think that you made it through so many different terrible things? You seemed-
I don’t know, I can’t tell you. I mean, I don’t know. I mean, if somebody called me what they love to do the Germans, a , a dirty whatever, I never felt that she was addressing me.
[Trudy] Hmm.
[Anita] Yeah, .
Yeah, could it be also that you had a great, your family and-
[Anita] Yes.
Although-
I think I have a lot to thank my father for.
Your father was obviously an extraordinary character. I mean, weren’t you reading Don Carlos, just before he was deported? I mean, what an extraordinary man he must have been that even to the end, he believed in the enlightenment. And I guess we’ve got to, haven’t we? We have to, come on, for the sake of your, Anita’s got three grandchildren and the eldest granddaughter is Alma, the beautiful Alma. So I’m going to open it up for questions, because I’m going to go on. I’m afraid.
Q&A and Comments:
This is from Bernice, she’s saying, “The synagogue in Toronto had in its possession a record of the Shabbat service that was held when Bergen-Belsen was liberated. Her husband was at the
service, having survived the death march. He was 16 years old.” Q: Michael is asking, “What happened to your sister?” A: Well, of course, Renate, do you want to speak a little about what happened to Renate?
Well, unfortunately, she died last month.
[Trudy] Yeah.
What happened to Renate? Well, she was married to a Frenchman, divorced him, married a second time, Klaus Harpprecht, who was a German, not Jewish. They went to America, did a lot for television, finished up in the south of France and Yeah.
Yeah. She had a big life.
She died there. That’s terrible, because we couldn’t go to the funeral or anything like that.
Yeah, that was cruel. That was so terrible.
Q: This is Elizabeth, she said, “60 years ago, I had the good fortune to turn the pages for a pianist, accompanying the eminent violinist Ernst Wallfisch at a studio broadcast in Johannesburg. Would this be a relative, Ernst Wallfisch?”
A: He was not a violinist, he was a viola player.
[Trudy] Right.
They are vaguely related. I know, we got together, the Wallfisches. There was Ernst Wallfisch. He was a fantastic viola player.
[Trudy] Yeah.
And somehow, I think they found that they had some relative in common. But I mean, it was very sad. He just came back from the doctor, who told him that his health was hundred percent, came home and dropped dead.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
I mean, lucky for him. I mean, beautiful way to go. But yeah, he was a lovely man and a wonderful musician.
Aye, this is from Mayra, “My mother was 18 in Berlin at the time of Kristallnacht,” “Also from,”
she said, “An assimilated, cultured family.”
Q: And this is from Carly Newman, “I just want to say a quick hello and remember our mutual friend and neighbour, the pianist, Alice Sommer. Perhaps you could tell people about Alice, who at the age of 110 was the oldest survivor.” She was a great friend of yours, wasn’t she?
A: She was a great friend of mine. I visited her every Saturday like clockwork. We used to play Scrabble for the beauty of the language rather than, we didn’t even count, I mean, it was all very funny. And well, the extraordinary thing about her, is she was almost an insane optimist. I mean, her faith was so terrible, because she actually lost her son, her one and only son whom she loved dearly. And she had a way of interpreting even that as “I’m so glad he doesn’t have to experience the pains of old age.” I mean, she was a woman, who could always see something positive in something. She was extraordinary. I absolutely loved her. Yes.
Q: Yeah. Oh, that’s lovely. And Linda Gross wants to know, “I would be most grateful to know why you are against the Holocaust memorial planned in Westminster, which of course your son, Raphael Wallfisch is very involved in that campaign?”
A: Well, I mean, have you looked a bit closer to the impossible actually place where they want it? The danger of flooding, the lack of accessibility, I mean, it is just unbelievable that nobody went into that. Apart from the ruination of a whole beautiful park. And it’s in front of a memorial to the slavery. I mean, it was at the wrong place. It’s fine if they want it, they can have it. But it is in the wrong place for reasons that they should have gone into. Especially if there is a flood, which there is a flood danger there, there is absolutely no hope for anybody. Everything speaks against it.
But also-
Yeah, but I mean, there also, I think the fact that there is a very extraordinary and fantastic exhibition at the Imperial War Museum-
[Trudy] Mm-hmm .
I think it was a complete lack of communication between people.
[Trudy] Hmm.
Well, I’m dedicated-
I think the way they’ve planning out a room on anti-Semitism about the size of our living rooms, I think it’s, anyway, we won’t talk too much about it, 'cause we will go on.
Q: This is from Tony, this is a very interesting question, “Over time, what made Germans believe
in hierarchy so much? I consider this a fundamental question as it led to the social acceptance of tyranny.”
A: Well, Germans are a bit peculiar in that way. Hierarchy is very, very important. If somebody of a higher position says something, even if you think it’s not right, but it must be right. Yeah. There’s a very interesting letter in the unbelievable book, “Those Were The Days”, which are the letters from people, who murdered people by the dozen. And I was asked to say something on the BBC about it and just open it at random and I saw a letter from somebody who wrote to his family, “Dear , dear so and so, I hope the children are no longer wetting their bed and don’t put their elbows on the table, because when they eat, because we, Germans are the example now of everything that’s good,” et cetera, et cetera. Then he goes on saying, “What we are doing here,” murdering people, “Makes me think a little bit. But since Hitler said it, it must be right.”
[Trudy] Hmm.
[Anita] And what do you do with people like that?
Oh! We should recommend that book, “Those Were The Days”. It’s absolutely extraordinary. And it poses so many questions.
Q: Now this is Vivian , she’s saying, “Please, Anita, can you tell us how you found those two letters?” It’s all, because it looks so-
A: I can tell you what I can tell you. They were found in New Zealand, obviously by a family, who was somehow connected, who had relatives in Breslau, who somehow had connected some connection with us. It’s a bit of a mystery. And also the mystery is that these letters, when they came into my possession, are typed. But I certainly didn’t type them.
[Trudy] Hmm.
So somebody must have the handwriting. I haven’t been eager to search it.
You sent them, didn’t you to a family friend, those letters?
[Anita] Huh?
Those letters, they were sent to a family friend, weren’t they when you were in prison, those letters? Is that right?
Yeah! These letters were sent to a certain Mr., who was living in Breslau, who was Jewish, but married to an Arian and obviously was able to still live there. And this particular family, must have been fantastically helpful to us kids in prison.
[Trudy] Mm-hmm .
'Cause I thanked them and I thanked all sorts of people that I can’t even remember anymore. They must have brought us food or whatever. It’s so long ago, you know? Yeah, carry on.
But also Anita, it shows you there’s good and bad in every people. Yeah?
[Anita] Of course.
Q: Hmm. Now this is a question from Dale, “Who provided the instruments for the musicians at Auschwitz and who did you perform for?”
A: [Anita] Who did we what?
Who did you actually perform for? That’s what you are being asked.
It wasn’t a matter of providing. You must now imagine a situation that deportations are now in full operation, yes? Now what would you do? Somebody comes to your house and says, “I’ll give you one hour and then I collect you and I will send you to the east to be resettled.” That was a great thing, resettled. One still bamboozled oneself who was resettled. So what is your natural reaction? You get your best clothes, probably three lots on top of each other, everything that is important to you to take to your resettlement, including if you happen to play an instrument, your instrument. And all this stuff arrives in Auschwitz-Birkenau and comes into a great big warehouse called Kanada. So Auschwitz was one of the richest places you can imagine in the whole of Europe. That’s how we had the instruments. Somebody, a cellist arrived there who went up in smoke, but they kept the cello and that’s the cello I played on.
Hmm. And the other part of the question, who did you play for?
“Who did you play for?” They must also imagine there was in every camp, which I will learn that later, was a band, yes? In Birkenau, which was only for women, there was no band. And I think Mrs. Mandl, who was the boss in Birkenau, must have had a sort of feeling, “They all have music here, why don’t we have music?” And it was her idea together with another of the Germans, who thought, “Well, I think we could also get a band together.” And then they started looking for people who could play. It was a matter of pride. “You all have a band, I really want a band as well.”
That’s sounds so extraordinary.
And we played for, I’ll tell you who we played for. Every morning we had to march out and sit at the gate and play marches, because Auschwitz or Birkenau was surrounded by factories like and all the factories where the prisoners worked. So we sat there for about an hour and played marches for the prisoners to walk out, nice, left, right, left, right to their workplace. And in the
evening, then we went back to our block and we started learning pieces. And in the evening, we did the same thing for the return journey. So that was our job.
[Trudy] Hmm.
And on Sundays, we gave sort of concerts for entertainment of the camp, anywhere, somewhere in the camp, yeah.
Q: This is from Crystal, “Hello, Anita, my mother knew Alma’s father in England. She was also in a youth group with your sister Renate in Breslau. My mother’s family, the Bials were friends with Rose and had many musical evenings at their house in England. Can you tell me how Alma died? I’ve heard several different versions. She had many fond memories of Alma’s father.”
A: Yeah, I still, I must be the last person, who actually met Alma’s father, but that’s another story.
[Trudy] Hmm.
Alma’s death was completely mysterious. I’ll tell you what happened. In the camp in Auschwitz, there were also a tremendous hierarchy and if you are a , you know you are aristocracy. Alma was invited to a birthday party by another high-ranking person, not quite of Alma’s background. And there, I don’t know what they drank, something awful we assume. Then Alma came back and I remember to the day, we were waiting, we were sitting there waiting for Alma to come out of her little . And she felt absolutely terrible. She was sick and she couldn’t do anything. And she was carted off to the Revere, which was a sort of hospital where they tried to ascertain what actually was the cause of her death, whether she was poisoned or whether she had, what was the other possibility? But it was never, if you have my book, there is a whole chapter about a friend of Alma’s, a doctor, who knew more about her illness than anybody ever knew. But she finally died. It’s a mystery to the day. But the Germans were so concerned about Alma, they gave her medical attention. I mean, we’re in Auschwitz where people died. She had medical attention, she had a, what’s it called, a spine, tried to take fluid out of her spine, whether it was meningitis or poison, mystery to the day.
Q: Wow. This is from Sarah Meron. She’s talking about the person, who got your husband to Palestine, “Was it Emil Hauser?” She’s asking.
A: [Anita] Yeah, Emil.
[Trudy] Yes?
Yes!
Now Sarah’s a very, very good historian. So maybe you can go further on that. Please get in touch, Sarah, if you can.
And this is from Abigail Hirsch, “Do you recall Hazzan Moshele Kraus, who was liberated from Bergen-Belsen? He was recruited to sing German opera for Commandant Kramer. He’s written a book about his life, 'Moshele Kraus, How My Singing Saved My Life’. I’m working on developing a film on his life. I would love to be in touch with you.” That’s from Abigail Hirsch.
Q: This is from Marlene, “What year did they get the talented Jewish children to Palestine? Also please tell me-”
A: I’m not absolutely sure, but it must have been ‘38, '39.
Yes, because if it’s Austria, it’s got to be after '38, hasn’t it?
[Anita] Yeah.
Q: Yeah. There’s a lot of, oh, this is a lovely one from David, “What crime did you commit to get you into prison?”
A: To get me into prison?
[Trudy] Yeah.
My crimes were forgery-
[Trudy] Yeah.
Helping the enemy and attempt escape, these were the three crimes, yeah.
Right, right. And this is from Tony, “I would like Anita to know that my father, was in the Royal Artillery Operation Market Garden, which stumbled into Belsen. He told me how emaciated the victims were and how they suffered in eating their first rich food. He also described how some of his regiment gave instant justice to the brutal guards, which were pointed out by ex-inmates.” So that’s from the son of someone who was in the liberation.
Now this is from Myra, who’s saying, “I love your spirit, eloquence and sense of humour. You remind me of my mother,” she says, “Who died several years ago, would’ve been a hundred on Wednesday.” And she and her mother immigrated from Berlin in '39, but they couldn’t bring the grandmother, who perished at Auschwitz. Ah! So many.
Oh, this is again, people are fascinated that you were a criminal. Yes, Linda, it’s been answered.
Yes, Renate did saved aside and survive the camp as Anita mentioned tragically, she died a few weeks ago.
Q: Anita, this is a question, “How does one teach children the Holocaust was unique?” A: Difficult. Ask Trudy. She is better at that. - We will give some sessions-
Listen, it wasn’t, excuse me, it wasn’t that unique. It was just an even better version of killing Jews. It’s all happened before. I mean, what happened in Russia? Only we’re in the 20th century, they had more sophisticated ways of getting rid of us.
I think it’s the recycling actually and it for me-
Yeah, I know that is the one thing where I think there is a difference between the various horrible killings that youth were actually recycled. Every bit was used. Soap was made out of us, lampshades, whatever. Yeah.
[Trudy] You haven’t-
Material, we were recycled. I mean, for God’s sakes, that has never happened before.
Q: Right. This is a big conference at another time, Anita. This is from Stuart Rose, “Ann, you look and sound so wonderful. How do you manage to stay sane?”
A: I smoke and I try to look at the sun if it’s coming out and hope for the best. What can you do?
And also you love good food. You love, yeah, you are an inspiration. I’m not going to say that again. You’ll be cross.
I will be.
I know you’ll be cross. This is from Abigail Hirsch. She’s agreed with you about Jewish education. “Your book is available on Amazon. Is it available in England?”
I don’t know.
loved what you just said, “You don’t have to like us, but don’t murder us.” This is from Hillary, “I appreciate what you say about teaching the children about the Holocaust. I’m pondering when to tell my grandchildren. The older one is 11, but they’d be horrified. They have such a better view of human nature at the moment. It’s terrible to have to disillusion them.”
Yeah, I agree.
Yeah and this is from Allison, saying her father lived in Breslau. Shirley, “You are a remarkable woman.” Margie likes your idea of a garden of remembrance.
Q: Ah, here you go, “Did the orchestra ever play works by you know who I’m going to talk about, Wagner?
A: No. Oh, that’s nothing, you can’t imagine what that orchestra consisted of. You can’t even call it an orchestra. We were perhaps six violins, several mandolins, a flute. Excuse me. I can’t talk to you now. Ring me later. I mean, most ridiculous collection of instruments. I mean, yeah, I forgot the question now.
- "Anita, you are an inspiration. Your humility is to be admired.” Right.
Oh! And this is from Yolanda, this is interesting, “I was born in Egypt and knew nothing about the Holocaust. And one day, I was touring Rome in 1960 and happened to hear about it. How and why did the Egyptian government keep that story for so long from its citizens?” That’s an interesting area, Yolanda, which we will be covering in Lockdown University.
Q: This is from Alice, “Are you related to my old piano teacher, Lasker? She had a twin sister.”
A: Well, yes. I finally have somebody ask me that only the other day. I met Lasker at Augener’s in London years ago. So there were then two Laskers. And we talked to each other and we could not find, probably we are related, but we couldn’t instantly find one. But I knew who she was, yes.
And somebody else has mentioned, again, “The person who saved your husband,” saying that we’ve got to-
[Anita] Hauser.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, well, that’s an interesting story.
Q: This is from Roberta, “How wonderful to come across you again. We met many years ago with my husband Peter Biddles, also remember- yes?
A: Yes, carry on.
- The gardens are a super idea. Yes, bring it on.”
Q: This is from Janice, “What is your favourite cello music?” A: Unanswerable question. - Okay. And this is from Claudia, “Anita’s brilliant book is available and she sent the link.” All right! So it’s-
There’s a business sense, obviously.
Yeah, that’s my daughter, I think.
Let me just tell you something. I was adjudicating a prize some days ago and one of the prizes, my son bought my book along. And when I had a look at it, it looked like a rogue print. The colour was wrong. I think there are rogue prints of my book now. So be very careful.
Okay, maybe-
It has to be a dark red colour in that-
Q: Maybe, we can think about. This is from Martin, “Would you say you believe in God?” And then she says, “Such an honour to hear you.”
A: You know I was asked that question before. Unfortunately, I can’t answer it in English, but my reply was, this is Faust answering Gretchen when she asked him, “Do you believe in God?” Who can say you believe, who can say you don’t believe? Look at the world, et cetera. Well, look up if you’ve got a great volume at home, look up what Faust said to Gretchen when she asked him, “Do you believe in God?” I don’t believe in an old man sitting up there and looking that everything is okay. Because if there was, he is doing a lousy job.
Q: Oh and Lydia wants to know a little bit about your children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren.
A: Well, believe it or not, they’re all musicians.
Except one, who’s a psychotherapist. Yes.
No, that is, yeah, my daughter’s a psychotherapist. The rest I think are all musicians, yes.
[Trudy] Yeah.
One of them used to be a musician and is now God knows what, finding his way. Yes, I mean it’s a typical in a family, but most of them are musicians.
One of the most extraordinary highlights of my life, I was interviewing Anita at the German embassy in front of an audience of diplomats, her son Raphael was playing is for Kristallnacht and her grandson Simon, who has a wonderful voice then sang the Kaddish. And it’s an audience of diplomats at the German embassy and it was absolutely extraordinary, the impact.
[Anita] Mm-hmm .
It does make, this is from Fiona Amitai, “My in-laws, the Amitais, based in Freiberg, have spoken so fondly of you for many years. Thank you in admiration.”
Q: Oh, yes, this is from John Alexander, “Would Anita like to explain how Hanns Alexander got her out of Belsen?”
A: Hanns Alexander was an absolutely lovely man. I mean, I really miss him and his wife. He was a real, what’s called a. He started off like all Jewish people in the lowest rank of whatever you call them, the pioneer. And then they needed people who can speak German and he became a captain and he appeared in Belsen. It was a very moment, because I was trying to get out of Belsen. There was all sorts of schemes, because I had to get to Brussels, yes. And it was getting more and more impossible. And we were getting very, very depressed, my sister and I, because another possibility had fallen through. So in our sad mood, we went to the officers’ club that night and there, I was asked to dance with somebody, who happened to be Alexander. I think he must have known what’s going on. And as we were dancing, he said, “I hear you want to get to Brussels?”
I said, “Yes.” “Well, I’m going there tomorrow. I can take you.” I said, “Huh? But we haven’t got.” “That’s your problem.” The typical Hanns answer. He said, “I’ll collect you tomorrow morning at eight o'clock.” “Fantastic!” So I went back to my sister, I said, “Look, there’s a possibility to get to Brussels. This guy has just offered us a lift. We haven’t got any papers, nothing, what shall we do?” Well, my sister and I, we were both working at the office of the British Army. We had access to get to a typewriter and there, I type that ridiculous, this is in my book now, a sort of permit that Anita and Renate Lasker are travelling in the custody of Captain Alexander, have to report , mistakes, English mistakes, writing, unbelievable. So they didn’t look very official. So we thought we better get a stamp. Something has to be look little bit official. Somehow or other, we got somebody who must have been half drunk to give a stamp.
Well, you can swipe my book. This was our papers. Anyway, next day come, we were very excited, we picked our few little things together, waited for Hanns Alexander, who didn’t appear. I was like “Oh my God! That whole thing was a dream.” Well, he turned up eventually at about lunchtime, said, “Terribly sorry, but I got very drunk and I overslept but it’s okay.” Well, it was lucky that that happened, because we then drove off in a Mercedes, fantastic, out of Belsen to the Dutch border. Dutch border was the West Border. Well, the fact that he was so late, made it so that the Dutch border was only manned by one man, a corporal or something. So he stopped us, of course. I take out my ridiculous paper. He looked at it and said, “I’m sorry, you’ll have to
come in into the little hut,” whatever it was. So their Hanns came into it, Hanns was a captain and he was a corporal and he took the paper out of his hand. He said, “What’s wrong with that?” He’d never seen it before, you know? And he said, “Well, give me HQ straight away.” He was now in command. So he dialled headquarters and somebody answered the phone there and he screamed down and said, “How dare you hold me up and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” Apologies and we were through, complete bluff from beginning to end. And we drove away to the, we were in Holland. That’s right. And I remember we stopped at a little restaurant and I said to Hanns, “I’m terribly sorry, I printed that paper.”
He said, “Listen, I’ve got completely different plans for you anyway. So I forget the paper, it’s okay.” Hanns was tremendous, really. On we went through then the Dutch border, no problem. We went through. But now we had a problem, because we were, by that time, it was midnight. So what do we do? Hanns said, “Listen, I’ve got an old aunt or somebody here. We will ring her bell and she’ll put you up for the night. It’ll just be all right.” Can you imagine? In 1945, the bell rings in the days of the Gustapo weren’t that far away. So a poor lady opens the door, sees Hanns Alexander with three girls, we were three girls, who said, “Could you put these people up for the night? Here we’re coming from Belsen.” So you can imagine this poor lady thought Belsen, typhus, lice, dirt. She was horrified, but she couldn’t say no. So she let us in. She didn’t let us go to the bathroom. I remember only the loo where we could just about wash our hands. She removed all the cushions from the sitting room.
I knew what she was thinking about, poor lady. I mean, we didn’t have any lice anymore and we didn’t have any typhus anymore. But she had to put up with us. And we stayed the night in that. Now, unfortunately, one of the Alexander clan wrote a book where he described our arrival at this lady. So he’s terribly wrong that I’m very angry with him. You probably know who I’m talking about. He said, “For the first time, Anita could sleep in white sheets.” We were three people. So in the middle of the night, somebody has three beds and three sets of white sheets. I mean, I deplore the disrespect that some people have of the tales that I tell. If I say it, that was it. Anyway, if he’s listening, you know what I’m talking about. Anyhow, Hanns then disappeared and that was that. But later, he got me back to Belsen and no, before that, that I was a witness at the trial. Of course that was before that, yes.
Hmm.
So Hanns was a very active, very good man. I loved him.
That must have been strange, being a witness at the Belsen trial.
Yeah, it was nice, you know?
[Trudy] Hmm.
On the other side.
Yeah.
[Anita] It’s better on the other side.
It must have been extraordinary. There’s a question here.
Q: This is from Steven Sinclair, “Did you ever meet my favourite chess player, Emanuel Lasker?”
A: Emanuel? No.
[Trudy] Yes? No, right.
[Anita] Emmanuel Edward?
No, he’s asking about Emmanuel Lasker.
No, Emmanuel Lasker, no. Emanuel Lasker was a world master. No, I never met him. I’ve got a nice picture of him, playing a game with Edward Lasker. Edward Lasker was a grandmaster of America. But Emanuel Lasker, well, I’m trying to play chess now and this is quite pathetic really. I have to do something about it. We are related somehow.
[Trudy] Mm-hmm .
We all come from the town of Lutsk. You know that Jews didn’t have names, weren’t allowed to have names. They were named after the towns that they lived in. There’s a little town called Lutsk. And yeah, the people, the Jewish people, who lived there were the Laskers.
Q: There’s a nice question here, “Any chance your story will be made into a movie? We need more radical, strong women’s lives and experiences.” There you are. Maybe there’s some filmmakers on. I know your answer to that.
A: [Anita] I don’t-
[Trudy] I know.
I’ve been offered that before. I don’t want a movie.
Q: But this is from Michelle, “Do you speak to Angela Merkel?” A: Yes. We have a nice correspondence.
Q: Yeah. And Robin’s asking if you’re still playing the cello? A: [Anita] No. - With family members. No, of course not, yeah.
Q: “Is there any music you found difficult to play in your later career, because of its connection to Belsen or Auschwitz?”
A: No. It’s a short answer. This is another world.
It’s another world. Yeah, as I said, Anita, if you are in agreement, I think your musical life has been such a rich one, that that would be a separate session. You said to me that music is beyond politics, it’s beyond-
Of course it is, but I mean-
It’s different. You’ve got to go beyond it, yeah.
But if I was the sort of person that if she hears a piece that was played then and then that I have a nervous breakdown, I don’t think I would’ve reached the age of 95. What’s it got to do with it?
Hmm, yeah. It’s that strength, madam.
Q: This is from Marian, “Did you know Reverend Hardman, who was the chaplain in the army, which liberated Bergen-Belsen? He was my rabbi, growing up. Did you meet him?”
A: [Anita] Who?
Reverend Hardman. He was-
[Anita] Yes, yes, I did. Of course I did. Yes.
Q: Yeah. And this is from Eric, “Did you feel any anti-Semitism on the part of the soldiers, who liberated Belsen?” That’s a strange question. Hmm.
A: No, it isn’t really. Because I haven’t personally.
Yeah-
But I do know from other people that there have been remarks to make that is already enough of these sob stories and yeah.
Yeah.
[Anita] Anti-Semitism is a poison.
It’s “The Longest Hatred”, Robert Wistrich.
[Anita] Yeah.
Q: This is from Lydia London, you’re going to get cross, “Did you see the film of ‘The Musicians of Auschwitz’ to be ‘Playing for Time’?” Boy, do you want to comment, Anita?
A: Yeah, well, terrible.
[Trudy] All right.
I mean, I’m still fighting against it. Absolute rubbish!
Q: This is from John Alexander, “Your book is marvellous. Have you recorded your story on video for future generations? You are a hologram.”
A: Yeah, yeah. There’s enough already of me.
Q: - Hmm. And this is from Ruth, “Did you know one of the singers, my uncle?” He was in the camp-
A: [Anita] Taube?
T-A-U-B-E, Taub, Taube.
[Anita] But Taube was a very famous singer.
Yeah, but this is Bendit Taub. This is without an “a”, Taub.
Taube, no, I didn’t know.
Hmm. Okay, I think that’s about it, Anita. What can I say? Can I, actually, before we go on to the thanks, Wendy, I’d just like to reiterate what you said. Anita, this was a last night where people did behave rather badly. And I just want to reiterate my huge support for Judy, for Patrick and I totally endorse what Wendy said. Because this is a free channel, very well and beautifully put together with by my other favourite woman, Wendy. And I really feel that it, particularly when we have people like Anita, it’s a privilege, it’s a gift. So and as Wendy said, I know we’re going through bad times, but let’s behave with dignity. And I’m going to give my own thanks to Anita.
You are amazing. Oh, I’m not going to say anymore. Wendy, over to you.
Absolutely, Anita. I absolutely endorse exactly what Trudy says. You’re absolutely remarkable, amazing. It was a great privilege for all of us to listen to you today. And on behalf of the entire, our almost 12,000 participants now, I really just wanted to say thank you very, very much for sharing your astounding story with us.
My pleasure.
[Wendy] Thank you.
[Trudy] Anita-
[Wendy] Bless you.
Thank you so much, again.
And Trudy, I’d like to just say thank you for saying that what you said and I’d just like to say on behalf of Judy, also for all the letters and the notes of support that she received, she really isn’t going to be able to say thank you to everybody, because there is a big workload. But I just say thanks to everybody and-
Thank you. Thank you, Wendy.
[Wendy] Thank you.
God bless everyone.
Thanks, Trudy, thanks, Anita. Thank you everybody for joining us today. Enjoy the rest of your day and the evening. Thanks, Anita. Bye-bye!
Bye!
I’m looking forward to meeting you, Anita when I come to London.
So do I.
And that hopefully will be very, very soon.
So do I.
[Wendy] Yeah, thank you. Bye-bye everyone.
Bye!