Trudy Gold
Zionism and the Holocaust, Part 3
Trudy Gold - Zionism and the Holocaust, Part 3 and Haj Amin El Husseini
- Morning Trude, morning Judi.
Good morning.
Good morning.
[Wendy] The weather looks good, yes?
Weather it’s still a tiny bit chilly, but the weather is beautiful, it’ll warm up I’m sure, it’s still here.
Makes everyone feel a little bit better, doesn’t it?
Absolutely, I’m sorry that I missed yesterday, but I did catch up last night.
I’m taking your advice, I’m going slower.
Oh, good, good. And are you feeling better about what you’re doing, because I know this is a very dark subject for you, Very difficult.
I did a job on myself yesterday, Wendy, I did, I gave myself a long talking to, and then I popped round to see Anita Laskaval who also gave me a talking to, and when she does, that’s formidable.
Well, a couple participants have, you know, received emails saying that we are, you know, that sometimes the lecturers are frivolous, but really, you know, I think humour deflects the anxiety. It’s the defence mechanism sometimes.
It’s dealing with the dark side of the moon. Yeah.
Yes, yes.
And the other thing that I wanted to say to people who had, you know, wasn’t Elisha Wiesel amazing?
Oh, he was unbelievable. What an incredible man that he is. Not only was his father a legend, but I think he had become a legend too. He’s got it,, whatever it is, he’s got leadership quality, he’s got a touch of greatness, hasn’t he?
He has a soul.
Yeah, it was privileged to listen to him I thought.
It was.
And it gives you a bit of hope. I loved his optimism, Wendy.
Absolutely. Focusing on-
And we needed it. Yeah, we needed a touch of that, didn’t we?
And you know, I spoke to Maryanne yesterday and we’ll have her on lockdown soon too, so that’ll be great.
Oh, that is amazing. Oh, that’s wonderful. So tell me when you are ready for me to start?
Yeah, okay, it’s two minutes past the hour so over to you.
All right.
Thank you very much, Wendy.
Morning to everybody and yes, another week.
Yeah.
Almost may.
Yeah.
Very good.
Visuals are displayed throughout this presentation.
- Okay Wendy. Right, well good morning, good afternoon, everybody. And I’m continuing with looking at Zionism and its responses during the Lasochow. And having discussed it with my colleagues and Wendy, I’ve realised I am going a little too fast from the sort of questions I’m getting. So what I’m doing today is I’m going to look at Lord Moyne and I certainly will begin the story of Haj Amin El Husseini. But what’s going to happen is that I’m not going to look at Slovakia this week, I’m going to be continuing with this. Next week I’ll be looking at Hungary, but we will look at Slovakia. I’m sort of rethinking how I’m doing this because what I’m trying to do, of course, is to create a mosaic. So just a brief recap. Of course, what we saw in Palestine was if you like Jewish powerlessness.
The British have closed more or less closed the doors, the Nazis are looking for a Irgun Rhine Reich, there is collaboration in many, many countries and as a response to this powerlessness, we saw an incredible amount of different responses. If you remember in 1939 when war broke out, the Haganah and the Irgun decided to join the British Army. The British wouldn’t let them in unless there was parity with the Arabs, and of course, Arabs didn’t join the British Army. And it wasn’t really until 1943 that certain Jews were asked to perform special ops. There’d been a few earlier, and of course I talked about the extraordinary David Ratzel yesterday, and of course about Moshe Dayan. But in the main, it’s not until ‘43 that parachutists are allowed to join the British army. They are recruited by special ops, they train in Egypt, and in fact 250 Jewish parachuters were parachuted mainly into Yugoslavia or in countries where they knew the language to help with looking after Allied soldiers who were in hiding. Of course, they had an agenda from the Jewish Agency, which was to help Jews wherever they could, and it included the incredible Hannah Szenes who smuggled herself into Hungary, tragically was captured by the Arrow Cross and murdered.
But I’m going to be talking about her when we talk about Hungary. And it wasn’t actually until, would you believe August '44, that the British finally consent to the creation of a Jewish brigade? There is a telegram from Winston Churchill to Roosevelt. He says this, and remember this is August '44 when half of Hungarian Jewry have already been deported and then the deportations have stopped for a period. And it’s an open season now. It’s in the news, people know about it. Whether they believe it is another issue that I think we will talk about later on. And this is what Churchill wrote. “The Jews of all races have a right to strike at the Germans "as a recognisable body.” And in fact, Roosevelt wrote back and said, “Yes.” So the Jewish brigade is established. 5,000 Palestinian Jews join it and what makes it different is it flies under a Jewish flag, it flies under a Zionist flag. Now, the “New York Times” dismiss it as a token and said too little, too late.
And if you think about “The Guardian” today and its coverage of the Middle East, this might surprise you because the “Manchester Guardian” at this period was the most sympathetic to Palestine and Jewish causes. And this is what the reporter wrote, “The announcement the Jewish brigade "will fight with the British Army is welcome "if five years too late. "One regrets that the government had been so slow "to seize the opportunity.” And what happened to the brigade was in October '44, they were shipped to it to Italy under a Jewish commander, a man called Ernest Benjamin, his dates are 1900 to 1969. He had been born in Canada but had moved to England when he was 10 years old with his parents and he went into the regular army. By 1930 he’s a captain, by 1939 he’s a major, he’s mentioned in dispatches. He was actually on the staff at the Middle East Command in Egypt. And when he’s appointed commanding officer of the Jewish brigade. He stayed with them when they are disbanded, he returns to the Army, and he retires in England with the rank of Brigadier General, he was awarded the CBE.
So interesting man. A British soldier in Britain to the end and one wonders what went through his head in those strange years '45 to '48 when virtually there’s going to be civil war between the Zionists and Palestine, and the British government. But we are taught more about that later on. Anyway, a lovely little incident for you, those of you who come from South Africa. Many of the South African pilots who were fighting with the British were in fact Jewish. And when the Jewish brigade was involved in Italy, they actually went into the formation of a star of David as a tribute to the Jewish brigade. They were praised as a great fighting force by the commander of the 10th core. They fought mainly with the eighth army, and evidently this commander said, “You know, with the proper training, "they really could be formidable soldiers.” After the war, there are a lot of indications that whenever they captured SS officers, they executed them. Now, July '45, they moved to Belgium and Holland. The casualties, 83 of them were killed. You remember, there’s 5,000. 200 of them were seriously wounded. And at the end of the war, many of them stayed behind in Europe.
They joined a group called Nakam Avengers, led by an extraordinary man called Abba Kovner. I’m going to run a whole session on this. And they were officially disbanded in 1946. They also began to be involved in something called Bericha which was the movement to get Jews out of Europe, but there’s going to be a lot of time spent on these subjects. But I just thought it was important that you know that in the end the British did allow a Jewish fighting force. They’d always been frightened because they knew that in the end that force would go against them, and in many ways it was correct. And obviously I had a very interesting email from a friend of mine who is Joan, who is actually, I hope listening today, and she said, “We are walking on eggshells now.” Because I know that the events I’m talking about are so relevant to so many of your families, and the question is, what side would anyone have taken? Would it have been Haganah? Would it have been Irgun?
Would it have been Stern? Would it have been the Weitzman idea? Ben-Gurion, Begin, he’s going to be in Palestine by 1942. Even Yitzhak Shamir. This is where the great divisions which still renders asunder happen. And now, of course, in many ways, the events which really crystallised it all is the assassination of Lord Moyne. And I want to talk, can we see his picture? Yes, we can can’t we. There’s Lord Moyne. Lord Moyne and his dates are March, 1880 to the 6th of November, 1944. He was a very important figure in Britain and in British society. He came from the Guinness family. He was born Walter Guinness, in Dublin. He was the third son of the first Earl of Ivy. He had the traditional education of an aristocrat. He went to Eaton. He was incredibly popular at Eaton. He was the head of the pop society. Now I, in my very strange career, I taught at Eaton for five years, believe it or not, two hours a week for five years. I taught different sets of boys aged 18 modern Jewish history. And I had some chaps in my group who were in pop.
You wore a special waistcoat and if you were in the pop society, and he was also head of boats, which meant he was one of the most popular characters at Eaton. He was, if you like, you know, one of those rarefied groups of incredibly privileged English aristocrats. He married when he was 23 years old. He married Evelyn who was a daughter of the Earl of Buchan. They had three children. Those of you who loved the byways of history, this will interest you. Their eldest son, Brian, his dates are 1905 to 1992. He married a woman called Diana Mitford, a very beautiful Faye Society girl who of course was one of the daughters of Lord Redesdale She later divorced him and of course married Oswald Mosley He decided on a military career, he’s going to have lots of careers in the military, in charity, and in business. He was commissioned again for the South Africans. He was in the second Boer war and according to other of his officers, he had a devil may care attitude. He would lead lightning raids on the Afrikaner positions, he was very much decorated.
In World War I he was in Gallipoli, Egypt, Passchendaele. He was awarded the Distinguished Service medal. So look, he’s a good looking British hero. He goes into politics way back in 1907, he joins the London Council, the the LCC. And then, again in 1907, he stands for the Conservative Party, Bury St. Edmunds and he’s going to be their MP up until 1931. Though he and Churchill in their young days were political opponents, After 1924 they worked closely together, and it’s important to know they were also related by marriage. He was related to Clementine Hozier who became Winston’s wife and they were very close. They would go on holidays together. He was mad about yachting, he had these extraordinarily luxurious yachts. He was a very, very wealthy aristocrat. And quite often Churchill and Clementine were guests. Remember Churchill spent a lot of time in the political wilderness before he came back into his own in the Second World War and he and Clementine were particularly close. In politics he had various posts, he was the Minister for Agriculture.
In 1932, he was created Baron Moyne and he’s then in the House of Lords. He had a very interesting business career. He was one of the directors of the Guinness, it’s one of the biggest brewing companies in the world, remember and it had been established by his great-great-grandfather. Let’s face it, he made his money in trade, that’s something that the English aristos were always very strange about. He also established British Pacific properties in Vancouver. He commissioned the Lion Gate Bridge, which this huge bridge which was opened by George VI. Of course, he was close to the British Royal family. He was a trustee of both the Guinness and the Ivy Trusts. Now, those of you, and I mentioned this yesterday, those of you who love Hamstead, Ken Woodhouse was his gift to the British people. And not only was he a keen yachtsman, he was also an adventurer.
On one of his travels, he brought back the first living Komodo dragon back to England. And he visited Japan, China. He and Churchill belonged to a special little group called The Other Club, which had been founded by Churchill. And Moyne was present with Churchill on the 29th of September 1938 when in fact, of course, that terrible phrase was issued by, if you think about it, Neville Chamberlain comes back from Munich saying, “I bring you back peace, "but peace with honour.” And Churchill and Moyne, Churchill was so angry about that. Anyway, his political career went on. In 1932, remember he’s a very good businessman. He’s in Kenya, this is the British empire of its height. He was overseeing finances. In '33 he chaired a committee dealing with slum clearance. He was popular, this is one of the points I’m tr trying to get over. He was an aristocrat, yes, but with the notion of British aristocracy of service. He’s involved in slum clearance, he’s involved in all sorts of charities to help the poor. He was also involved in the commission on the British film industry, and he was the chairman of the West Indies Royal Commission. So he’s a very busy active man.
And when World War II broke out, it was he who’d led the campaign for the internment of Diana Mosley as a Nazi traitor. September 1939, we find him chairing the Polish Relief Fund and he gave his London home, 11 Grosvenor place, over to Polish officers. He had many other homes, but the point was the gallant Poles should have a place in London. On the 8th of February, 1941, he’s made the Secretary of State for the colonies. And between August '42 and January '44, he is the Deputy Resident Minister of State in Cairo. And from January '44 until November '45, he is the Minister In Residence for the Middle East, which gave him the final say over Persia, the Middle East, and of course Palestine and Africa. So he is one of the most important politicians. And as far as the Zionist in Palestine are concerned, he becomes the most important British officer. Now, his view on Palestine and his view on the Jews. Now, he had been opposed specifically to any Jewish Army units in Palestine because he said it would upset the sensibilities of the Arabs. Not only that, when he was in his role of overseeing the colonies, on the 24th of February, 1942, you have the terrible incident of the ship, the Struma. I’ve already talked to you about the number of illegal ships that are being run into Palestine by the Haganah, the Irgun. They’re trying to run into Palestine hundreds of ships.
Remember, as I’ve said to you before, Europe is porous, people could get out. Now, the Struma was a particularly terrible case. What happened was, it was a really old boat. There were 800 Jewish refugees they were on board. They had escaped from Romania which was allied to Germany. And what they wanted to do, of course, was to reach Palestine. Their diesel engine failed between the departure from Constanza and Istanbul. And by the 23rd of February, the engine was inoperable. The Turkish authorities wouldn’t let her land because the British refused to give any visas for Palestine. They towed her from Istanbul through the Bosphorus, and then the ship was sunk. For a long time no one knew who sunk the ship. We now know, in fact, it was sunk by Soviet torpedo because they were trying, this is after the Russians are in the war against the Germans, and they were trying to stop any traffic going to the Nazis from neutral Istanbul. And consequently, although it wasn’t known till the late 60s, in fact, I think it’s later than that. And for a long time the British were blamed for it. The problem was Lord Moyne said this, “The landing of more immigrants will be formidable additions "to the difficulty of the high Commissioner. "It will have a deplorable effect throughout the Balkans "in encouraging further Jews to embark.”
Look at the timing. This is now 1942. The final solution really begins with the invasion of Russia. As I said to you yesterday, the information is coming out. So Zionist organisations are desperate to try and get their people, as many as possible, to Palestine. And here you have a British officer saying it can’t be done. Now, ironically at the time of the debate over the Struma, as the ship was being towed out by the Turkish tugs, there were tragic signs. People were putting up signs over the boat, “Save us.” In fact, only one person survived. And in the debate in the House of Commons, Josiah Wedgewood, who was a great hero and a great friend of the Jews, he opened the debate, sorry, it was the House of Lords. He opened the debate like this, “I hope yet to live to see "those who sent the Struma Park cargo back to the Nazis "hung as high as Hayman, "cheek by jail with their protector Adolf Hitler.” So basically, he was very much seen as an enemy of the Jews as far as the Zionist in Palestine were concerned. And most of the officers in the mandate of course were trying to, now this is where it gets very complicated. They believe they still had to try to appease the Arabs.
If you think back to the first World War, remember what happened in the First World War, how the British had encouraged the Arabs to revolt against the Turks. There are going to be Arab revolts. The Rashid Ali Revolt of 1941 which led to murders of hundreds of Jews. So consequently, if you were a pragmatic British officer, and let’s face it, the Zionists made very bad colonials, what on earth would you do? So there’s a lot of hostility already. However, by 1943, things are beginning to change and Moyne began to think that perhaps, the Cabinet Committee actually said that perhaps we should go back to the 1937 Peel Partition Plan. I’m going to show you a map in a minute. Moyne reluctantly said, “I think it might not be a bad idea.” It was Anthony Eden who was completely against the plan. Now let’s link it all together. What happened? I also started talking to you about events in Hungary, the Blood For Goods Deal. And I talked about how Joel Brand escaped, he basically he left Hungary, he went to Vienna, he was interrogated when he arrives at then to Istanbul. And I also mentioned to you, and it’s a very, very cloudy area of history, that probably the real purpose behind Brand’s mission was that of a man called Bandi Grosz. Himmler wanted to do a deal with the British and the Americans. So I don’t know yet if the truth will ever really come out, the real truth. But the point is, what happens to Brand, he’s incarcerated finally by the British.
And he’s interviewed by Ira Hirschmann, who was Roosevelt’s war refugee representative in Turkey. And according to Ira Hirschmann, who was a Jew, Lord Moyne believed that the best thing to do, look the British weren’t going to go in for the Blood For Goods Deal any more than the Americans because they weren’t going to make concessions to the Nazis. Having said that, Moyne evidently suggested, send him back in a non-committal way, let’s try and delay the murders. Anyway, the British finally, but it’s at that stage that Joel Brand hears a British officer say, what should we do with a million Jews? We don’t want them in Palestine. We now think through an account of Shlomo Aronson that the comment was made by the head of the refugee section at the foreign office, a man called Alec Rendell, but certainly Brand believed it was Lord Moyne and he goes to Palestine, and the man who had been left wing, he in the end in Palestine, who does he join? He joins the Lehi. And on November the 6th 1944, can we go on now and have a look at the other slides, if you don’t mind, Judi.
So in November the 6th, 1944, two young Zionists, two members of Lehi, Eliyabu Bet-Zuri, and Eliyahu Hakim waited for Moyne near his house in Cairo. Moyne arrives with his driver, and his secretary, and his ADC. The ADC gets out of the car to open the front door while the driver opens the car door. Bet-Zuri arrives and shoots the driver full in the chest. He bleeds to death. Hakim shot Moyne three times. They both escape on rented bicycles. Moyne’s ADC, he raises the alarm, the escape is bundled, the two men are arrested by the Egyptian police. Moyne regains consciousness, he’s taken to a military hospital. Doctors try to save him and they have to operate. He has a three hour operation and he dies. Major Osborne, who the ADC was principal witness at the trial, but he becomes a marked man for the Lehi. He’s later sent to Aiden and Khartoum for his own safety. And later he said this, “No doubt Lord Moyne could be regarded "as a target for political assassination. "But the shooting of the chauffeur was pure murder.” Can we have a look at the funeral, if you don’t mind, Judi? Yes here you see the funeral of Lord Moyne and he’s flown back to the UK and he’s actually cremated in Golders Green He’s in that extraordinary columbarium in Golders Green cemetery, where ironically he lies alongside such characters as Sigmund Freud. Can we see the next slide, Judi? Yeah, now this is a map. I can only see a small version, can they see a big version, Judi?
[Judi] Well, it’s big on my screen I’m showing up-
Oh it’s fine, that’s all I need to know. So presumably it’s big on your screens. Now, back in 1936, as a response to the Arab riots and the Mufti making an incredible amount of trouble, more about him soon. The British had decided that the equitable solution was the partitioning of Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab state. Now, if you have a look at that map, that part of Palestine is what is now Israel, the West Bank, Gaza and Golan. The green part is what was offered to the Jews in 1937, the orange part is what is offered to the Arabs. The Arabs refused to accept it. By 1937, they realised that the British would have to accommodate them. The Mufti, who was a brilliant politician, he created the Higher Arab Committee and they basically said, in any future war, we will make life difficult for you. Now have a look at the size of the green bit, it’s about the size of, in England Cornwall. It’s a tiny strip of land, but the Zionists accepted it. Of course, the British then decided to bat the Arabs. If you remember the words of Neville Chamberlain, the Jews will have no cause but to side with us.
Consequently, the plan is shelved but in '43 at this cabinet meeting it is reopened. And ironically, by then, Moyne is thinking that perhaps that is the equitable solution. By this time, the Mufti is working with Hitler. And what is this Haj Amin al-Husseini and what hope have they of the Arabs? And on the other hand, you’ve got all the other dominions. You have Persia, you have the oil. What on earth is Britain going to do? And basically though, it’s important to remember that this was on the table. Now going back to the murders and who planned the murders, or one of those who planned the murder, remember Stern is now dead, was a man called Yitzhak Shamir. And of course, Yitzhak Shamir later on is going to become prime minister of Israel. I’m just going to give you a little bit of his early background, there’s going to be much more about him in the course. That’s why I said to you, it’s so important to understand what is going on now, because if you do that, you’re going to understand the Middle East today. So his dates, he was born in 1915, he dies in 2012.
He’s born in Belarus, his parents were relatively prosperous, they had a leather factory. They then moved to Białystok in Poland. I’ve been to Białystok many times, it must have been once a fascinating city. A third Polish, a third Jewish, and a third German. Yes, that’s right. He went to a Hebrews high school there, he was always a Zionist. He joined Betar, which of course was Jabotinsky’s group. He was bright enough to study law at the University of Warsaw. I say bright enough because please don’t forget the quotas, Jewish quotas. And of course Begin also studied law at the University of Warsaw. He cut his studies short to go to Palestine. Tragically he lost his parents and two sisters in Lasochow. Shamir was told by a survivor they were killed by Polish villagers who had once been friends. And Shamir once reported to a friend what this survivor had told him. As his father was being murdered, evidently he screamed, I have a loyal son in the land of Israel and he will exact for me my revenge. So this is a man, he’s already in Betar, he comes to Palestine and his parents, he didn’t at this stage know what had happened, but they all had a pretty good idea by the middle of 1944 that the Jews of Eastern Europe, so few of them were surviving. Now in Palestine he worked in an accountancy office, he married Shulamit. He’d met her when she was in a detention camp. She was incarcerated by the British as an illegal and he was incarcerated as a troublemaker.
So after the split in the Irgun, he joined Lehi and after Avraham Stern’s murder, as I said, he was imprisoned by the British and he becomes one of Lehi’s leaders along with Eliyahu Giladi. So and he is one of the people who planned the assassination of Lord Moyne. Now according to another Lehi leader, Nathan Yellin-Mor, Avraham Stern had already considered the possibility of assassinating the British minister to the Middle East as early as '41 but they didn’t go ahead with that. Evidently he was an Australian, they didn’t think it was right, and for whatever reason. You know, I must say that I was reading something of Isaiah Berlin’s a few weeks ago, and he met Avraham Stern and he said he was an extraordinary gifted young man. But according to Isaiah Berlin, he was completely mad. Anyway, Shamir held Moyne responsible for British policy in Palestine.
He blamed him for the strict immigration controls, and refusing to issue the visas to the people on the Struma So according to Lehi, because later on Shamir is going to be interviewed, he’s going to be interviewed many, many times. And the purposes of the murder, this is according to Shamir, “To show the world that the conflict "was not between a government and its citizens, "but between citizens and foreign rule, "the conflict between the Jewish people "and British imperialism, "and to take the war of liberation outside Israel.” This is the point, that from now on, they’re going to take the war wherever the British are. This is what the statement at the time. “We accuse Lord Moyne and the government he represents "with murdering hundreds of thousands of our brethren, "we accuse him of seizing our country "and looting our possessions. "We were forced to seek justice and fight.” The two assassins were put on trial in Egypt.
They were given the death sentence and they appealed for mercy but on the 23rd of March, 1945, the think of the ages, one was 21 was 22, they were both hanged. Just to finish the story with them. They evidently sung the Hatikvah on the gallows. And in 1975, Egypt returned the bodies to Israel in return for 20 Egyptian prisoners of war. And Bet-Zuri and Hakim were buried on Mount Herzl as freedom fighters. It’s interesting because this is in the period of Rabin. Rabin and Ephraim Katzir both attended. Britain protested, they actually launched a formal complaint with the Israeli government through the United Nations, but the Israeli government took no notice. And in Begin’s rule, postage stamps were actually issued in their honour. So let’s just have a look at some of the aftermath. This is Churchill. Remember Moyne was a very close friend of his. “If our dreams for Zionism "ought to end in the smoke of assassins pistols "and our labours for its future "to produce only a new set of gangsters "working for Nazi Germany, "many like myself will have to reconsider "the position we have maintained so consistently "and so long in the past. "If there is to be any hope "of a peaceful and successful future for Zionism, "these wicked activities must cease "and those responsible for them "must be destroyed root and branch.”
Now in Palestine, I’m quoting Churchill, “The executive of the Jewish Agency, "have called upon the Jewish community,” and I quote their actual words, “to cast out the members of this destructive band, "deprive them of all refuge and shelter, "to resist all threats, "and to render all necessary assistance to the authorities "in the prevention of terrorist acts "and the eradication of the terrorist organisation.” These are strong words, but we must wait for these words to be translated into deeds. This is from the “Times Of London”. “The assassins have done more "by this single reprehensible crime "to demolish the edifice "erected by three generations of Jewish pioneers "more than is imaginable.” And this is Ben-Gurion response, remember, he is head of the Yishuv. The Haganah is under his command. “To England, terrorism like the murder of Lord Moyne "is like a fly stinging a lion. "But to Jewry, "it is a dagger plunged into his heart.” All the press of course, all the British press were violently against it.
But the “Manchester Guardian” had this to say, “Although they condemned the crime, "they said a little more sympathy "is needed for the Zionists.” And the other point that happened was that Sahara McMichael, the high commission, what had happened was Moyne was prepared to allow Jews in up until the quota. In fact, only 30,000 of the 75,000 quota. If you go back to the days of the white paper, the white paper said 50,000 a year for five years, whoever has the state. Only 30,000. In fact, the high commissioner doesn’t want it agreed. He says you can’t let them in. But, and it’s in September or October 44, around the time when the Lehi are planning this, the founding conference, the Arab League met in Cairo. That’s one of the reasons Britain decides to keep immigration to a minimum. Jews who have escaped to Turkey, in neutral Turkey, they’re not going to be allowed in. And this is Lord Hanky, we’ve met him before. He was one of the chaps that you saw on the interviews.
“We must be careful to avoid a recurrence "of illegal immigration from the Balkans. "We should also send Jews back to Romania "if unauthorised parties start moving, "unless we have somewhere outside Palestine "as a destination. "This may sound drastic, "but we have our backs to the wall in Palestine "and the chief of staff cannot provide forces "to keep real order.” Okay now, on October the 26th, 1993, Shamir was interviewed actually by a PhD student called Joanna Saidel. You know, life is very fascinating. This is a young PhD student and she asked for an interview and he gives it to her. And she said, “Why did you and Israel Gilardi order the execution?” And basically he says, “Lord Moyne was the highest British official "in the Middle East "and because we fought against the British in this area, "we took him for a target. "This was the main reason. "Certainly we knew about his hostile attitude to Zionism, "towards the in gathering of the Jewish people. "He was against Aliah, any Jewish immigration, "he didn’t believe that there existed such a thing "as a Jewish nation, a Jewish people "and therefore we decided on the operation.”
He was also asked, “Was it a suicide mission?” He said, “No, but it was very risky.” And then he reinforces, “You know they sung Hatikvah on the gallows.” Now both the foreign office and the home office, they don’t recover from Lord Moyne’s assassination. February '45, they actually advocate the compulsory re-nationalization of German and Austrian Jewry. “But the war is coming to an end, "what should we do with German and Austrian Jewry "who have made it to Britain? "We’re going to send them back.” And also there were complaints being received from Belgian and Dutch authorities that Jewish refugees were, basically what was happening, the Belgian and Dutch authorities were actually imprisoning Jewish refugees on the grounds that they were enemy aliens because some of them were German and Britain refused to intervene. And this is the official stated, “We would have more sympathy with the Jews "if they regarded the war as a general war "rather than a private conflict.”
So what I want to say to you is this, the Moyne assassination tipped Churchill over the edge as far as Zionism was concerned, because he had always been pro-Zionist. Of course Martin Gilbert is a wonderful historian and he’s written wonderful books, he was Churchill’s official biographer. But I think the one flaw is he adored Churchill. And you know, let’s face it, any of us who were British born, I mean, would my family be here if it hadn’t been for Winston Churchill? But when he was Prime Minister, he didn’t open the gates to Palestine, he never visited Israel, and my view, which is contrary to that of, and Martin Grail is a wonderful historian. I think he was just so angry about the assassination of Lord Moyne that he never really got over it. And of course, what I’ve just relayed to you is a terrifying issue of how do we respond in times of huge crisis? And to this day, the Irgun and the Lehi, and when I deal with the years '45 to '48, it’s even more, Joan, walking on eggshells.
Was it diplomacy? Was it the world’s sympathy? Was it support from America? Or was it, as the Irgun and the Lehi always said, “In the end, we bombed the British out of Palestine.” And this debate goes on to this day. Now I’m changing tack, but I’m not really, because I’m bringing into the picture the story of Haj Amin al-Husseini, who, some people change history. If you take the Isaiah Berlin notion, 90% of events are determined by economic, social, and political forces. However, there is that variation that, he gives it the 10% variation. There are people who can change history for the worst or for the best. And if ever somebody exacerbated the situation in the Middle East, it is Haj Amin El Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem. Now can we see his picture if you don’t mind, Judi. And then we’re going to show you a film. There is Haj Amin El Husseini. We’re not sure if he was born in 1897 or 1898 and he died in 1974. He was the man who was behind extreme Palestinian nationalism. But before we do that, I want to show you an extraordinary piece of footage. Back in 1911, a Jewish estate agent from Manchester called Murray Rosenberg visited Palestine. And even the word Palestine, I want to bring this into the argument now. As you all know, and we will be dealing more with maps.
As you all know, this was an area of the Ottoman Empire. There were great cities like Damascus, Baghdad, Jerusalem, was it a great city at the time? Well we’re going to have a look at it. But they were dealt with in administrative districts. There were important land owning families and the Nushubia, the Khalidi, the the Husseini clan of which Haj Amin was part, and there were settled Arab villages, there were also nomadic Bedouin, there were religious Jewish communities, but it was a backwater. The beginnings of politicisation really, I suppose you can take it to 1908, the Young Turk Revolution which wanted to modernise the Turkish empire. You know, most of the problems that we deal with today are the results of the collapse of the old empires at the end of the first World War. And now we’re going to be dealing with Palestine. So Murray Rosenberg goes off with his cine camera to Palestine, and the name Palestine, let me go back to that. The Arabs called it Greater Syria. Palestine, of course, was the name Palestrina used by the Romans when the Jews were finally defeated and Judea conquered, they renamed it Palestrina for the Philistines, the great enemy of the Jews. However, Palestine comes back into use in the Renaissance, but it wasn’t used by the Arabs, it’s only used by Arabs after Christian Arabs begin studying in France.
So it’s interesting the use of words. Now, so “The First Film Palestine With Murray Rosenberg”. So let’s have a look at it. You’re going to see footage of the Western War, but more than anything else, I want you to have a look at the Al-Aqsa Mosque and the hold of the Temple Mount site. It’s very important you watch this footage very, very closely. And again, I’d like to say this is very much in memory of my great friends Stuart Lipson, who was a colleague at the London Jewish Cultural Centre who collected films, cut, clipped, and now thank you Andrew Myers who is digitalizing. As we get more and more into modern history, we have the benefit of some of this incredible archive. So Judi, can we see the film please?
Video clip plays.
That’s Mrs. Rosenberg I think in the back. You see her? And of course there’s no mechitza. Notice the sate of it, this is in Ottoman, remember this is before the first world war. Okay, thank you very much, Judi. Okay, I think now I should look at questions if that’s all right Wendy.
[Wendy] That’s fine, thanks Judi.
Q&A and Comments:
- Okay, what should we give it 10 minutes, see how it goes?
This is from Joe Kolk. “My father was one of the first officers "in the Jewish Brigade. "The Russian army also had a Jewish brigade, "do we know anything about it?” Not enough to talk about it, but I know someone who does.
This is from Boris, “Glad you are going a bit slower.” Thank you Boris.
And again, Wendy, this is from Hannah. “Such a bright, intelligent man, "talking about Elie Wiesel’s son.
And this is Esther. "It was this brigade that helped us in '48.” This the Jewish brigade was very important Esther. Yes, they went into the camps, they of course were involved in the fighting in '48.
Q: “What exactly was the role of John Glove?” Mitzi.
A: He was in charge of the Jordanian Arab Legion. And when we come to that period, I’ll be talking a lot about him. If I can lighten it. When I was at Eaton, it was always an option subject, Jewish history. And I had a new group of boys and I said, I always asked them why they were studying and one boy said, “I want to find out why my mother’s father "was on the Irgun hit list.” And it turned out he was John Glubb, but anyway.
And this is from Adrian, “Many South African Jewish pilots "volunteered to join the infant Israeli Elf force "as Machal members "and we’re instrumental in creating the professional force. "Colonel Cecil Margo was offered by Ben-Gurion "head of the new Israeli Air Force.” Thank you for that.
Yes again, Alicia, “Weisel was inspiring.” I think it’s going to take us a long time to get over just how wonderful that was.
Q: Leonel wants to know, “How do you explain after the war "the Mufti was not tried as a war criminal "like other Hitler allies?”
A: Well that is one very interesting story, but I’ll be answering it on Thursday, I’m going to talk a lot about the Mufti. And also just to really wet your appetite, after the War of Independence, and after the fall of King Farouk, he was in Egypt, and he was actually encouraging ex Nazis to come and work for NASA, and many of them did.
Who do you think staffed NASA’s Ministry of Propaganda? It’s an extraordinary story.
And this is from Judi Sugarman “At the Garden of Remembrance in Westminster Abbey, "each November there’s a plot next to the Age X plot "commemorating the names of the number of the Jewish brigade "who died fighting in Italy.” That’s lovely information.
This is Catherine, “We are drinking Guinness here.” Yes.
Bev Price is saying, “Kenwood ladies Pond is the favourite place on the planet.”
Philip Heitilinger, “The British were not only pro Arab, "there was a significant strand of anti-Jewish sentiment. "Ernie Bevin being the chief anti-Semite "in the post-war labour government.” I’m not sure if he actually gets that title. You wait till we come to that period. Some of the people who worked for him I think were even more extraordinary.
Q: “Would you categorise Anthony Eden as being anti-Semitic?”
A: Oi, yo, yo, you know, depends whose definition of anti-Semitism you’re going for. I can’t remember what Israeli historians said, and I’m sure you’ve all heard this. Antisemitism is to dislike Jews more than is absolutely reasonable. I know a lot of you are getting very hot under the collar, it’s going to get worse I’m afraid.
This is from Karen. “My father was a very young doctor "in the South African Air Force that fought in Egypt, Palestine and Italy. "All South African conscripts were volunteers "and he told us the only way that Jewish men "could express their horror of the news "what was happening in Europe was to join the Allies.” Yes, Karen, that’s very extraordinary.
“Am I planning to cover the Danish experience. "If so, when?” Can I explain, we have so many different areas that we are talking about that I’m having a meeting with the team and with Wendy to see just how much of the show we look at because, of course, I think we need to get onto other areas, but that doesn’t mean we won’t come back and cover something like Denmark.
And this is from Hannah. “People should visit the Lehi Museum in Tel Aviv. "It’s small, not fancy, but very interesting.” Yes.
“The Jewish Legion were marked Palestine.” Yeah.
This is from Dr. Hazel Geiter. “We had a friend who saved and served in the British Army "in and Tulkarm "He was very frank about the instructions they were giving "in their handing of the Jewish Palestinians, the natives.” Yep.
“What was the relationship of the Palestinian Christians "with the grand Mufti?” Depends who you are talking about actually. It’s a complicated question, Robert. I’d like to answer it in a longer way.
This is Philip Hittinger. “And those who assassinated Lord Moyne were true heroes "fighting us against British imperialist oppression.” Look, that is one viewpoint. We’re into very, very, what was it you said, Joan? We’re into eggshells here. I mean, you know, I mean the British thought they were terrorists, were they? It’s a complicated question. Let me just, I’m just going on.
This is from Monty. “Shamir supposedly said the Poles sucked in antisemitism "with their mother’s milk.” Yes, he did say that. When I trained to become a tour guide in Israel, we toured Yad Vashem and this precise quote was also what we were taught there. You see that is, I think that’s very complex. I tried to bring out the complexity of Poland. Look, of course what’s going on there is absolutely appalling at the moment, but things are not quite so straightforward.
This is Nachim, “I was in Białystok in 1936. "Is there anyone in Toronto at that time? "I would like to meet them.”
This is from Cynthia. “Hi Nachim, my grandmother’s family "were Meisters from outside of Minsk "so I’m Toronto and a cousin is working on a family history. "I believe the first of my grandmother’s sisters "arrived about 1910, 12.”
Wendy, what are we going to do with this group? It’s unbelievable.
“The Guinness family "has always been notoriously anti-Semitic. "Was this due to the assassination of Lord Moyne? "Not all of them. "Yes, I mean, if it would’ve been your family, "I think you would’ve been very, very anti.” Melvin goes on to say, “The assassination precipitated the Cesar.” Yes, Melvin will be covering that of course.
“When did Arabs begin using the term Palestine?” Wait for that because it’s complex.
This is from Paula. “I have my father’s passport from Palestine issued 1929. "I simply refer to the land as British Palestine "to differentiate from today’s term. "I have many stories about his five years there.”
“Yes, notice both men and women at the Western Wall.” That’s why I wanted to you to see the footage. Look, it’s old, look it was taken in different slices between 1911 and the eve of the first World War. So it’s important, but I think it’s very important. The mechitza wasn’t set up till 1929 and that sparked problems with the Arabs because they said it’s a desecration of an Arab holy place. The Mufti certainly raised up the issue of Jerusalem as a centre of Arab thought. But I wanted you to see the sight. So it wasn’t at that time, it was very much Mecca and Medina.
“Why did the Jews reject the Egyptian offer "to sell the Western Wall?” Robert, I don’t know about that, you’ll have to tell me.
Yes, this is from Sally, “In the second film, "it’s interesting to see so many domed homes. "It certainly looks like a black back quarter.”
“What date?” I’ve said that. They’re in 1911 and 1913. Yeah, yeah, it was only in 1929 that they put up a mechitza. It also shows you how small it is.
Yes, this is from Ted. “Perhaps we should emphasise "the importance of Middle East oil fields "for both Britain and Germany. "The need to supply their forces were a giant influence "on how the British dealt with the Palestinians, "they couldn’t afford it.” You see, this is again, very important. Look, as I tried to say to you, and thank you for bringing that point up, Ted, if you were a British officer and you were fighting a war, and remember Britain held out on its own between September '39 until '41. Look, if it hadn’t been for the Russians and the Americans entering the war, just imagine what could have happened in England. But so basically if you were a British officer, you didn’t have to be an anti-Semite to realise you had to try and appease the Arabs. The question that I’d like you to ask yourselves, but I don’t know the answer, is was the conflict always inevitable? Or could there have been a more equitable solution? It’s fascinating because the Middle East, Israel Palestine, is the one issue that doesn’t go away. If you think about the partition of India and Pakistan at the end of the first World War, at the end of Second World War, I beg your pardon. Millions of people died in that.
“Why is the dome so often used in buildings?” I think we need, we would have to ask Patrick that. I think it’s partly religious, but I think it’s also architectural.
“Can you please tell us once more?” The movie was made between 1911 and 1913. It was made by this Manchester estate agent called Murray Rosenberg. He went there just to test, well he went to visit, you know.
Yes, the Hurva Synagogue, yes.
Q: “How long were the Dome Of The Rock "and Al-Aqsa Mosque derelict for?”
A: For quite a long time. It’s only really with the Mufti and the British and Palestine and the the Antiquities Commission they begin to clean it up.
This is from Michael. Michael, I knew you’d say this. “There is no doubt in my mind "that had Lehi and Exon afterwards "Haganah started attacking the British soldiers, "there would not have been a Judean state today.”
Oh this is funny, this is from JW. “British properties located in West Vancouver "against the breathtaking backdrop of mountains "and overlooking the straits of "was an upper class enclave in which Jews and Chinese "could not buy property. "I grew up in Vancouver. "Corrin Farber had a white stony policy for many years.” What a world.
This is from Reeva to Judi. “Could I get a transcript of the talk "as I couldn’t attend it, it is so praised.” Yes Reeva, it was absolutely a wonderful talk. A lot of people are mentioning how interesting it is to see men and women praying together.
This is Gothamite. “Andrew Roberts asserts that Churchill remained pro Zionist "and said he would’ve opposed the Corbynite trends "in the Labour party.” Oh, I’m sure he would’ve been anti Corbyn. Churchill was a huge man. I think he was angry, he was very angry. But on the other hand, look he was close to Weizmann. Look, it’s a bit of a tragedy here. After the war, as the horror was revealed, Churchill was in office, remember? He wouldn’t see Weizmann, and his son, who was very Zionist, he wrote to Weizmann and said, look, my father is so tired. Now what was the reality of it all? In his great work, remember he also won the Nobel prize for literature and he was a pretty formidable artist. He does write rather well about the Jews as a civilising force in the world. He did believe in Zionism. I mean those of you who’ve been with me a long time, you may remember that he was in favour of Zionism because he believed it would stop the Jews being communist. And I should mention that I’ve been having discussions with Wendy and William Tyler and what we are planning to do in the future is William will give a big in depth on Churchill and then I will follow it with Churchill and the Jews because I think he’s such a great figure. And Wendy and I have been talking about also doing it with Napoleon and Oliver Cromwell, people who had a huge impact on history but also changed the course of Jewish history.
“Was there any communication between the Jews and the Arabs "before World War II?” Yes lots, and we will talk about that.
“Where can I get more information about the Jewish brigade?” What I suggest go into Google and at the bottom of the Jewish brigade, they will list books. They will list the books that you should have a look at.
“El Husseini Planned Operation Atlas.” Yes, Adrian he did. Husseini was up to his neck in all sorts of things. He worked with the German Templars They were going to try to make as much trouble for the Jews of Palestine as possible.
Q: “In view of the UK dependence on oil, "what other policy do you suggest the UK could have pursued "re Jewish immigration to Israel?”
A: You see, this is the problem. You know, Machiavelli a long, long time ago wrote a very interesting book on states craft called “The Prince”. And he said, what is the duty of morality of states and what is the duty of morality of the private individual? Look the British, it depends on why the British were in Palestine in the first place. If they were there in the end for their own ideas, and look, you can make the case the British wanted an empire that stretched from Suez to India, a land empire. We will talk about this in a lot of depth when we look up '45 to '48.
“Didn’t the Jewish brigade also,” this is from Carol, “Didn’t the Jewish brigade "also organise ships of camp survivors to Palestine?” Oh yes, we’ve got a lot to talk about because it’s all going to blow between '45 and '48.
“Who was Colonel Kisch?” K-I-S-C-H. I am not sure.
This is from Gail. “My parents lived in Palestine from 1936 to 1942. "They had what was called a safe house. "When the small boats arrived "with the so-called illegal immigrants, "one or two would be secretly taken to their home "where housed for the night. "They gave them a bed, meal or two, "but asked no questions until they were moved elsewhere "on a more permanent basis.” That’s an extraordinary story, Gail. I hope you all write your stories down because you need to.
Q: “I guess the British reneged on their pledges "because of Arab oil, "that overruled the moral position. "What do you think?”
A: Georgina I think there were people who believed that the Jews should have a state in the House of Commons, in the House of Lords, government people and there was a lot of sympathy. When the films of the liberation of the camp were released in Britain, don’t forget the British liberated Belsen. And an extraordinary film was made on the liberation of Belsen, actually by a Jew called Sidney Bernstein. He was a cameraman working for the BBC, but he was also a very important filmmaker. He created Granada Television. And by the way, 'cause sometimes you have to bring the light side of life in. He and his brother were responsible for the longest running soap in the world, “Coronation Street.” His brother-in-law was the first Jewish doctor into Belsen and he phoned him up and said, “You’ve got to come in and film this.” And he was working with Hitchcock on a film called “Under Capricorn”. And Hitchcock advised him how to film it. And when these films were shown, people were fainting, they were sick. You see, that’s what I meant about information. You hear, you know. Because of the world we live in now, look at the machine we’re all looking at. When you see films, we know, we live in a global village now. But television, although it had been invented, it wasn’t in everybody’s homes in the 40s. I remember when my family bought its first television, along with so many other Brits, we bought it to see the coronation. When Queen Elizabeth was crowned, that’s when most ordinary folk bought their first television. Just think about it, how the world’s escalated.
“What about the San Remo conference?” I’ve covered that. I will have to go back, we’re going to have to look a lot at maps. Can I suggest to you, there is a very good book by Martin Gilbert, it’s called 'The Arab Israeli Conflict, “It’s History in Maps”. Let me repeat that. “The Arab-Israeli Conflict It’s History In Maps”. Martin Gilbert, not only is he a great historian, one of the things he did that made teaching so much easier, he created his map books. You know the great quote of Isaiah Berlin, the tragedy of the Jews, “Too much history, not enough geography.” Well, it’s important to see how the lands change, the San Remo Peace Conference. Look so much of a muddle was made at the end of the First World War where arbitrarily nations were created.
This is David. “I was viewing the whaling war "when it was still in Jordan in 1958.” Goodness, yeah. And I believe that a lot of the Jewish sites were desecrated under the Jordanians
“Do, we agree that should we stop speaking of "Arabs in Israel, Gaza and the territories as Palestinian? "So they only adopted the name in 1967 "and use it to damage and make false claims of the land "and to denegate the truth.” Andrea, it’s such a complicated question. You see, look, when you are dealing with the Middle East, you are dealing with hundreds of layers. I don’t know if that would actually make any difference.
This is from Clive Boxer. Hi Clive. “There’s a book by Maurice Beckman "entitled The Jewish Brigade, an Army with two masters "I in AXE am now adding all the names of the members "of the Jewish Brigade to our record of honour "after much difficulty in getting access,” Clive, that is wonderful. Did you all get that? A book by Maurice Beckman entitled “The Jewish Brigade and Army With Two Masters.”
This is a superb, you know, I can’t tell you how much I appreciate all of you.
Q: “Is there any good book which covers the period "and has any book ever been published, "to describe the attempts by numerous ships "to try to get into Palestine?” Amanda.
A: Yes, there are a few books, but they tend to be partisan. There’s such division between Irgun and the Lehi and the Haganah, but so unfortunately there isn’t one book, Peter, you’re going to have to read a lot of them.
Georgine I’ve already answered that.
Men and women prayed together at the Western Wall because there was no mechitza.
“In the late 70s I was working in Redding "and in a nearby hotel there was a notice in the bar "explaining why Guinness was not served there, "explaining that this because "the shelter given to the Nazis by the Guinness family.
"Now, does anyone know which hotel it was? "I would like to send them my best wishes.” Hold on now, the Guinness’ had land in Ireland, they were an Anglo Irish family and the IRA was up to its neck with the Nazis in the war. It’s important to remember that.
Joan, “Oh domes architectural heat rising.” Thank you Joan. “And am I still walking on eggshells?”
“You did not mention the hanging of the Sergeant Shirley,” because I haven’t got there yet. That is going to happen between ‘45 and '48.
Trudy, I’m sorry.
Should we stop there now?
Sorry, I want to jump in and just say today, in terms of the Guinness family, when I was the chair of the British Friends Without Museums of Israel, Louisa Guinness, who was a very close friend, was extremely, extremely supportive. You know, donated work for Israel and came to our dinners. So the sins of the past are not always, you know, translated onto this new generation. And so it’s up for Louisa who’s the most wonderful, wonderful friend and has been supportive of Israel. So, you know, and her husband, Ben Brown who’s an art dealer. So I’m giving heads up for both of them who’ve been extremely supportive of us.
Thank you for that.
So I’ll jump in on that score. I also wanted to say that my mother-in-law’s brother, her older brother was the first pilot to be shot down in World War II. South African fighting on behalf of the British and you know, I heard a lot about that for for many, many, many years, the trauma of that. And my mother’s brother left when he was a young boy of 16 years old also to go and fight for Israel, actually. So it’s very close to home. And the last thing that I’d like to say is we are going to have contentious issues and we are going have different points of view, and I’ve encouraged Trudy not to shy away from controversial issues because I think that’s what’s interesting and that’s what’s, you know, what sparks the dialogue and the narrative. And we all need to listen to each other and hear each other because during that situation, how does one respond?
I think Wendy, your points are terribly well taken. And also I’ve mentioned Diana Mosley, but her sister Deborah was married to the Duke of Devonshire and they were great supporters of Israel. So, and you know, one of the problems for the Jews is the sins of the fathers visited on the children. We do not believe that.
Yeah.
As you said, was Lord Moyne antisemite or was he just a patriotic Brit? Look, some of the things that happened were appalling. And I think this, as you said, we are now in very controversial waters, but I think as you said, we’re going to stay in them, we’ve got to. But what I think is so wonderful, Wendy, is that you’ve managed to pull together, we’re almost like a family now so we can have these discussions and hopefully we can come to some sort of living together at least.
Yeah, I think so. And truly also, I know that we are meeting in half an hour, so I’m going to leave you now and you will you sign off whenever you’re ready.
Okay, I think I better sign off now. But Wendy, and of course I’m talking about Haj Amin al-Husseini on Thursday. Let me just reiterate because I took your advice, I’m buying much more time now. And I hope the group thinks I’m going slowly enough now.
Don’t worry.
Alright, I’ll see you at half past seven, but we won’t see you, Wendy and I have got a meeting. Lots of love everybody.
Wendy and Trudy, I’ll send you new links for our talk in a bit and when. And Trudy, just to remind everybody that we are not doing Slovakia a case study. I know that was on the schedule, but as you said, we are going to continue with the current subject on Thursday.
Yes, and please don’t email Judi about it. This was a decision that Wendy and I took because I was running out of time. We will look at Slovakia, but not next week, but we will just as there are so many other countries that we’ve got to make decisions on. So God bless everyone and just-
And just to say, I also want to just to reiterate everybody, this is really a family informal Zoom Academy or you know-
Yeah.
And that is why we are small enough and nimble enough to change the programme when we think that it is fit to do so. So we hope we haven’t offended anybody. Enjoy the rest of your day and night, and guys, I’ll see you in 40 minutes.
Thanks, bye-bye everyone.
God bless you, bye-bye.
Thanks. Okay, goodnight everybody else, goodbye.