Trudy Gold
The Wannsee Conference

Trudy Gold - The Wannsee Conference

- We’ve gone live.

• Okay. There’s a good lecture tonight, isn’t there?

• [Judi] Yes.

• I sent you a note. Yeah, that sounds very interesting. Why do we work too hard? I’m going to listen. It’s a fabulous title.

• Just having a look at where we at. Right, Trudy, I’m going to just hide myself and go on mute, and we’ll just wait a few minutes before we start.

• Or shall I work on participants and when we get to a certain number.

• There we go.

• [Trudy] Oh, Wendy’s joined.

• Oh, hi, Wendy. We’ve gone live. Hello.

• Hi, so sorry.

• [Trudy] How are you, Wendy?

• Hello, Trudy. Hello, everybody. Hi, sorry.

• [Trudy] Nice to see you, darling.

• Yeah, likewise. So, Trud, whenever you’re ready, start, will you?

• Yes, of course. I’ll give it one more minute and then I will start.

• Okay, sorry, thank you.

• I love the title of the lecture for tonight, Wendy, Why Do We Work So hard?

• Oh, with James, it’s going to be fantastic.

• It sounds fun. It sounds wonderful.

• Well, that’s thanks to Janet. Actually, I knew James when he was a little boy.

• Oh, you joke, yeah.

• And I was a little girl. I was a little older than him though, but, so anyway, we’ll be looking forward to that. Okay, I’m going to just jump off now. I’m going to hand over to you, Trud.

• Okay.

• [Wendy] Thanks

• All right, good evening, good afternoon, everyone. And welcome. Can we have the first slide, if you don’t mind, Judi? Yes. That is the house of the Wannsee Villa.

• Trudy, Trudy, I’m very sorry. Before you start, should we just remind everybody that we’ve got our celebration on-

• Yes, of course. Yes, that’s important.

• [Wendy] On Sunday.

• Yes.

• All right. So do you want you to just give details?

Visuals are displayed throughout the presentation.

• We’re going into the darkness today, but on Sunday, we’re really going into the light. And I think that is so important because we have a wonderful celebration to commemorate a year of Lockdown University. And I really advise you all to listen to it because it’s really the best of Jewish culture, so from the dark to the light. And thanks for that, Wendy, and for everything you do. You see in front of you a villa. That is the villa of the Wannsee House. It’s in a beautiful setting. It’s on a lake. It’s about a half an hour drive from Berlin. And it is the place where before Hitler, the wealthy had their villas. It’s a beautiful lake. So people would go there for the weekend. There was picnics, there was, I want you to imagine a pleasure place. And today, before we get into the darkness, I want to point out to you, it is one of the best educational centres I have ever been to in my life because the Wannsee House, of course, in the period I’m talking about is where a group of business executives came together and retroactively discussed the murder of 11 million people. Those of you who have businesses will know that when you have a problem to deal with, you call together all your part departments to see the most efficient way of sorting this out.

That is exactly what’s going to happen at the Wannsee Conference. And what is absolutely extraordinary about it is instead of talking about an interdisciplinary dispute or going forward, it’s actually about death. It is how you can efficiently wipe 11 million people off the face of the earth. And the question that always strikes me so passionately, where does the dehumanisation start? And who in the end is dehumanised? But let me first just point out what happens at the Wannsee House. There was a brilliant director called Dr. Wolfgang Kaiser, who I worked with for many years. He, in fact, was married to an Israeli psychiatrist. They lived in Berlin. And the whole purpose of the Wannsee House was to actually look at certain spheres of German life. They looked at lawyers, they looked at doctors, they looked at the police, they looked at lorry drivers, any kind of profession, train operatives. And they would send groups of them to Wannsee to look at what happens when the law is overturned.

When, to quote Hugo Gryn, I know I keep on quoting this, but I think in a way, it sums it up for me. “When the 10 Commandments are reversed and when there is no attempt to equate law with morality.” This weekend, and Dennis and David are actually going to go into the representations of the Wannsee House on film, and they are going to talk about the personalities and how it developed. But let me first talk about the retroactive. We come into very, very dark areas. Did Hitler always intend to murder the Jews or not? And this has been a huge field of controversy amongst historians. I’ve said this to you in the past, frankly, these kind of exercises, I believe in searching for the truth, but these kind of exercises, when you are dealing with the show, to me, they’re not very, very important. What happens is that up until October, 1941, Jews could get out. As I’ve reiterated in the past, between 33 and 39, you had a policy of economic, social, and political discrimination.

Added to that venality, there was the attempt to strip Jews of, first, Germany, then Austria, and then of the Czech lands of their possessions with a view to get them out. It changes with the invasion of Poland. And, of course, we’ve spent the past couple of sessions looking at the Warsaw Ghetto because it’s important not just to think about the evil ones, particularly around Yom HaShoah. And, of course, it’s Yom HaShoah in South Africa. Isn’t it interesting that Israel and America, and I presume South Africa, chose the anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto to commemorate Yom HaShoah? Because if some of the characters we’ve looked at, not just the physically brave, although they’re wonderful, be they to the right or to the left or the Bund, they were wonderful, but also, characters like Janusz Korczak, Emanuel Ringelblum. And there’s something I’m going to be coming onto later, a group of non-Jews who risked everything and sometimes lost their lives to save people. So the brutalization of the occupation of Poland, and then, of course, the breaking of the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact, and the invasion of Russia. What I can tell you, without a shadow of doubt, is the murders begin with the invasion of Russia. Already back in 1939, Hitler had made a very chilling speech in the Reichstag.

This is in January, 1939. “I will once more be a prophet. "If the international Jewish financiers in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world war, then the results will not be the Bolshevization of the earth, and thus, the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe.” Now, what did he mean by that? Because he makes this threat. But up until October 41, they could get out of Germany. It was after 41 that they stopped that even after the invasion of Russia. And we know the invasion of Russia is on the 22nd of June of 1941, following the army into battle with the Einsatzgruppen that those action squads made up of four different units, 3,000 men in all. Many of the leadership were incredibly well-educated. This is another issue that I spent a lot of time on. They also were aided and abetted by units of Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Latvians, the German police, and the Wehrmacht. And this is when the killings begin. I’m going to read you a couple of comments from German generals. Now, this is important because for a long time, the Wehrmacht got away with it. But this is, it’s really when communism collapsed because never forget the majority of the archives were in Eastern Europe. And you’ve got a very cynical issue to consider, which we’ll talk about later on. After Stalin took East Berlin and most in Eastern Europe, he knew they were collaborators, of course, they were, but he had to forge a nation. And one of the issues, and I’ve discussed this in relation to Poland, but also in relation, think about it in relation to Lithuania and Ukraine and Latvia. I’ve had a lot of notes from you about articles on these issues, and thank you very, very much, and we will go back to it.

But what is absolutely important to understand is that Stalin never really denazified. Look, according to Russian sources, he murdered 40 million of his own people. So when communism finally collapses, on the positive side, we had access to the archives. But what you see happening in Eastern Europe now is that many of these fascist collaborators were anti-communists and they are now seen as heroes. Plus the fact, Eastern Europeans felt that they were victims. So consequently, they feel that their victimhood should be taken into consideration, and that’s one of the reasons you have so much resentment of the Shoah. It’s a huge area. And I’ve been discussing it with Wendy, and I know we will be having debates on this, but let me just read to you. This is General Hoth, he’s the commander of the 17th Army. “Our mission to save European culture from the advancing Asiatic barbarism.” He spoke of the German sense of honour. This is a speech he gave to his men, the German sense of honour and race when confronting Jewish bolshevism who have no regard for moral values.

Now, we know that on the 31st of July, 1941, Heydrich received orders from Goering to carry out all preparations to organise the material side and financial viewpoint for a total solution of the Jewish question in areas of Europe under German control. I’m here quoting the great Yehuda Bauer. “And it’s Eichmann, his trial in Jerusalem, stated that he believed that Hitler had ordered the total extermination in August 41.” Bauer believes it was around March 41 because he believes it’s at that stage, and it’s mentioned in Gilbert’s “Diary”. He gives the order. The problem is there isn’t a proper letter. That’s why spurious historians, fascists like David Irving can say, “Where’s the document?” And we also know that the gassings began on the 8th of December, 1941 in Chelmno. Look, killing by bullets, it went wrong. Why did it go wrong? Not for the kind of reasons that we dream and hope of, that people just were sickened by it. It went wrong because it was, bullets are expensive and certain members of the SS, even the leadership were feeling, were having to drink too much.

And besides, there are better ways of killing. And it had already been worked out for the terrible euthanasia programme, the murder of the mentally and physically handicapped in Germany. Now, who is in charge of the final solution? Now, it’s Himmler. It is, of course, come straight from Hitler, Himmler, Heydrich, the man that Hitler referred to as the man with the iron heart. And then, of course, the functionary, the boring functionary, Eichmann. I just want to read to you one of the reasons the Germans had a problem with the shootings. We know this is a terrible report. This is on the extermination of the Jews in Ukraine. And this is a note that is sent back to head office in Berlin. “The bitter hostility of the Ukrainian population against the Jews is extremely great because it’s thought they were responsible for the explosions in Kyiv. They are also seen as NKVD informers and agents who unleashed terror against Ukrainian people.” You see, this was always the double-edged sword of, yeah, hatred in Eastern Europe.

The religious notion of the deicide, plus, of course, all Jews are communist, that terrible stereotype that just doesn’t disappear. And remember, this is a report from the Einsatzgruppen leadership. All Jews were arrested in retaliation for the arson in Kyiv. And altogether, 33,771 Jews were executed on September the 29th and 30th. This is of course, Babi Yar. And it’s interesting because the great Yevtushenko wrote a poem about Babi Yar. Khrushchev was furious because it singled out the Jews, but more about that when we come to it chronologically. But think of the venality. Gold, valuables, and clothing were collected and put at the dispose of the National Socialist Welfare Association for the equipment of the Volksdeutsche, and part given to the appointed city administration for distribution to the needy population. So they take away, they murder the Jews, they take away their property, the good property goes back to the Germans. Some go back to the Volksdeutsche who are repopulating, but let’s keep the Ukrainian suite and make sure they have it.

And then, this is also a report from Schitomir. “3,145 Jews had to be shot because experience showed us, they must be considered as saboteurs and bearers of Bolshevik propaganda.” Of course, there is the very famous report by Karl Jager, who was the commander of Einsatzkommando 3, and this is about the extermination of Lithuanian Jewry. And I know for those of you who come from South Africa, this is particularly painful. “I can confirm today that Einsatzkommando 3 has achieved the goal of solving the Jewish problem in Lithuania. There are no more Jews in Lithuania apart from working Jews and their families. The numbers in Siauliai, 4,500, in Kovno, about 15,000, in Vilnius, about 15,000. I wanted to eliminate the working Jews and their families as well. But the civil administration and the Wehrmacht attacked me most sharply and issued a prohibition against having these Jews and their families shot. The goal of clearing Lithuania of Jews could be achieved only through the establishment of the especially selected mobile commando under the command of SS Hamann who adopted my aims fully and who was able to ensure the cooperation of the Lithuanian partisans and the civil authorities.” So I could give you so many, many more examples.

What you had in Eastern Europe during the Murder by Bullets campaign was a lot of cooperation. But there are still problems, as I have outlined. And consequently, the decision is made. It’s actually Goering who gives the order to Heydrich, who is number two to Hitler, to convene a conference to make sure, because you notice from that report that there is a disagreement between the Einsatzgruppen and other areas of the German government. So what we need to do is to bring together every branch of government. We don’t have to bring transport in because transport is already working with us. And what you’re going to see in the next couple of slides is the implementation of a bureaucratic modern crime that is going to last for four years, and is going to intensify when the Germans are losing the war. It’s absolutely extraordinary that the fantasy of race hatred is going to take them to a stage where in the end, killing Jews and propaganda becomes more important than winning the war. It took general historians quite a long time to take that on. But now, this is mainstream history, that this race war is at the core of the inner circle. And the questions that we are left with are so deep and dark. Did people who voted for the Nazis in 1933, are they in any way complicit in what happened to the Jews of Europe? Are those who joined the SS, how complicit are they?

How complicit are the Germans who joined the Wehrmacht? Where does responsibility end? And what about all those? And this is a subject we’re going to be coming on to, and it’s a particular importance when you are looking at the relationship of Israel with the Shoah. Where was the world? That’s what the modern state of Israel asks, where was the world? Because the killings, the earliest reports of the killings come out late July, August, 1941. There is so much evidence that by December the 17th, 1942, you have the Inter-Allied Declaration, which is read in the British Parliament by Anthony Eden. So they knew. It was in the newspapers. You could read accounts from time to time. And I’m talking now from an Israeli point of view, I’m talking now from the point of view of the Zionist in Palestine who felt that the rescue, they were trapped, and that the doors of rescue had been shut in their faces even though there were so many requests, so much evidence. And please don’t forget that Hungarian Jewry was not attacked until the spring of 1944. So why am I bringing these events together?

Because in discussing with Wendy and our other colleagues, we think, “Look, why are we concentrating on this period?” We’ve spent nearly a year on Jewish history. We’re concentrating on this period because as I said to you last time, I really think the key to human behaviour is here. So we look at the dark, but we are also going to look at some of those magnificent characters. And I guess the key is what makes people resist? What makes people rescuers? And when do we see the warning signs in any society? These are questions that I know that David and Dennis are going to be dealing with, beginning to deal with at the weekend, and it’s something that we will continue with. Now, just to give you a notion of just how terrible the Einsatzgruppen actions and also the war in the East, 600,000 Red Army officers were shot by the Wehrmacht in the first few months of fighting. Remember, the Geneva Conventions do not apply in the East. They are to be shocked. These are the partisan orders. This is a war of race. Now, this is from the 6th of October, 1941, the commander of the Sixth Army Field Marshall, Walther von Reichenau. “The essential goal of this campaign against the Jewish Bolshevik system is the complete destruction of its power instruments and the eradication of the Asiatic influence on the European cultural sphere.

In the East, the soldier is not only a fighter according to the rules of warfare, but also a carrier of an inexorable racial concept, and is the avenger of all the best realities which have been committed against the Germans and related races.” And do you hear the juxtaposition of that language? “A carrier of an inexorable racial concept, and is the avenger of all the best realities which have been committed against the Germans and related races.” This is a complete overturning of any kind of logical process. Therefore, the soldier, and this is the ordinary German soldier, must have complete understanding for the necessity of the harsh just atonement of Jewish sub-humanity. Sometimes the Jews are referred to a sub-human, other times, they’re referred to as the only race capable of destroying the area. If I tell you that in the insane world of Himmler, they decided to find out where the headquarters of the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” was. When they had the total powerlessness of the Jew, they decided they’ve just got to find out where the secret power source is, and they thought it was in New York. Now, this is General Erich von Manstein, the commander of the 11th Army. This is the 20th of November, 1941. “The Jewish Bolshevik system must be eradicated once and for all, never again may interfere in our European living space. The German soldier is therefore not only charged with destroying the power instrument of this system, he marches forth also as a carrier of a racial concept and as an avenger of all the atrocities, which have been committed against the whole of the German people.”

Now, in the wake of the killings, as I said, it isn’t satisfactory enough. Other ideas aren’t going to work. Up until the end of 1940, Eichmann was gathering information on Madagascar. That was one idea. But it failed because the British blockaded Madagascar. The beginning of 1939, the Schacht-Rublee deal, Schacht, the head of the Reichsbank, had actually contacted an American lawyer and Zionist offering to sell the remainder of European Jewry. But now, when we are going for war in the East, it has to be over. Everything has changed. And you have the Commissar Order of the 6th of June, 41. The Army was told not to show any mercy. Now, so Heydrich convenes a conference. It was to be held earlier, but intervening events, what happened in December, 1941? To start with, war in the East, plus, America enters the war. And some of the people he needed were busy elsewhere. So finally, the order is given for January the 20th, 1942. The first idea was that they were to meet at the Interpol headquarters. Interpol was actually developed by the Germans in the war. Fascinating. That’s another story another time. But, so they’re going to meet at this villa, Wannsee on January the 20th, 1942. Now, Wannsee, the villa, Wannsee had been requisitioned by Heydrich as a rest and recreation centre for the SS because the great lords of the earth had to come home. They had to have holidays with their girlfriends.

The Wannsee Villa in this beautiful area not far from Berlin, what a perfect place to bring your wives, your girlfriends, to have rest and recreation. And when you are talking about knowledge, do you think the soldiers didn’t talk? Do you think the SS didn’t talk? Thousands, and hundreds of thousands of people knew what was going on. So never be, I think it’s important that we understand this, not to grind people’s noses into the dust because let’s be real. The Germany today, the young people of today have absolutely nothing to do with this. I believe passionately that the sins of the fathers are not visited on the children. There’s that terrible passage in St. Matthew’s gospel, when Pilate washes his hands of Jesus’ execution. Of course, why does that happen? Because the people who wrote the gospels, and Matthew’s gospel was written at least 60 years after Jesus’ death. They’re not going to do anything anti-Roman. I’ve talked about this at length. And if you want to know more about this, read Hyam Maccoby.

He washes his hands. And the verse in Matthews gospel, “His death be upon us, and upon our children.” And it was only in 1963 that the Vatican Council forgave the Jews for the crime of deicide for all generations. So I feel very strongly, you don’t write the sins of the fathers on the children. But going back to the fact that he convenes this conference, and this is Hitler’s speech 10 days later at the Sportpalast in Berlin, “The Germans were well-aware that the war could eventually only end when the Jews had been uprooted from Europe and when they disappear. Now, for the first time, they will not bleed other people to death. But for the first time, the old Jewish law of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth will be applied and the hour will come when the enemy of all time will have played his part to the end. The war will end with the annihilation of the Jews.” Now, this message was received in both London and Washington, okay? Now, can we go on to the next slide, please, Judi. This is very, very difficult, the Wannsee Protocol. So Heydrich convenes the meeting. He is number two to Himmler. His functionary is Adolf Eichmann. And you will see that he has convened individuals from different bureaus, different departments. Now, under Himmler, you see Hoffman and Heydrich.

Then, of course, the Party Chancellery has to be represented. So there, you have Gerhard Klopfer. The Reich Chancellery, Kritzinger. The Government General of Poland, that is, of course, the disgusting, Hans Frank. He sends Josef Buhler. The occupied territories, Alfred Meyer representing Rosenberg. The four-year plan, you see Erich Neumann who is representing Goering. Foreign Affairs, Martin Luther, representing Ribbentrop. You see, the Ministry of the Interior, that’s Wilhelm Stuckart. And the Minister of Justice, Roland Freisler. You see, these are the instruments of state. And this is something that Dennis will talk about. Isn’t it fascinating that the Nazis kept the law? If you killed an Aryan, you would be sentenced to death in Germany. This is law, this is going to be enacted in law. And then you have some individuals representing the SS. So they’re under Heydrich. You have Muller, who is head of the Gestapo, Rudolf Lange, and you have Schongarth who is working for the Nazis in the government general. These are the participants at the Wannsee Conference, and these are the people they represent. And what it’s also about is for Heydrich to show that he takes precedence. This is his plan. He is in control. And it’s to make sure that everybody else participates. That the merging of the Jews is a, it is an important war aim. For example, how’s it going to fit in law?

Because the conference begins, by the way, at 12 o'clock, we know quite a lot about it. It begins at 12 o'clock, and it begins with a fabulous meal, sumptuous meal. And then the debate. But the delegates all understood it was to talk about the Shoah. And this is Yehuda Bauer. Wannsee was implemented and government departments had to show that Heydrich was responsible to Hitler. And he emphasises that he didn’t need to bring anyone in from the transport ministry because the transport was already onsite. So the foreign ministry, the General Government, which is Poland, the Poles, the General Government, Frank is very worried. How is he going to feed all his Jews? Well, you know what the Russians were like in the Warsaw Ghetto. Thousands of people starving to death, typhus. But nevertheless, he calls them feeders. He’s worried that the Jews are all being dumped in his territory, all have to be subsumed. Now, Eichmann, later on, because, of course, Eichmann was later captured by the Israelis, he said, “I felt that I was Pilate and come clear of any guilt.”

You see, with Eichmann, Eichmann had prepared the papers for everyone. He is the one who sent the minutes out to all the delegates. There were 30 copies, and they were told that it was a secret conference. But if you think about the various issues that had to be discussed, now, the four year plan, the fact that we are murdering Jews rather than working them to death, is that going to upset the economy? When it comes to the law, what about mixed race couples? The whole issue of the Mischling up. That was something lawyers were very, very concerned about. But nevertheless, it only takes 90 minutes for the conference to finish. And it’s important to remember they are not deciding on the murder of the Jews of Europe. What they’re deciding on is methodology. There was a debate, shall there be sterilisation? But in the end, it’s methodology. Now, let me show you an incredibly chilling slide. Ah, I hope you can all see this. This comes from the documents in the Holocaust from the Yad Vashem. It’s one of the most comprehensive series of documents. Now, what Eichmann, Eichmann, lead the archbureaucrats. Remember, this is a bureaucratic crime. He is responsible for finding out how many Jews there are throughout the Nazi zone of influence, 11 million.

Now, Germany, Altreich, 131,800. Ostmark is Austria, 43,700. Ostgebiete is the area around Lublin. The General Government, 2,284,000. Bialystok, Protectorate, the Nazis divided things up for their own purposes, 400,000. Estland, Judenfrei, you see, many of them had already been murdered. If you go through the Netherlands, a number of Jews in the Netherlands, 160,000. In Norway, 1,300. Now, you come to the second category. The Jews of Bulgaria, allied, 48,000. The Jews of England, 330,000. Eichmann had also prepared the list of 2,800 Jews. If the Nazis crossed the channel, they would immediately be arrested and murdered. The leadership, they were also, of course, in the lists or the important Englishmen who’d have, and women who’d have to be get rid of. Finland, 2,300,000, Ireland, 4,000. The Italian areas, remember, they’re allies, 58,000. Going down Croatia. Croatia is a particularly ghastly situation because the Croatians actually paid the Nazis to murder the Jews. Portugal. Portugal, of course, is neutral. Romania, ally, 342,000. Sweden, 8,000. Switzerland.

Switzerland. It’s very difficult to see these figures, but there are people, aren’t they? Switzerland is 10,000. Slovakia, 88,000. The Spanish, neutral. Turkey, neutral. Hungary, 742,000. USSR, 5 million, broken into districts. Ukraine, 2,994,000. Bialystok again, 446, coming to a total of 11 million. That was the report that had been prepared by Adolf Eichmann for his masters so that they could go through the various categories of numbers. They also, he’d done his work well. For example, they’d looked at the actual, the distribution of Jews according to occupation in the USSR. And basically, they spent a lot of time on the Mischling, first degree Mischling, second degree Mischling. What happens if a Mischling has married to somebody of German blood without children, with children? And so it goes on. And it took 90 minutes to seal the fate of the Jews of Europe, basically. And the meeting was then closed with Heydrich saying it’s a good job. He then invited Eichmann. We know this because of the Eichmann trial. He invited Muller, the head of the Gestapo, and Eichmann to have a drink with him, and he congratulated himself on a job well done. So that was the purpose of the Wannsee House Conference.

The purpose was, as it were, to lay down the problem, to change tactics. And of course, those tactics, they were already using gas at Chelmno. And Heydrich, in charge of the hold of the proceedings, it’s at this stage that all the experts are called in to create an industry of death. And what is absolutely extraordinary, if you read some of the reports of the men who are running the railways. They did it on ordinary German railways. What becomes important is fulfilling the quota from area to area, depending on your job. I mean, for example, when they were called in to establish the actual camps themselves, what did they think they were being asked to do? Of course, they knew what they were being asked to do. And also another point, many of Germany’s most important industrial companies, which go to this day were involved in slave labour. I mean, Auschwitz, the slave labour unit at Auschwitz, they were working for IG Farben. And so many big industrialists had their hearts desire. They had workers who they didn’t have to pay that in fact, they worked to death. And what is also extraordinary is who Albert Speer, who was in charge of armaments, managed to pass himself off at Nuremberg as the good Nazi.

So basically, what I’ve done is I’ve taken you into a completely upside down, insane world, where a group of people met together and decided how, not why because it’s been decided, the easiest, most efficient way of doing it. And I thought you’d probably be interested in knowing what happened to them, those individuals because a lot of them got away with it. Let me just find my right chart. I know this is a very, very tough lecture to receive. Believe me, it’s a horrible one to give as well. But I think we have to know because knowledge is important. Anyway, let’s start with, can we go back to the original chart if you don’t mind, Judi? Thank you. So let’s start with Otto Hofmann who worked for Himmler from the Race and Settlement Main Office. And his dates are 1891 to 1982. He was sentenced to 25 years, but was released in 1954. You’ve got to remember one of the problems with the Cold War at the end of the Second World War is so many ex-Nazis were used to run Germany. He actually became a clerk in Wurttemberg Dr. Rudolf Lange, he died in 1945, defending Poznan fortress against the Red Army.

He died fighting. Dr. Schongarth, lawyer, double doctorate. He was hanged. Josef Buhler, the Secretary of State of the General Government. He was turned over to the Poles, and he was hanged in Krakow. Roland Freisler, one of the most disgusting individuals imaginable. He was responsible for sentencing, at the time of the plot against Hitler in July 44, he was the one who humiliated all those generals, and of course, had them executed. He was president of the People’s Court. He was killed in a raid in 1945. He avoided justice in that way. Klopfer, step-state secretary to Martin Bormann’s Chancellery. This is very interesting because on the 2nd of February, 1978, there was a notice placed in an Ulm newspaper, “In memory of a man who passed away after a fulfilled life in the service of those in his sphere of influence.” That was signed by his wife, sister, four daughters, their husbands, and 19 grandchildren. Frederick Kritzinger, Prussian civil servant. He was a coordinator, not a policymaker. He died in 1947. He died of ill health. He actually apologised at his trial. Georg Leibbrandt, occupied Eastern territories. He was an academic radical. His dates are 1899 to 1982. He was interned between 45 and 49. The case was dismissed. He then went to America.

But basically, Simon Wiesenthal got onto him, and he was not allowed to work in America, but he had a great legal career. Luther, foreign office, it was his copy of the minutes that were discovered. He died in 1945. Erich Neumann, 1892 to 1948. He died, we’re not sure, sometime between 48 and 51. And there is a theory along with Wilhelm Stuckart that perhaps they were involved with the Mossad. I’m saying no more. So the point is, some of them died in their beds on SS pensions. Muller was executed. Lange was actually killed in battle. But the bulk of them, did they meet justice? It’s a fascinating point because how many of them, apart from the SS, actually shot anyone? Are they guilty? Yes, of course they’re guilty. They sat around a table. They planned, they put their master’s resources at the mercy of Heydrich. After Heydrich’s death, the operation was actually named Reinhard in honour of him. So let’s leave that terrible, terrible conference. Is it anything, what is the message? I want to finish on that poem of Leonard Cohen’s about Adolf Eichmann. “Colour of hair, brown, colour of eyes, brown, build, medium. What did you expect? Horns and talons?” So let’s see, let’s have a look at questions.

Q&A and Comments:

As I said to you, I thought long and hard as to whether really we should go so dark into the soul, but I think it’s so important today to understand this, if we can, to begin to understand. And I think it’s also very important in order to understand Jewish history and to understand the establishment of the state of Israel because I think the two events are so, so linked. And one thing I would say, without making any judgement whatsoever of any policy of the Israeli government. That’s not my brief and it’s not my, frankly, we will have our own views on that. But I do believe that this whole issue was so important to the founding fathers of Israel, that it seeped into the conscience of a nation. And I also wonder why there are more resolutions passed against Israel than any other country in the UN.

Q: Is it because Israel has a worse record of human rights than any other country in the world?

A: I think not. So what is it about? And am I left with that phrase of the great English Jewish writer, Howard Jacobson, “They can’t forgive us the Holocaust.”

Anyway, let’s have a look at the questions. And I promise you, next week, I’m going to look at rescuers. We need to remember the other side of the world, and let’s see what questions.

Yes, Romi is pointing out. It’s important on Yom HaShoah.

Q: “Where does the number 11 million come from?“

A: It comes from the list of the people that I have given you, the Jews who were alive, still alive in Nazi-occupied Europe, the Jews who were allied to Germany, and the Jews who were enemies of Germany. So that’s why you have the, Bulgaria is an ally. England is at war, islands at war, Italy, Croatia. That’s why, that’s where it comes from.

Q: "They included all Jew?”

A: Yes, Yogev. Yes, Robert. Estonia was designated as Judenfrei. Yes, that’s because they wiped them all out.

And this is from Robert. He says, “The last of the 75 year old Jewish community was murdered by the Nazis and Estonian collaborators. I’m looking for details of the Estonian collaborators for a gentile Estonian government official, and would like help. Please notify Judi who will contact me.” If anyone, there are some rather interesting books. But if anyone wants more help, can offer any help. I suggest also, you speak to the Wiesenthal Centre. There is Mark, I’ll remember his name in a minute. There’s a brilliant historian there.

Q: Freda. This is from Freda who gives us so much, gives me so much help. Thank you, Freda. “Do you think that the murder would be successful if not for the fact that IBM helped to plan it on their darkly primitive computer?”

A: Freda, it’s one of the components, isn’t it? This is modernity. If the Swedes wouldn’t stand still for the crematoriums, you see, and if Europe and the world would not be silent. You see, these are all stepping stones, aren’t they? Look, the Swedes became very rich. Neutral Sweden became very rich in the war. It’s a very complex. Why do people act as they do with Sweden? It was venality. IBM, venality. You get money for it, don’t you? Did they really know what they were doing? Yes, they probably did.

“Don’t forget Ford.” This is from Monica. Monica, yes, of course, the Ford, car company. Ford was up to his neck in pro-Nazi sympathies. He actually wrote a book himself called “The International Jew.”

This is from Alan Waldman. This is very, very disturbing. “Hitler committed no crimes,” statement by senior electorate, University of Cape Town today. David’s asked for the name of the lecturer. But Karen, but Max Liebermann, those of you who don’t know, he was one of the great artists of Weimar. Thank goodness he died before all of this, but he had a home a few doors away. His wife was deported.

This is from Mitzi. “Hitler always wanted to eliminate the Jews completely. He didn’t at first, though, thought he couldn’t get away with it. What convinced him otherwise was the lack of condemnation of his anti-Semitic act, actions by the world, including not only the Catholics, but every Protestant denomination. That continued even when the killings begin.” Mitzi, it’s a very, very complicated dark problem.

But certainly, the Evian Conference did give Hitler the nod, and Pius XII has a huge case to answer. In fact, we are very honoured that next Tuesday, David Rosen is coming in to talk about the Vatican. Judi is telling me I should say, show up.

Q: “How many Jews were allowed to leave Germany between Operation Barbarossa?”

A: A few hundred.

Q: “The Germans had no problems with bullets in Russia or the Ukraine?”

A: No, David. But they decided that they didn’t want to do it that way. It wasn’t sanitised enough. You see, one of the problems is alcohol. And they wanted to have an, they wanted to have, if you like a, you know, Hitler in his last letter from the bunker, this is the letter, Hitler’s last letter from the bunker. He refers to it. It’s absolutely extraordinary. Let me just quickly find it for you. Germany. I’m using the documents of the Yad Vashem. Let me just find it. Yeah. Yes. This is the letter he wrote on April the 29th, 1945. And he says at the end, I have further left no one in doubt that this time it will not only be millions of children of Europeans, of the Aryan peoples who were starved to death, not only millions of grown men who will suffer death, not only hundreds of thousands of women and children who will be burned and bomb to death without those who are really responsible having to atone for their crime even if by more humane means.“ And he’s talking about gassing. And he’s, at the end of the letter, "But before everything else, I call upon the leadership of the nation and those who follow it to observe the racial laws most carefully, to fight mercilessly against the poisoners of all the peoples of the world, international Jewry. Set down in Berlin, April the 29th.” You see, that’s the obsession.

Q: Phyllis Burke is saying, “Killing started with the invasion of Russia. What about the concentration camp?”

A: Phyllis, it’s very important. Of course, hundreds of thousands of people died in concentration camps, died in the ghettos of starvation, but what I’m talking about is a planned operation. There were camps, of course, there were. And if people died, so be it. That’s not the point. The point is this is about a written down plan with numbers to exterminate a people off the face of the earth, and it wasn’t just Jews, remember? The Roma had to die, but only if they’d mix their blood, but only if they’d mix their, but the beginning, if the Roma were pure, they were allowed to go free. It’s only if they dared to mix their blood with anyone else. But in the end, the Roma were murdered, and we know that Jehovah’s Witnesses were murdered. We know that homosexuals were murdered. There were lots of different categories of people that were murdered. But I think the only group, I’m quoting Wistrich here, “Birth was sentenced of death with the Jews.” This is again from Alan Waldman about the University of Cape Town. I have no knowledge of this, so I’m just repeating. “In a pre-recorded lecture shared online with first year political science students, a lecturer at the Department of Political Studies said, "Hitler committed no crime. All Hitler does was to do what white people have normally reserved for Black people.” Okay, I think there’s an awful lot. If that is exactly what he said, I really think there’s an awful lot of unpacking of information there that this man needs to study. You see, one of the problems, just because you are a professor, look, most of the people I talked about at Wannsee were incredibly well-educated. I said this to you many times, education is no bar to the most appalling behaviour.

Q: This is from Leila Levine. “Isn’t it ironic that Jews were accused of being communist by ruling the world?”

A: And Mr. Corbin says, “Jews have no sense of English irony.” We are the people of irony. Mr. Corbin has never laughed at Jewish humour.

Q: Susan Feldstein, “How many Jews were murdered by bullets?”

A: Anna has given the answer at 2,500,000. I’m not sure, Anna. There’s still doubt. We know 6 million died, and they keep on revising the numbers. You’ve got to remember, I said to you, the records were kept in them only in the East. Historians are now trying to work it out.

And this is from Sandra Baker. “Here in Canada, there’s been a 35-year effort to deport Helmut Oberlander with no end in sight. Oberland, who entered Canada by lying about his past, was a member of the notorious Nazi-killing squads in Ukraine and Russia. His lawyers argue he is too old and frail to deport.”

This is from Bev who’s saying, “My bubbee’s yahrzeit is tonight. Her three daughters, grandson, all extended family, murdered. May her memory be for a blessing.” Oh, yeah.

Q: “Did Roosevelt know?” Asks Carolyn Lee-Truman.

A: Ah, I’m giving a whole serious session on that. They had knowledge. Did they believe it? You know, we had radio broadcast, we had newspapers. Szmul Zygielbojm committed suicide to bring the world’s attention to it. There’s a minute silence in the House of Commons on December the 17th, 1942. The message that came from Gerhard Riegner of the World Jewish Congress, there is a plan to murder all the Jews at one fell blow. He was actually told this by a German industrialist who was sympathetic.

Q: Did the allies believe it?

A: There’s some ghastly stuff that came out of the foreign office. This was the work of the great late Martin Gilbert. There’s this incredible memo that wasn’t shredded. “This office spends too much time dealing with the wailing Jews.” It’s a very, very complicated question. Today, when we are told that there are massacres, that we’ve all got to, we know it’s true. We see it with our eyes in whatever machine we happen to be on. Nothing like this has ever happened before. We know that when the films of the liberation were shown in the cinemas, people were sick. They couldn’t cope. And yet, there had been information. You can give information. Is it received, and is it acted on? It certainly wasn’t acted on. One of the most heartbreaking interviews I ever saw was with Bomber Harris. He said, ‘cause Churchill did give the order to bomb the railway lines, this was found by Martin Gilbert. This is after the Hungarian Jews are attacked. It’s 44. He gives the order. It’s lost. Bomber Command never received the order. Who lost it? We don’t know. So there are so many stories.

This is from Karen. She’s reading the book by Ruta and Efraim Zuroff. Yes, of course, Efraim was on couple of weeks ago. Yes. You see, the Lithuanians, and she’s saying, “So many Lithuanians were complicit, and it’s not recognised.” It’s very complicated. I’m not in any way it exonerating. They felt themselves to be persecuted under the Soviets. They’re now free. And many of these characters are heroes to them because they were anti-Soviet. Look, can I have very, very dark humour? You need it when you spend too much time in this field. This whole issue of smashing statues of people who have hurt the Jews, well, Richard I has a statue outside near Parliament. One of the worst pogroms in Jewish history was in his reign. Think of all the churches that Patrick alluded to in his brilliant lecture on the image of the Jew in art. Are we going to go through the churches and smash all the stained glass windows that, what are we going to do with the Ukraine and Petliura and Khmelnytsky. They are national heroes of the Ukraine. Are we going to demand that the gospels be written? It’s a complicated story.

This is from Bev. “The moral and ethical questions, particularly those without answers are so important. We have to continue to ask. Perhaps there is a preventative element in doing so, keeping the questions alive.” You see, for me, what I’m fascinated with, and of course, how do you get answers to this, is moral conscience innate or is it an acquired characteristic? One of Hitler’s most fascinating comments, I’ve told you this before, “I can never forgive the Jews for inventing moral conscience.” Of course they didn’t, but he believed that. The inner circle of the Nazis wanted a different kind of world, a world of blood and race, a world where might is right, a fewer principle. It’s not about good and evil, it’s about what is right for the Germans is good. And how do you take away any instinct of good from a people? How quickly does civilization come to the pits? And as I said, to me, the most important element to study is the high level of education amongst the perpetrators. We always kid ourselves that if we educate people to a certain level, we will decide, we will create this wonderful world. This was the ideas of the enlightenment. I remember one of my last discussions with Robert Wistrich, tragically, he died in 2014. He actually said to me, “Get a grip. The enlightenment was a blip. Get used to it lights.” I don’t want to believe that. I want to believe that one day we will come up with a formula where we believe it’s in our best interests to live in a certain way.

And this is from Gordon, “My father’s immediate family and his extended family when Lithuania were wiped out.”

And Karen is saying, “An hours and hours of surely, eyewitness accounts.” Yeah, I mean this is personal. This is the problem. When we are dealing with an international Jewish audience, it’s personal. And I think that’s one of the problems. And I was quoting George Steiner the other day, and when he said, “Jewish parents hold their grandchildren too close or their children too close because of all the people who couldn’t.”

Gordon says, “The Lithuanians were worse than the Nazi.” Well, remember something, Gordon, it was the Nazi killing machine that allowed it to happen. The Nazis were crossed with the Lithuanians and the Latvians and the Ukrainians because they weren’t doing it in a systematic order. That’s the problem. You see, there’s a difference between the blood lust of a most appalling pogrom and the actual sitting down by a bunch of academics and planning to murder 11 million people. How you’re going to do it? Not whether you’re going to do it, that’s already decided. How you’re going to do it?

Q: “Why was it the Hungarian Jew was not attacked until 1944?”

A: Margaret, that’s a huge question. I will be lecturing on it. You see, one of the problems with lockdown is we’ve been going for over a year, and I did talk about Hungarian Jewry, but I’m going to do it in a different way. Suffice to say, they were allied to Germany up until March, 44 when Admiral Horthy felt that the allies were going to win and tried to pull Hungary out, and that’s when the Nazis moved in to Hungary and following the German army went SS Commander Eichmann to begin, quote, unquote, “the final solution” in Hungary. And that is April, 1944. By which time, there had been so much evidence. Yes.

This is Jonathan. Jonathan’s pointing out that the Ukrainians were influenced by Stalin starvation policy and believed that the Jews were disproportionately involved. Yes, the Holodomor in Ukraine, where Stalin starved over 5 million peasant and farmers to death. And of course, because of the notion that so many Jews were communists, look, the reality is completely different. But a disproportionate number of the leadership originally were Jewish, but Stalin murdered most of them.

Q: Howard Golden, “Wasn’t the villa owned by a Jewish family?”

A: I don’t think so. I did check this out, and I can’t remember.

Q: Claude, “Can it be said that Heydrich convened the Wannsee Conference in part to assert his power and that of the SS?”

A: Yes. “Also, to make sure to implicate those other administrations?” No, not implication. You know, these characters, no, you are giving too much credence to the other organisations, no.

Q: This is from Romi. “How can we face the Western world today when they ignored our plight? They closed their doors to immigration and turned a blind eye. This is why Israel and Holocaust education is so important.”

A: I think one of the problems that we face is that, you know, it was wonderful that Wendy created this because what I’ve realised, having been speaking on it, I think over 300 lectures, can’t believe it, of modern Jewish history beginning with the, really, with the 1750s, is that, I can tell from your comments, you are a very well-educated group of people. You know an awful lot, but it does seem to me that we don’t know enough Jewish history. And certainly, having worked in Jewish education, Jewish history is not taught in Jewish schools in England, or if it is, it’s not taught well-enough. And I’m saying that advisedly, and I believe that’s true of many countries. And it was actually my son-in-law who said, “Why on earth don’t you, you know, who are closer to children than grandparents?” Maybe one of the things that would also help our kids when they go to school in university when they come up against antisemitism and grossly disproportionate criticism of Israel, and please, I’m not making any statements about Israeli policy. I’m talking about Israel’s right to exist. I really think that we can do something ourselves and we can start teaching our children and our grandchildren Jewish history. That’s my mishegas at the moment. Yes.

• [Wendy] Trudy, I’m so sorry, but I’m going to have to jump in and say thank you very much.

• Oh, it’s gone on, hasn’t it? Sorry.

• [Wendy] For a fabulous presentation, for a fabulously dark, very informative presentation. We are going to have to take a break now because we need to get ready for our next presentation. We’re very lucky.

• Okay. Thank you, Wendy.

• [Wendy] Thank you.

• And I think the next presentation sounds, it sounds absolutely fascinating.

• [Wendy] Yes. Well, you know what, Janet Suzman reached out to me, and you know, and spoke about her nephew, James.

• Yeah.

• [Wendy] And about him talking about his latest books. And of course, I knew gentleman was a little boy, only realised that afterwards, so-

• Oh, that’s fabulous.

• Yeah. So that’s really great. So we’re going to have him in an hour and a bit, and it’s very difficult to finish or to jump in and to switch different topic. It’s a shocking, it’s really, I really, I was just to reel back, just want to just reel back. I just want to say really, it is a, you know, today’s lecture is very dark, very disturbing.

• Yeah.

• [Wendy] When you have a look at the calibre of people who were involved, what the expectations, I mean, it’s truly shocking.

• I think one of the things though, Wendy, what you’ve enabled is that we are a group all over the world, and maybe together, we can come to some sort of resolution.

• [Wendy] Well, we keep saying we have to change the narrative, you know.

• Exactly. You are so right. You are so right. And I think as this evolves, we will be-

• [Wendy] That’s the challenge.

• This is our challenge.

• [Wendy] Yeah.

• And many of you still have questions, please don’t forget that we can answer them slowly in other presentations. And please, I know it’s Yom HaShoah, and I know how dark it’s been for all of you. Believe me, I’ve had a headache for three days. It’s terrible to have to give this kind of information to people one is fond of. We’ve created a sort of, almost a family here. But I do think knowledge is important, and I think with knowledge, we do become stronger. That’s my view. And Wendy, bless you for making it happen. And don’t forget though, on Sunday, we’re going to have such a glorious celebration. Yes? Yeah. Anyway-

• [Wendy] Thank you, Trudy.

• That is the Jewish way, isn’t it? Lots of love everybody. Bye.

• [Wendy] To be continued. Thanks a lot.

• Bye, darling.

• [Wendy] Yeah.

• [Judi] Bye. Bye-bye, everyone.