Trudy Gold
Resistance in the Ghettos, Part 1
Trudy Gold - Resistance in the Ghettos, Part 1
- Morning, Trude.
Hello, Wendy. How are you?
I was worrying ‘cause I could not jump on.
You look lovely, you okay?
Yeah, I’m good, thank you. So Trudy, first of all, before I hand over to you, I want to just say to everybody that next week, please, everybody, check your times on the agenda because we are changing the times a little bit to accommodate the clocks going forward or yeah, going forward.
They fall forward, don’t they?
Yeah, they went forward. And I already organised with Albie Sachs and I don’t want to start changing South Africa to nine o'clock at night so I’m going to keep it at 8:30 for next week. But from the following week, we’re going to go to half an hour later just to accommodate questions and timings. This clocks is a nuisance. And I’m also trying to accommodate all the different time zones from LA to New York, London and South Africa and Israel. That’s the first thing. And then before I hand over to you, Trudy, I just want to say on behalf of all of us, almost 12,000 participants, a very, very, very happy birthday for tomorrow.
Oh, Wendy! I’m too old to want to remember.
And to thank you, honestly, for bringing light to all our lives, knowledge and light and friendship and to being so much and an integral part of this Lockdown University.
Wendy, bless you.
So thank you, Trude.
Bless you, darling. You saved me from boredom.
Yeah, may you be blessed with good health and happiness and sunshine and-
Thank you.
Happy days ahead as we build our beautiful-
It’s been beautiful. It’s been such fun and it’s been beautiful. So everything you wish me, I wish you.
[Wendy] Thank you very much. And to all our participants. And then one last thing everybody, we wish you from Lockdown University, a happy Pesach. So thank you very much. Over to you. Thank you.
Thank you very much, Wendy. Am I on, Judy? Yeah.
Yes you. Yeah.
Thank you very much. Well, now that Wendy’s revealed a secret, I’m too old to want to remember. Welcome, everyone. And for this week and for my next session, which will be the week after next, I’m going to be concentrating on resistance in the ghettos. I’m focusing on the Warsaw ghetto, but I will be talking about other ghettos later on. I want to remind us all that we’re in a hell situation now and that how people react, I always remember what Anita said to me. When you’re in hell, please don’t pass judgement . Pass judgement on the perpetrators, but be very, very careful. And today, I’m not talking about physical resistance, but I will be talking about it next week and it’s Pesach coming up. And please don’t forget when we have our Seder and I find it fascinating 'cause it doesn’t matter how religious you are or not, if you are Jewish, you are usually around somebody’s Seder table. And unfortunately this year, we’re going to be zooming, but let us remember April the 19th, 1943, because that was the anniversary of the Warsaw ghetto physical uprising. And with the evil cruelty of the Nazis, they went for the last liquidation on Seder night. So, but before that, there’s a few people I want to draw to your attention, people that I regard as heroes.
And I will also be talking about non-Jewish heroes. There’s been a lot of complications with Poland. Something’s just happened where a Polish professor has been talking about the blood libel again. And the problem is there is still huge pain between the Jews and the Poles. And there is the rise of the right in Poland. And it’s an incredibly complicated situation. I think the reality is that the Poles still see themselves as the first victim of Nazism. And the other point to make, which is going to cause me an incredible amount of trouble, I really don’t know how I’m going to look at it with you. Even with the last great resistance in the ghetto, politically, the Jews were terribly divided, even when the majority of them had died and they made the decision to fight, you have the left and you have the revisionists. And after the war, the left was under the brilliant Mordechai Anielewicz, I’m going to be talking about, was given far more publicity than the right, Betar. And of course, followers of Jabotinsky led also by the brilliant Paweł Frenkiel. They were both terribly young. They both died when they were 23 years old. And why is it that we know so much about the left? Well, you’ve got to remember what happened in Poland after the war, communism took over.
And the point was, so the left and revolt. And when Israel was created, Israel was very much a left wing state and in the early months, had support from the Soviet Union. So the dream of the left wing resistance becomes all important. Now, it was incredibly brave, but what was also brave were the battalions under Paweł Frenkiel. And it’s only really, it was in 2007 that Moshe Arens wrote his famous book “Flags Over the Warsaw Ghetto” that really puts down the marker that they fought as well, and they fought brilliantly. And I think it also reflects, and Paso was a good time to think because it is the festival of freedom. I think what it does more than anything else is reflect the disunity in the Jewish world. And just imagine if we could agree on more things, what we could accomplish. But anyway, now let’s go into what I think is hero land. I’m going to first talk about the man I mentioned to you last week, Emanuel Ringelblum. His dates are 1900 to 1944. And if you remember, the joy of Emanuel Ringelblum was that he was a brilliant historian. He came from a very religious background and he also had a doctorate from the University of Warsaw. He was a left-wing Zionist, he was a member of Po'ale Tsiyon and he taught history in a Jewish high school. He’s one of the first of the Jewish historians who are taking Jewish history seriously as a discipline.
There’s Graetz, there’s Dubnow , now there’s Ringelblum and his colleagues around him. It’s very interesting because when I first went to university, you couldn’t study Jewish history as a discipline in the British University. It was only with Martin Gilbert’s brilliant work, and now there are a few faculties where you could study Jewish history, so it’s very much a new kind of science. Also, he went to work with The Joint. And The Joint, I should mention The Joint again because it’s so important. And it was an American philanthropic organisation that had been set up by cc Schiff back in 1915 originally to help with the Jews in Palestine. And by the '30s, they had a fortune of $200 million and it was a very important organisation and gave sucker to Jews all over Eastern Europe. And at this stage, before America enters the war, they could get money. The Joint were operators. I mean, I’ve worked with them in the Ukraine. It was very interesting, when we were teaching in the Ukraine, those of you who visited Ukraine will know that it’s quite in certain places, primitive.
And we felt, because we were using charity money, the only organisation we could really trust to dispense it was in fact, The Join and they were extraordinary, and they were even more extraordinary in this terrible time. So he went to Zbaszyn in 1938 for The Joint. And you will remember that Zbaszyn in 1938 after the Evian Conference, Hitler began expelling Jews, Polish Jews who were living in Germany. He was expelling them back to Poland. And these tragic people were caught in Zbaszyn on no man’s land, trying desperately. The Poles didn’t want them in. In fact, the Poles shot some of them. The Germans were shooting the other way. They were trying desperately to get papers to go anywhere. And he is sent by The Joint to investigate. He felt a huge responsibility, not just as a historian. Look, it was 1938. He was 38 years old. He was already married with a family and he saw the agony and it really, really made him dedicate himself to his people. And remember, in his capacity as a historian, he belongs to the new generation of Polish Jewish historians who are educated and they form themselves into a group. They’re also associated with YIVO, and of course YIVO exists, thank God, in America. And Ringelblum became an editor.
And his main field was the history of the Jews of Warsaw. I’ve spent quite a lot of time with you on the Jews of Warsaw because there were 378,000 of them. Well, I live in London, which has 250,000 Jews, and we manage about five newspapers. In Warsaw, there were 40 different newspapers. There was vibrant cultural life. We’ve discussed it, across the board. And he also was a member of Po'ale Tsiyon and he had a fascination for Yiddish culture. As far as he’s concerned, it is the culture of the Jewish people. By the time war breaks out, he’s a very famous historian and he has published over 126 scholarly articles. I think we have a picture of him with his son, don’t we, Judy?
So not on this schedule.
Oh, nevermind. Okay, sorry. Okay, so he had a one son. He was married, as I said. And he goes into the Warsaw Ghetto. When the Warsaw ghetto is established, of course, he and his family go into it and immediately, he’s got a strong personality, he gets involved in a Self-Help institute. You’ve got to remember that what is so extraordinary about the Warsaw Ghetto and in its height, there were nearly half a million people there because people were coming in from the countryside. And even after the deportations, more and more people were coming in. There’s lots of ways of keeping alive. There’s the physical way. But many of these young people, many people all over occupied Europe, and remember, occupied Europe is porous and there’s communication one to the other. And when I look at the physical resistance, you’ll find out just how much there was. They understood that if a people is trying to degrade you, starve you, make you feel absolutely like nothing, what you need to do is get in touch with your humanity. And how do you do that? You get involved in cultural events.
You think about what it means to be human. I mean, if you think about the Lockdown University itself, what’s it all about? We’re in a time of crisis. There were many people, including me, who were lonely. We didn’t know what to do with ourselves and Wendy has this brilliant idea, let’s bring everyone together, and look how it’s grown. It’s out of history, culture. Now obviously we are not living in such a terrible time, yet we’ve had a tricky time and we’ve turned to culture, haven’t we? We’ve turned to our culture. What happened in a much more ghastly circumstance, you have in the Warsaw ghetto, characters like Ringelblum, understanding the need to keep people’s souls alive. You know, even in the camps where the Nazis used to double the food rations on Yom Kippur, the rabbis tried, they were sponsor in the camps. Jeremy Rosen’s going to be talking about this later on in the course. But also, how do you keep people alive? How do you keep their souls alive through religiously, culturally, through all sorts of political organisations? And what he does is he establishes The Oneg Shabbat Archive and he becomes obsessed. He is going to keep up to date records on everything.
He is going to record the life of the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto all the way through the horrible times and as I said, right at the beginning when I began talking about Warsaw, Stroop, the evil one who destroyed the Warsaw Ghetto, he sent Hitler and Himmler 125-page dossier. We don’t know about the Warsaw ghetto from him. We know about it because of the work of Emanuel Ringelblum and his colleagues. So this goes on right up until his end. And he doesn’t die until 1944. He also, the humanitarian, he runs a soup kitchen for the desperately poor. Because in the Warsaw ghetto, you have the rich, you have the poor, you have the starving. And what he did, he promoted a whole group of volunteers to help with the growing desperation because look, 13 people to a room. In the end, the Russians cut to about 184 a day. How do you keep people’s souls alive? Well, this is how you do it. Tens of thousands of portions are dispensed every day. People feel good helping other people. His friend, Menahem Linder, he founded a Society for the Promotion of Yiddish Culture. He arranged lectures in all the ghettos. There was theatre productions. there were lectures, there were all sorts of cultural events. There were religious services, even though they were illegal. At first, he only had a small group of collaborators. He concentrated on testimonies and reports on Jews from the provinces because he wants to find out what’s going on in other parts of Poland.
People were smuggling themselves out of the ghetto. There were Jews hiding on the other side of the ghetto walls. There were people who helped bringing information in. I’m later going to mention a woman called Irena Sendler who came in to check on typhus epidemics. But bringing sucker, bringing medicine and bringing help. He has a huge circle of activists around him and what he does, his trick, which very few people ever managed to achieve, he managed to get groups across the political divide. Because as I said to you right at the beginning, even when they resisted, they couldn’t make their minds up which group to be with. But just think of the whole of the political spectrum of the Jews of Warsaw. From the completely religious, to those who had served in the Jewish block in the Parliament, all the way through to the ultra left and the ultra right, and also the non-political, those who wanted to put on plays, those who’ve given everything to theatre. There were plays in the Warsaw ghetto. When Jabotinsky died, Jabotinsky died in August, 1940. His supporters had commemoration services all over the ghetto, so life does go wrong. And this is Hersz Wasser.
This was a secretary and the only survivor of the team. “Every item, every article, be it long or short, has to pass through Dr. Ringelblum’s hands. For weeks and months, he spent the night pouring over the manuscripts, adding his comments and instructions.” And this is what he also says because he survived. During the last stages, he collected every document and piece of evidence in relation to the deportations and masked them are murders. And he passed, these go to the Polish Underground. It’s going to be the Polish Underground that’s going to send records to the Polish government in exile and that’s going to lead to the Allied Declaration of December the 17th, 1942 about the murders in Europe. Now, later on, when we go into that in more depth, and I’m going to do a whole session on it, it’s very important to remember that the Allies had incontrovertible evidence by the end of 1942. Polish jury in the main is wiped out in 1943. Hungarian jury is attacked in March, 1944. Now, we have to be careful because the Nazis and the Collaborators did it. But there is a huge question on why people didn’t help. And it’s for the first time through The Oneg Shabbat Archives that were smuggled out, the allies learn about helm when the death camps are established, and they also come into possession of the report on the great deportations and it comes from the Ringelblum archives.
It also issued a bulletin, a weekly bulletin in Yiddish, which enabled the underground to keep abreast of all the information. So you’ve got an extraordinary man, and it is the most extensive documentary source we have about real Jewish life under the Nazis. He kept the running record at first on a daily basis until July, 1942. That’s when you have the first huge deportation. And then on a weekly and a monthly basis, as things just become more and more impossible. It’s a diary, but it’s not just his diary. There are 136,000 different, there’s drawings in it, there is records of plays, it’s an extraordinary thing. And after the mass deportations, he no longer afforded the information, but instead dealt with the pressing issues of the time. Remember, he’s a historian. He’s a brilliant man. He’s trying to evaluate, he’s trying to evaluate what on earth is going on. And more and more, you begin to see the bitterness. He also composed biographical notes of many of the leading figures in the ghetto who’d been deported and murdered. The deportations begin, as I said, really begin, the big deportations in July, 1942. And from then on, he records the biographies of some of those who’ve been deported, who’d had huge lives. And he just wanted to keep a record because remember what the Nazis were up to. They were going to make Prague the centre of the story of what they wanted to be a dead civilization.
And by January, 1942, they’re going to be sitting down in the Wannsee Villa, 14 men, high ups are going to sit down and put the dots, they’re going to dot the Is and cross the Ts on what they called the Final Solution. And that’s going to be leaked. So it’s important to remember a lot of people knew. The question you have to ask yourself is did they believe? And if they did know, is there anything they could have done about it? And I suppose for me, and I’m speaking personally, I give much of my savage criticism to the Catholic Church because every little town, Poland’s Catholic, every little town had a priest or a bishop. And they were informed, the Vatican was the best informed vehicle in Europe. And yet, even in 1944, the Pope doesn’t mention the word Jew. David Rosen is going to give a session on the Vatican, and I intend to talk about it as well, because does moral leadership have a greater duty of care than any other kind of leadership, I think is a very important question. He also, and this is extraordinary, in the hell of the ghetto, he writes a lot about Polish-Jewish relationships.
And he doesn’t have his sources, remember. So he’s using his memory and he’s addressing huge questions because, you know, when the ghetto was established, Polish thugs went around beating up Jews. And for as many Jews as were being hidden on the Aryan side, many were being betrayed. So he’s tried and remember, Poland had been the heartland of the Jewish world really since the 1400s, so he’s having to deal with all these concepts. And in the end, it’s going to be given to Zoab, which is one of the great organisations of resistance. And in March, 1943, he actually accepted an invitation from the Aryan side, or I should say from the Polish side, with his wife and 13-year-old. It was Air of Pesach 1940. Just before, no beg your pardon. It was in March '43. Everyone knew something awful was happening and he’s one of the most famous historians in Poland. And members of the Polish resistance, they say, “Come. Come to us.” And he and his wife and son go into hiding on the Aryan side. But Aryan of Pesach 1943 for the great, when the uprising begins, he enters the ghetto and walked straight into the uprising. He was in a labour camp and he was actually rescued by members of the Polish Underground. It was a Polish man and a Jewish woman. There were some Jews working for the Underground, and they took him to Warsaw disguised as a railway worker.
So he misses the great, he’s not murdered in the uprising. And he and his wife and child with 30 other people, they continue writing in an underground refuge. And tragically, the hideout was discovered. Now he was hidden by Poles, so as I said, it’s a very complex, complex story. And they were all taken to prison. Again, skilled craftsman tried to persuade him to escape. And when he realised his family couldn’t escape with him, they were prepared to get him out, this Polish Underground team, but they couldn’t get his wife and child out, so he rejected the offer and he and his wife were shot in the spring of 1944. So an extraordinary man, and I’m going to read you something very hard-hitting. This is actually from the Diary of Emanuel Ringelblum. How he had the courage to write these things, I will never know. “The mother of someone killed in January.” This is 1943, “Hit a German in the street, then took poison. At the funeral for the small children from the Wolska Street orphanage, the children from the home placed the monument with the inscription, "To the children who have died from hunger,” from the children who are hungry. A police chief came to the apartment of a Jewish family and wanted to take things away. The woman cried out, she was a widow with a child. The chief said he would take nothing if she could guess which of his eyes was the artificial one.
She guessed the left eye. She was asked how he knew. “Because that one,” she answered, “has a human look.” A man came along with a pass. The watchman on Grabalska Street, took him into the guardroom. Tortured him for two hours, forced him to drink urine, have sexual relations with a gentile woman, then beat him over the head, then cleaned the wounds with a broom. The next day, they treated him humanely, gave him food and drink, took him to his destination on the way saying that Jews are people too. In the prayer house of Pietists from Braclow on Nowolipie Street, there’s a large sign. “Jews never despair.” The parties danced there with the same religious fervour as they did before the war. After prayers one day, a Jew danced, his daughter had died the day before. Death lies in every street. The children are no longer afraid of death. In one courtyard, the children played with the corpse.“ Now I know that’s appallingly hard-hitting, but I want you to, and probably you;re the wrong audience because so many of you are so involved. But it’s so important that we remember this particularly as we come up to Pesach, which is the festival of freedom.
He had the courage to write it. He had the courage to go back into the ghetto, and he could have been smuggled out again in the end but because he was on the area inside, remember, because they couldn’t save his wife and child, he decided to die. Now, as you all know, most of the records survived because they were buried in milk churns and one was found in '46, and another couple were found in 19, I think it was 52. And they are invaluable records of humanity, if you like. The fact that he did what he did, to me, he is an extraordinary hero. And because he recorded, I think it’s our duty, frankly, to learn these lessons. Where does his humanity come from? And how was it that those, because the people who treated the Jews so terribly were also people. How did humanity sink? What did the Nazis manage to do to quote Hugo Green when they reversed the 10 Commandments? And this is why I’m so glad that Wendy’s talking seriously about introducing more psychology into our courses because it is so important.
I can tell you the history, I can pose the questions, but it’s the only way I think that we’re going to go forward. And now I want to come on really to my greatest tale, Janusz Korczak, can we see his picture please? If you don’t mind, Judy, yeah, Janusz Korczak. That’s his pen name. His real name was Henryk Goldszmit. He was born on the 22nd of July, 1878. And he died in Treblinka in 1942. He was the greatest educator in the world. Let’s talk a little bit about him. He was born in Warsaw. His father was a lawyer. His mother came from Kalisz, both had Haskalah backgrounds, so that means they’re immersed in modern culture as well. His grandfather was a very famous physician. So in 1870 though, his father had a breakdown and died in a mental home. And he was 60 years in a mental home and that completely impoverished a family who were now, they were in very reduced circumstances, so they had to move. He was very bright, the young Goldszmit, and he earned money as a tutor.
After school, he tutored other students. He then went on to Warsaw University where he was torn between a literary career and a medical career. He later wrote writing his only words, "Medicine is Deed.” 1898, he entered the Jan Paderewski Literary Contest, remember, this is under Russian rules still and took the name Janusz Korczak after a figure from a popular book. Between 1898 and 1904, he studied both medicine and wrote for several Polish newspapers. He was a brilliant writer. As I said, another one of these Oliwia. And in his spare time, he taught the children of the poor. He had a huge social conscience. What makes some people turn to the light? That’s my question. In his spare time, he writes books. And the first book he wrote was “Street Children,” which gave a very realistic description of what it was like for poor kids on the streets of Warsaw, be they Jewish or be they Polish. He was the kind of socialist that Einstein was. He believed in social justice. He was not a dogmatic ideologue. Personally, I’m terrified of ideology because it’s too neat. I think one has to make one’s minds up personally about all sorts of things in different ways. He qualifies as a doctor in 1904. He decides to, he’s passionate about children, and he decides to specialise in paediatrics.
And he goes to work in the Warsaw Children’s Hospital. This is what he wrote. He was always an idealist. If you want to reform the world, you must reform education. And he writes, “Child of the Drawing Room.” He’s gradually becoming one of the most important writers in Poland. And in the Russia-Japanese war, if you remember 1905 to 1906, Russia goes to war against Japan. As though Nicholas II didn’t have enough problems, he gets involved in a terrible foreign war. How does it affect ordinary folk? Well, Goldszmit now has to go as a doctor to the front. It left an indelible stain. War is an abomination, especially because no one reports how many children are hungry, ill treated and left without protection. Before a nation goes to war, it should stop to think of the innocent children who will be injured, killed, or orphaned. No cause, no war is worth depriving children of their natural right to happiness. One must first think of the children before making revolutions. He goes off to Berlin between 1907 to '08 to study.
He meets Stefania Wilczynska, who’s going to become a very close associate of his when he goes to work for the orphan society. And he travels both to Paris and to London. He lived frugally, but he wants to increase his knowledge. And on his return, he wants to develop a much greater knowledge of child psychology. So he takes a position of supervisor of children’s camps. 1911 to '12, he’s the director of a Jewish children orphanage in Warsaw. His methods were absolutely revolutionary. He founded a child’s republic. Remember this is 1912. He’s working in an orphanage. What he does is he sets up a child’s republic. The children are going to have their own parliament, they’re going to have their own newspaper, and they are going to decide what is right for the group. And he gradually reduces his medical commitments. But he always keeps a few rich patients. He’s a brilliant doctor so that he can fund the things that he wants to do. Well, by the way, in World War I, he became a military doctor with the rank of lieutenant. And he charges the rich an incredible amount of money.
And also he did something absolutely revolutionary. He persuaded, he’s a famous writer remember, he persuades a relatively liberal Warsaw paper to take a children’s page. This is the first time any national newspaper, or rather any city newspaper, takes a children’s page. It becomes the most advanced in Europe. He becomes one of the most famous educators in the world, and he gives lectures all over the place. And as he wrote in 1912, education triumphed over medicine. And he said this, “A spoon of caster oil is no cure for poverty and sickness.” And basically he lived in the attic of the orphanage. He didn’t take a salary. What he earned, he earned from a few rich patients. Then of course, the war, he serves first in the Russian Army and then in the Polish Soviet war, he’s in Lodz, he’s in Warsaw. And then the wars are over. And remember, we’ve discussed that terrible time at the end of the First World War where Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland, all the infighting, the ravagement, the murders. But at the end of the war, he’s in independent Poland and he goes back to running his orphanage.
And he wrote his most important book during the war, and it’s called “How to Love a Child.” 1922, he establishes an orphanage for Catholic Children. 1923, he publishes his most famous children’s book, “King Matt the First.” Matt is a little prince who inherits the crown of a utopian kingdom. And he battles all the injustices of the world, especially those encrypted on children, becomes a huge bestseller. Another novel, “If I Were Small Again,” the story of a grown man who turns into a child. And then in 1926, he edits something called “The Little Review,” which is written by the children of the orphanage. Again, terribly important, this is the first time. These are kids now, kids from terribly deprived backgrounds. He’s giving them their pride. He’s showing them what’s possible. And in 1933, he’s awarded the Silver Cross by the Polish Academy. And he writes “The Rights for Children for the League of Nations.” This is the most famous educator in the world. Between 1934 and 1936, he visits Palestine and the Kibbutzim. He’s very interested in the children’s villages.
He’s very interested in how they dealt with children. But he comes back to Poland, I think a lot of them didn’t realise that Janusz Korczak was in fact a Jew and it caused an incredible amount of antisemitism and the Polish, particularly in the right wing Polish press. And as a result, it caused his estrangement from the Polish orphanage that he was working for. They didn’t want a Jew running it. And it’s at this stage that Stefania decides to go to Palestine, but he felt that he couldn’t, this is 1938. The situation in Poland was worsened for the Jews. Let’s forget what’s going on in Germany. The antisemitism was appalling, but he can’t leave his children and he’s developing his ideas. There’s a children’s court, there are children’s judges. And the other thing he would do, he would testify in the juvenile courts in Warsaw, defending destitute and abandoned children, Polish, Jewish, whatever, because the very right wing Polish government gave very, very long stretches to the children.
Now, obviously in the ghetto, when the Nazis invaded and the ghetto was established, because he’s the most famous educator in the world, he could have got out, but he decides he wouldn’t abandon his children. And he moves with them into the ghetto. And Stefania, there’s a new book out on women under the Nazis and Stefania, his assistant who was in Palestine, she comes back to Warsaw, to the ghetto, because she realises he needs her and they need the children. I mean, what unbelievable courage. Okay, she didn’t know about the Holocaust, but they knew it was bad and it was seriously bad. And as he said, “In the ghetto, I became a beggar for the most helpless.” He made the rounds from the rich from Adam Czerniaków, the leader of the Judenrat begging and begging for food. He took over a children’s refuge, a temporary hospital for sick and dying children. They got to die with dignity. It was the first ever children’s hospice of its kind. I mean, last time I told you about doctors monitoring the effects of starvation, this is the human condition at its best. He’s in hell, and he’s making sure that his children don’t really realise they’re in hell.
And when his followers, they can get him out to the area inside to the Polish side, he says, “You wouldn’t abandon your own child in sickness, misfortune, or danger. How can I leave my 200 orphans?” His growing despair makes him more and more anxious to leave a final testament. And we know this because it was saved on extrabat. He wrote this, “I’m angry with no one. I do not wish anyone evil. I’m unable to do so. I dunno how one can do it.” August the sixth. And it’s actually, this is the main reason that Czerniaków kills himself when he cannot save the children. And August the sixth, the German soldiers came to collect the children, 192 of them and a dozen members of staff to transport them to Treblinka. And I’m going to read you because there were descriptions and they’re absolutely, this is from a Polish woman who, Hanna Mortkowicz-Olczakowa, I hope I pronounced it properly. “The day was Wednesday, the 5th of August, 1942 in the morning. The gendarmes closed off the streets. The Ukrainian police surrounded the house. The Jewish policemen entered the courtyards. You see the Ukrainian police, the Jewish policeman, horrible scream, 'All Jews out,’ in German. And then in Yiddish, ‘Quickly, quickly.’
The efficient organisation for which the orphanage, thanks to Steffa, is well known can now be seen in operation. The children who surprised in the middle of their breakfast had their normal days routine upset at the moment’s notice, they descend quietly and in lines and five below. Miss Steffa and the doctor go down with the children without forgetting to take the green flag with them, the flag of the orphanage. We returned to the legend. It is long and many sided. There are many versions, all very descriptive of the last trip that was taken by the children of Yanosz Korczak. It is not a fact that many of the people who are in the ghetto at the time say that they saw Korczak walking at the head of the children on the way to the assembly place. The implication is that in those days, there was yet no fear, no panic, no terror of kidnapping or death. And spectators could just stand along the foot bar watching. According to eyewitnesses, the children were dressed in their holiday clothes as though they were going for a trip or for a holiday in the country.
Some say they wore their ordinary clothes, while others say they had blue knapsacks with them. Another version says that their arms were folded on their breasts. However, those who have personally seen a deportation day or have personally made their fearful way to a Nazi assembly place, park assure us that in those times were not particularly suited to special effect. Perhaps the common sense of Steffa who did not follow the good doctor in his illusions caused her to make sure that the children were wearing the best clothes possible when they set out on their long way. Somehow or other Korczak’s children were always distinguished from the general poverty around them, even on ordinary days, their clothing was clean and neat. That was why the impression made by the small, quiet, well-behaved group, which followed the doctor was pleasant. Yanosz Korczak walked at their head. We know that at the time he was weak and he had been ill. His feet were swollen and his heart was giving him trouble. I doubt whether he had the strength to carry two of his charges in his arms, even the tiniest ones, as the legend says. They were pulled, stopped, crowded together and pulled along in the burning heat of August accompanied by cruel cries and rifle-blows.
If Korczak really took some child with painful feet into his arms, it was probably the five-year old Romcia Stockman, daughter of two of his pupils, Rosa and Yosef, who had returned to work with him in the orphanage. It is possible that Korczak held the feverish, tired, sweating hands of two children, as they drummed with their little feet to his right and his left. Did Korczak tell them they were going for a picnic, to the country? We cannot know, but the terror, the fear of death and of deportation must have affected all of them, and it is very doubtful whether it was possible to delude them, at least the older children with fiction. Did they sing? Yes, for years before that, the little Jewish boys used to march in pairs with Janusz Korczak in the lead. Our eyes still see them walking slowly and quietly. The doctor’s companions in spirit, his travelling companions in their fateful journey. Stefania, Mr. Henryk Osterblum, the veteran bookkeeper of the home. Felix and Felix and Balbina Gzieb, Natzia Boz, Rosa Stockman, Sabina Leiserowicz, Dorka Solnicka, the four Moniushes, little Hanka with the lung trouble, Yolek who was ill, Abrasha of the burning eyes, who only a short time ago so successfully played a child about to die.” This was a play they had put on, believe it or not, he kept on putting on theatre productions. “And for you, the others, brave and courageous as these whom I have just mentioned, in your work for children, together with them in the ghetto and in death.
The teaching and medical staff in Dzielna, Dzagliona, Tvarda, Dzicka, Milna, thousands of children, hundreds of pedagogues and doctors, all of them anonymous and forgotten, your name and your symbol is the legend of Yanosz Korczak. To the accompaniment of the green waving flag they will go on to eternity in all time and in all countries of the world from the scaffold of the ghetto and from the smoking crematoria of Treblinka, they travel on their way to eternity.” Extraordinary, an extraordinary description by a Polish woman and the legend of Korczak that goes on but that man who could have escaped so many times who trailed in the ghetto to keep the souls of the children bright. And for me, he is an extraordinary hero. Now what I’m going to do now, I’m going to be continuing next time I speak to you, which I think is the week after next with the heroes of the ghetto and the rescuers. But I want to show you an extract now of Lwow, Lviv, Lemberg. Lemberg was a city in Poland. Now it’s in the Ukraine. There were two, I think it was a third of the city was Jewish. It was in Poland after the partitions.
There’ve been terrible in fighting. Thousands of Jews have been murdered. And this is, again, Gutman coming back to Poland in the spring and summer of 1939. And this is the shots we have of Lemberg. And the next one I will be showing you, the last one will be the Irish dock. If we can get to the right spot. And I must think, no, we’ve done Vilna, Jude, we’ve got to go all the way on now, I think. Oh, about 28. Let go a little further. Yes, this is Lemberg. We haven’t got the beginning, but I think you should see it. Can we put it on now? Okay, thanks Jude. Okay, Judy. Have we stopped, Jude?
[Jude] No, we’ve stopped ‘cause you said to stop the film.
Yeah, yeah, stop the film now, please.
[Jude] I stopped the film, Trudy, you can continue.
Yes, can we stop it now? And then I’d like to, because I’ve got a lot of questions. There’s something I want to say. If you read the end, it became part of the Soviet Ukraine when the Nazis invaded. And when the killings begun, it was actually the Ukrainians in the main who were responsible for the murder of the Jews. It’s one of the areas that I know that last night it was discussed, but it quite often it was the native population under the control of the Germans, but not always under the control. There are actually notes back by the German, by the SS to head office in Berlin saying that the Ukrainians, the Latvians, and the Lithuanians were overzealous. They wanted to kill them all, but they did it in a very haphazard way. So again, you are looking at the reversal of the 10 Commandments. I can see a lot of questions, excuse my hand, but my thing is at the top so let’s have a look. All right, nice happy birthday greetings. Thank you so much. Thank you, let’s get to the questions. Thank you all so much. And people wishing each other Happy Passover. Lots of lovely nice things said. Let’s see what questions?
Q&A and Comments:
Oh, this is from Frida, I must read it. Happy Birthday and also tomorrow celebrating with my twin sister’s birthday. Can you imagine what it means to survivors with two children? Wonderful, wonderful.
This is Pincus. “I was in the Warsaw Ghetto on the 19th in a bunker, 11 years old when the uprising started. Every year at the Seder, I’m in the bunker with 150 people praying for deliverance, but at the same time, celebrating the Seder with wine, never forgetting who we are in our spiritual strength.” Oh, Pincus thank you so much for that. Yeah, yeah. And I hope you’ve gone on to have a good life, because that’s the best revenge.
This is from Vivian. “My beloved mom, Tamar was smuggled out of the Warsaw ghetto in 1941. Her mother, my grandmother, Jasia, a girl for whom I’m named was shot at a selection on March the 18th, 1941. Her father, my grandfather, Solomon, known as Shoma, actively fought in the Bund and was charged with a specific mission and was killed after that.” Thank you. We are estranged people, aren’t we?
And Isaiah Berlin said, “We are the people of memory. Any people who go against us, their name will be excreted forever.”
And this is from Hin. “I remember when as a teenager, Ziviola Beckin, one of the main heroines came to Toronto to lecture in Yiddish, which was the language he spoke well at the time. And talking about the parties and my mentor, what a wonderful memory.”
There is a Department of Jewish studying, yes.
Q: Why would Jews coming from the outside to the ghetto when condition was so terrible?
A: They were pushed into the ghetto from the countryside. That’s the point. This is the stage in the beginnings when the Germans want concentration, they haven’t actually decided exactly what they’re going to do with them. Of course, Jews are dying of starvation, they’re being shot but the final solution, the plan begins with the invasion of Russia. And you’ve got to remember you didn’t have choices. But I want you to know it’s poorest, particularly in terms of information. This is important.
Yes, this is from Anna. “Excellent documentary film who will write our history.” Yes, and it’s on Prime. There’s a lot of good films on Prime. I really suggest you actually tip, if you go to the menu and you put in Warsaw Ghetto, there’s quite a few interesting films.
I’m having so many nice messages. Thank you so much. It’s kept me sane.
This is what, and Anna’s pointing out, yes, of course, this is spiritual resistance. Thank you so much.
Q: What happened to Ringelblum’s son?
A: Yes, unfortunately his son was murdered too. So I like to mention names.
This is from Katia, oh, thank you, Katia. “Please mention that today is the anniversary of the first deportations from Slovakia, the 25th of March, 1000 single girls between the ages of 15 and 23. It’s commemorated at the Poprad-Tatry railway station for the past 15 years. And an inter domination group reads every year, they were the first Jewish inmates of Auschwitz, thank you.” Now this is very important. And not only that, but the Slovaks actually gave the Germans money to deport their Jews. And it was Jewish women, Jewish girls. Thank you for that Katia. And you know we are going to be talking more about what you’re going to do.
This is Jeffrey, “My friend’s uncle Atur Zygielbojm committed suicide because no one would listen.” Jeffrey, I’m going to be talking about Schmuel Zygielbojm. He was very, very important. He was in the Bund. Do you remember I mentioned, when I talked about the Judenrat, he was one of the first members of the Judenrat. He managed to escape. He came to London and he committed suicide to bring the world’s attention to what was happening to the Jews of Warsaw. He committed suicide in May, 1943 after the ghetto uprising had been squashed. He actually said, “My comrades died in the ghetto. I didn’t have the honour to die with them, but I’m taking my life to bring the world’s attention.” And tragically, they still didn’t do anything.
Q: What was Janusz Korczak real name?
A: It was Henryk Goldszmit.
Ring Blue Archive, yes, it is the subject of the film, “Who Will Write Our History.” And there is a brilliant book, “Voices from the Warsaw Ghetto” as well, “Introduction” by David Roskies, which also deals with the archive.
And Daphne is talking about the Diary of Mary Burg, which records young girls experiences in the ghetto, not unlike Anne Frank. And you’ll recommended that, thank you.
Q: What book would you recommend about this amazing man, Janusz Korczak?
A: You know what I like is a little book called “Voice for the Child,” which are his words actually. There’s a film, I can’t remember the name of it, made by Andrzej Wajda, the famous Polish film director. He made a film on on Janusz Korczak. I’m not sure whether it’s called Korczak. But if you go online, you’ll find out. He made some interesting films on Polish-Jewish relations.
You talk about Poland, I met Andrzej Wajda because my close friend Felix Shaf, who I’ve mentioned, and I know some of you know him. He, after the war got, he was actually involved in the setting up of the Polish cultural centre in Krakow Polish-Jewish cultural centre in Krakow. And I was with Felic at the Collegium MYAS, the university he wasn’t allowed to go to, to do his PhD. That’s what saved his life. And I met Andrzej Wajda there, all the Polish intellectuals turned up for the opening of the Centre for Polish-Jewish culture. It was bizarre. And they listened to Canter Bensey Miller. I really, and I dunno if my friend Lionel’s listening, because he used to run tours with us in Poland, and he always used to say, “You’ve got to suspend your critical faculties and just let it come to you.” It’s like when we went to the university and met all these young people studying Jewish music. I was told we lost a lot when we lost our Jews. And a friend of mine said, “When I lose something, I go out and find it.” There are so many layers.
Ah, yes, at the two, this is from Miriam, “At the 2017 Venice Biennale, the Polish Pavilion was represented by American artist Sharon Locke’s 'Little Review’ a project inspired by Janusz Korczak’s approach to children’s right. A deeply moving installation.” Yes, I haven’t seen it, but I know that he is so inspirational.
And Lynn saying she remembers it and Michael’s saying what incredible… Yes, they have incredible courage. I’m having lovely birthday things.
Q: Is Lemberg Lwow?
A: Yes, Lemberg, Lviv, Lwow. It’s the same city. Kept on changing hands that’s like kept on changing names. Lviv in Polish, yeah. A third of the city, Jewish. Yes, “East West Street.” Yes, and I’ll give you forward notice.
Wendy and I are very excited that Philippe Sand is coming in in May. And I’ll be talking to him about his new book, obviously, but also I will ask him about “East West Street.” It’s very interesting.
Oh, this is from Jackie Sheldon, who I know. And she said, “My aunt Dr. Helena Sternlicht and our brother, Dr. Moesch Ansfield died in the Warsaw Ghetto.” Yes, we put their names down, we remember.
This is from Madeline. “As part of my training for my doctorate, I worked as a psychotherapist for survivors of the Holocaust. I’ve never been more impressed by human resilience and determination to society and their desire to reconstruct their lives again. The second generation, despite many difficulties, became leaders in their fields of medicine and law. They carried on the tradition of learning that Hitler denied their parents.” It’s a lovely, lovely comment.
I love Hersch Lauterpacht and Raphael Lemkin Yes, of course. Now they’re going to be very important in the story. They’re both international lawyers. It was Lemkin, they lost their families. It was Lemkin who came out with the whole notion of the word genocide, he invented the word. I’ll ask Philippe Sand to tell that story. And if you haven’t read “East West Street,” I really recommend it. And as I said, he’s coming in, I think early May.
Janusz Korczak is as Janusz Korczak as in Charming. How to Love a charm.
Yes, I mentioned that, thank you. My Polish pronunciation is bad. When I used to teach in Poland, obviously in English, and they would giggle. I can’t do languages. I don’t know why I think there’s something wrong. A certain part of my brain is is a little bit stultified. Anita always laughs at me.
In the Warsaw Cemetery, there’s a beautiful memorial, yes. The last trip we made to Poland with my partner who was, he was a strange character because he was the Yeshiva boy who finished at Oxford. And we actually, we said the prayers at the Janusz Korczak Memorial.
Lots of lovely tweets, oh, this is from Gloria. My family was in Lodz and only one lived after the war. I’m going to do a session on the Lodz Ghetto. And of course the very controversial figure of Chaim Rumkowski, yes. Chaim Rumkowski believed he could keep the ghetto going because they made uniforms for the German army. And he believed if he did everything the Germans said he would keep them alive. And it’s interesting, the Russians were a case from Lodz and there were 60,000 people. If they hadn’t delayed by the time they got there, there was only 700 and he’d already been deported. And if they’d made the push, would he have been a hero? And today he’s almost seen as a collaborator. So we have to talk about that.
Korczak produced the play in “The Post Office” by Tagore that has been translated into Polish to prepare the children for eternity, thank you. Obviously a lot of you know about Korczak. He’s so important. What an inspiration.
Whether you have sext sweat up into the ghetto, Are they specific? The Yevsektsiya were Russian. The Yevsektsiya were Jewish sections, that were created in the main by Jewish commissars to break down Jewish life in Russia. In Poland, the Polish, although the Polish government between 36 and 39 was desperately anti-Semitic, they never did that. The Yevsektsiya, they broke down, there were Christian sections that broke down Christian life, never forget that.
Having so many lovely, oh, my grandparents’ last known address during the war was in Warsaw nine. Yes, there was a post office in the Warsaw Ghetto. Oh, the cruelty of it all.
No, and this is from Rona. No, I don’t, and she’s asked about information where Nazis load the children with Sinai. Can you know, I don’t know about that. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
And Barbara is saying there’s an excellent site, C-R-A-R-G concentrating on Poland found lots of her family information. Yes, of course, and I’ve mentioned “East West Street.”
I dunno what you’ve done, I dunno what you’ve done, Wendy. I have never ever had so many birthday greetings. The question is, at my age, do I need them?
It was a lovely one from Ingrid. Lockdown would’ve been worse without you, you have no idea how bad it would’ve been for me if Wendy hadn’t phoned me. I think I would’ve driven my children crazy.
Yes, somebody else is talking about “East West Street.” Yes, I think watch out for when Phillipe Sand comes in. And this is from Lilly, many non-Jews saved, yes.
The film “The Zookeeper’s Wife.” Yes, there are more Poles honoured in the avenue of the righteous in AEM than any other nation. But then it was the largest Jewish community in the world. I beg pardon, in Europe. America was larger by then. Go on, tell me, I don’t know.
Oh, this is from Norma. I’d like to recommend the “Book of Air” by Jim Shepherd. It’s written in the voice of an eight-year-old boy in the Warsaw Ghetto who ends up with Janusz Korczak in the orphanage. Jim Shepard is not Jewish, but he is appropriate the voice of Aaron. Thank you for that, Norma, the book of Aaron, she’s recommending.
And Adele, “The Light of Days,” “The Untold Story of Women’s Resistance Fighters in Hitler’s.” Get it? Yes.
Judy Battalion, yes, we’re onto that. I’m trying to get in touch with her. And thank you.
One of the things that I love about all of you, you send information in and we are trying to contact her because her book, “The Untold Story of Women’s Resistance Fighters.”
Yes, because women were incredibly active in the resistance and something else, if a woman looked Darian, it was much easier for her to get away with it than a man because of circumcision.
Vi’s film was called Janusz Korczak, thank you. Look for it.
My grandparents, Louis and Martha, this is from Vivian Harris, last known address during the was was the Lodz Ghetto. I couldn’t believe how emotional I felt at their last address. My other grandmother, Ida, was murdered in Treblinka. When it’s possible for people to travel, it’s so interesting to visit the Ringer Blue Archive, the orphanage, the villa. Yes, it’s very harrowing. And I’d mentioned before the museum in Warsaw, Poland is wonderful, but on the other hand, you have a hugely nationalistic upwards swing in Poland, which is quite problematic as far as I’m concerned.
Yes, this is from Laurie. It’s a 1990 film by Andrzej Wajda, shot in black and white. It was screened out of a competition at the Cannes Film Festival. Thank you, Laurie. I don’t know, I’ve never seen it online, so I don’t know. But if it’s possible to get hold of it, it’s really worth looking at. Oh, it is. Thank you, Laurie.
Oh, I love this group. It’s Prime Video, “Karski and the Lords of Humanity.” The film tells the story of Jan Karski, the Polish underwriter.
Yes, he’s someone else I’m going to talk about, Jan Karski, who worked for the Polish Underground and smuggled himself into the Warsaw Ghetto. There’s so many areas to talk about.
Mr. Doc, this is Bridgette, “Mr. Doctor” by Ann Press in Toronto his excellent children’s book about Korczak. More and more thank yous.
This is from Linda and Sydney who went to the Korczak Orphanage a few years ago. “Mila 18” by Leon Uris. Yes, Leon Uris. I like Leon Uris’s work. I like “Exodus” and “Mila 18” is unbeliev… I read it when I was very young and it made such an impression on me. Leon Uris got a medal for a tourist, a medal of tourism from Israel because it said that more people visited Israel after reading “Exodus” and watching the film than anything else. And in fact, I was interviewing the Israeli ambassador to London. I think, oh, my brain is gone. Carly interviewed her for Wendy one evening and he said it was the figure of Ari Ben-Canaan in “Exodus” that turned him into a Zionist. I think it was me falling in love with Paul Newman as Ari Ben-Canaan at 11 that made me a Zionist.
And this is from Tony. I’ve spent a large park of lockdown working on my family tree. This has been coupled with learning surprises me. Ancestry.com has been able to give me the street to death address it, which my direct great parents lived. I’m looking forward to a descendants road trip. He wishes me happy birthday. Thank you. So this is good because it shows you what you can find out.
This is from Rochelle. My mother was a survivor of the Vilna Ghetto and of Bergen-Belsen. She lived to be 88 and she spent time educating non-Jews who were members of the Salvation Army. She gave everybody a copy of Eel’s book night and she signed everybody’s copy. She was a hero. She got her ultimate Hitler revenge by living to be 88 and educating others.
This is from Rochelle culture in Toronto. Wonderful, wonderful resilience. And of course . And I know that David Pima will be giving a presentation on his work, and we have other plans. I believe Wendy’s got other plan.
Q: Do I have any information about Brody?
A: Not specifically, but there’s a lot to tell. I have a relative who came from Brody.
Thank you, Helen, lovely, thanks.
Oh, this is Barrington. He’s saying that the people should be compelled to listen to us like a speed awareness called it.
Q: How did the Roman Catholic Church aid in helping Nazis escape after the war?
A: Oh, you’ve just asked a question that I will be spending a whole session on. There was a man called Alois Karl Hudal who was an Austrian bishop in Rome. And he was the man who got most of the Nazis out like Eichman and Mangele and I will spend a whole session on them. But Phillipe Sands will refer to him when he talks about his new book.
And this is from Cynthia. There’s a prominent family in Venezuela named Zygielbojm. I wonder if they’re relatives. I don’t know, I don’t know. It’s definitely worth finding out.
Q: Can you recommend someone to organise a Jewish tour in Poland or Lithuania?
A: t’s a long time since we’ve been there. I know someone who can, but he’s a friend of Wendy’s with, we’re going to talk about it, but we’ve got to wait till lockdowns over. The director of the Polish Museum came to Toronto.
This is Merna, and I asked if he knew of Nell’s history. He said yes, but he stopped too soon. Sometime at that moment I wasn’t impressed. I don’t know any of the directors, but I know the brilliant historian who’s Jewish. Anthony Polanski, who was responsible for the modern history. And he’s a brilliant historian.
Can I say something and also pronounce properly the name of Korczak? Yes, can we unmute Frida, please? Do you mind unmuting Frida. Can we do that, Judy? Judy?
Gimme a second.
Okay, Judy?
Is it possible, you know how bad I’m on technology.
Gimme a sec.
Because I wanted her to tell me how to pronounce it right. I want to talk to Frida–
[Judy] Right, Frida, can you unmute yourself?
Am I on mute? I am unmute.
You’re unmute, Frida. Go ahead.
Frida, before you start, can you pronounce Korczak properly, please?
Janusz.
Janusz.
Korczak.
Korczak. Thank you.
[Frida] Omit R, it’s just because it’s C is Korczak.
Thank you.
Korczak.
What are you going to ask?
[Frida] Because people ask many questions about Korczak and I am quite knowledgeable about this. Also my grandfather was shot at the day that Korczak children and him were taken so travelling something special for me. But he defended his family. But for people who are really interesting about Korczak and the research that is done about his work, friend of mine, Roman Ruskilesnky, ex professor of university in University of Theology, but very knowledgeable in history, and the son of a person who worked with Korczak in the house, his father survived because that day Korczak asked him to do something to, administrative work in the town. When he come back, the windows were open, the wind was going through the diary of Korczak. He later published and that how he survives. His son opened on Facebook, a site for Janusz Korczak, and nearly every day you have some news and some research, et cetera, et cetera.
Thank you. I love our group. Thank you, Frida.
[Frida] And if you are interested, I will put him in touch with you.
Thank you–
[Frida] I’m very grateful, thank you–
The whole group to hear that.
[Frida] Thank you very much.
This is an incredible group. I throw a question out and I always get answers, I love it. Now I’m going to have to go right to the, how much time have I got now? Is is Wendy there? How much time have I got? Sorry, what I’m doing, but I’ve got a, I work for an iPad.
This is from Dorian. Can we have a talk on Isaac Ochberg? Wendy has already been in touch with the filmmaker and I believe she is working out how that’s going to happen. Yes, that’s Isaac Ochberg who brought 180 Jewish orphans to South Africa. I think this was made by Paul Golden. And we were contacted by people and Wendy has followed that up, definitely.
This is from Tracy. “My daughter lives in Reha Dubna now in Tel Aviv with her husband.” It’s not, he is remembered. Yes, yes, that’s wonderful.
And this is from Vivian Harris. “The Tebar Institute organises very good guides, including a long visit to Treblinka.”
This is from Rosemary. “The first book I read about the Holocaust was The ‘War’ by John Hersey,” not the war. I think that’s it actually, Jude, Judy.
[Judy] Yes, I’m here. Thanks for– I think that’s it ‘cause I lost some of the questions in the middle. Anyway, may I wish you all hugs samir. and thank you so much for the birthday wishes. And I’m sure that one of these days, many of us will meet in person. So God bless and be safe over Pisa. And thank you again to Judy who does all the technology for me and keeps patience when I don’t.
[Judy] You’re welcome, Trudy. Happy birthday for tomorrow. I’m just trying to get Wendy back online, so just gimme one sec. I would sing, but I don’t want to turn anybody, I don’t really want to turn their computer off.
Okay.
[Wendy] Trudy, thank you for a fantastic presentation. Sorry, I’m on and offline. I just want to wish you once again for a very, very, very happy birthday. Nice to hear from Freda.
Yes.
Thank you.
And yeah, and to all of you, hug samir.
Hug samir to you, Wendy, and keep safe. Lots of love, everyone.
And to all of you, thanks. Bye.
Bye.