Trudy Gold
What Makes a Rescuer? The Case of John Rabe

Trudy Gold - What makes a Rescuer? The Case of John Rabe

- Thank you, Lauren. Okay, I decided that having talked with my colleagues, these are the days of awe. And it’s perhaps at this time when we have hopefully a little more time for reflection that we can look at the big issues. And what has always fascinated me ever since I became involved in Holocaust studies, bearing in mind that there were 700 million people in Europe, either in occupied Europe or in countries allied to Britain, or those occupied by the Nazis. But if you think about it, only 35,000 people have been honoured by Yad Vashem. So in a time of horror, when the Jewish people were so terribly threatened with extinction, there weren’t that many people who were prepared to rescue. And you take it further, because John Rabe, by the way, doesn’t rescue Jews. He is a member of the Nazi party who rescues Chinese. And that’s why in the days of awe, I thought it would be interesting in a way to look at a case outside our experience. But what we’ve decided to do is that from time to time, we will give presentations on different rescuers. And there’s three I always like to put together, but I’m taking Wendy’s advice to go slowly. And with John Rabe, who of course was a member of the Nazi party who saved Chinese, I want also to think about Sugihara, because the perpetrators in that case were Japanese. And I want to look at a Japanese rescuer, a man called Chiune Sugihara, who in fact was the Japanese consul in Lithuania.

And another person I want to look at is Dr. Fen Shan Ho, who was the Chinese consul in Vienna. Now, these are people from three different societies, three different walks of life. Two of them saved Jews. And the third, the one I’m going to concentrate on tonight, the member of the Nazi party who saved upwards of a quarter of a million people in the most terrible massacre in Nanjing. And before we get into this, I want to talk about China and the awareness of the Nanjing Massacre. Some of you may know that when I was involved with the International Task Force, we began teaching in China. And it all happened because a colleague of mine, Jerry Gotell, went to Hong Kong to Holocaust Memorial Day. The expat community, many of them were Jewish, they had borrowed some exhibits from the Sydney Museum, and they were telling the story of the Shoah. And about 1,000 Chinese a day were booked to come through. And I got an emergency phone call, do you know anyone who could go out there? And because Jerry was sort of peripatetic and he loved adventure, he said, if you prepare the worksheets, I’ll go. So he went, and there he met Professor Xu Xin. Professor Xu Xin was Professor of Jewish History at the University of Nanjing. And they were beginning to become interested in Holocaust studies. And it began like this because they wanted to know how the Jews as a people had dealt with the Holocaust, bearing in mind how the Chinese dealt with Nanjing. Because Xu Xin explained to us that in China, what happened in Nanjing, because upwards of 50,000 women were raped, some were murdered, some were forced into prostitution, they were known as the comfort women, and thousands of babies were born.

But Xu Xin explained to us, this was regarded as a shame in China. So consequently, it was all hushed up for many, many years. And it was really only in the past 30 years, when tragically, the victims, the survivors were no longer with us. Many of them, in fact, had committed suicide, huge instance of mental health problems, you can just imagine. They began to talk about it. And at first, they were looking for parallels in the Shoah. And gradually, this is what really led to an awful lot of work. And there are many faculties at Chinese universities where they study not just Jewish history, not just the Holocaust, but they even, they study about religion. Religion’s a problem. If we went to China to teach Judaism, we’d be a real problem. But if we went to China to teach Jewish history, there was no problem. But of course, this was under a more liberal regime. And we taught at about a dozen different universities and met an awful lot of students. Now, in Nanjing, where there is a memorial, John Raga, the house he lived in, has become a museum.

And he, of course, is considered a great hero in China. So is there anything that we, as I said to you, I think one of the most important points of studying rescue is what makes a rescuer. And I’ve been looking at various factors. There are many social scientists. There are many psychologists. There are many historians. We all grapple around with this because if you can work out what makes a person a rescuer, then perhaps you can change the world. You know that wonderful quote from the Talmud, he who saves a life, saves the whole world. And obviously, a lot of work has been done on various rescuers in different societies. And what, there are a few common factors. A high level of social responsibility, altruism, strong moral reasoning. They nearly all are risk-takers. You know, the risk-taking personality that doesn’t necessarily fare well in normal situations. They all had empathy. Now, ironically, it seems that the case studies show it’s less important than close relations with the people you’re rescuing. So with the Jews, it’s not necessarily they had a close relationship with Jews. It didn’t necessarily matter whether they’d actually seen the evil of Nazi brutality, although that does seem to be a case with certain people. And it’s certainly a case with Rabe. And sometimes they are directly asked for help, but more often than not, they give help anyway. And the other point that is fascinating, there seems it doesn’t matter about age.

It doesn’t matter about gender. It doesn’t matter whether they’re religious in any form or atheistic. Level of education made no difference, nor did social status or economic position in society. So none of the usual norms apply. It’s to do, it would seem, with the personality. And I keep on taking away this notion of risk-taking. But as I said, rescuers tragically are rare in our society. So anyway, let’s look at this character, John Rabe. As I said, doubly fascinating because he was a member of the Nazi party and he had huge admiration for Adolf Hitler. So he was born in, that’s his picture. He was born in Imperial Germany after unification, of course. He was born in Hamburg. Should we have a look at, let’s have a look at turn of the century Hamburg a bustling city. You can imagine it’s a port city. His father was a sea captain. He himself decided on a business career. He served as an apprentice for a merchant in Hamburg. And he was obviously a bit of an adventurer because he went to Africa for many years. And in 1908, he left for China where he worked for Siemens. Now Siemens had a huge, was one of the most important corporations in the world. And he worked for the Siemens Corporation in various cities. He worked for them in Shenyang, in Beijing, in Tiananjin, Shanghai, and later on in Nanjing. And can we have a picture of Nanjing please when he would have got there?

Yes, this is the Nanjing Expo of 1910. I’ve been to Nanjing and it’s an extraordinary city. Later on, I’m going to be giving presentations on, I think it’s the week after next, on the Radonites and the Jews of China because Nanjing was once a huge trading city and it was one of the old capitals of China. So it’s a very important city. So John Rabe goes there as working for the Siemens Corporation. And what did Siemens do in China, in Nanjing? They built telephone systems, turbines for power plants. They supplied the hospitals with equipment. Now, going back to Siemens, can we have a look at the next slide please? Yes, it’s founded by a man called Ernest Werner Siemens. And the von was actually added in 1888. He was born in Hanover. He’s really part of the incredible industrialization of Germany that happened from the middle of the 19th century onwards. So much so that under Bismarck, it’s going to become one of the most industrial powers in the world. He was an electrical engineer at a time when all these inventions, this is worshipping of science. He was an inventor, he was an industrialist and he was actually the founder of what becomes one of the greatest electrical and telecommunication giants in the world. Today, it’s the largest manufacturing company in Europe.

It actually today employs 375,000 people and generates the figures for, I checked the figures for 2017. It actually has a revenue of $83 billion a year. Now, and of course, during the Nazi period, think about the wartime economy, it dominates Siemens business and it also included, they’ve got a very bad record in the Shoah and it’s important to remember that John Rabe after he leaves Nanjing is going to go back to work for Siemens. So this is what I wanted you to take a picture of the complexity of individuals. So Siemens goes on to be very important in the wartime and they use force labour. They ran, they had a factory using inmates, believe it or not, victims from Auschwitz, from Buchenwald, Ravensbruck, Flossenburg. Ravensbruck of course was the woman’s camp and Mauthausen. Now, obviously I’ve studied a lot and the degree of cruelty, the dehumanisation of the victims is beyond horror. Now, it took a long time for Siemens to recognise or officially recognise its responsibility to within the Shoah. Now, it’s interesting because I’m sure many of you know that in the Nazi war crimes trials, many industrialists were put on trial and very few of them got any kind of sentences. And so, but as the century wore on, the 19th, 20th century wore on and particularly after the IRA was created and Germany had a very prominent part in that, that West Germany, there was more and more recognition. Never forget that many low grade Nazis and not so low grade were involved in running businesses in Germany after the war because the allies needed West Germany to bolster up against communism.

So, they are now contributors to the Jewish claims of the Claims Conference. They work closely with the memorial site at Ravensbruck and they actually send their trainees to work for a week at the historical site. And because, of course, they used female workers and these women worked on parts for the V1 and V2 rockets and you can imagine the terror that these women underwent. They were actually yoked together like oxen to pull giant rollers. This was the horror. And the general director at the time, can we see him, was a man called Rudolf Bingel. There you see the Siemens factory in the ‘30s, in the '20s and '30s. Very clean lines. That is Rudolf Bingel. He was the general director. He was a very close friend of Himmler. He profited enormously from the Aryanization programme because don’t forget from 1937 onwards, Jewish property was Aryanized, which meant, can you just imagine what that means? If you have a factory to sell, you, there’s no market. So as a result, Jewish entrepreneurs, Jewish businessmen, they virtually had to give their factories away and so much money was made by these ruthless industrialists and entrepreneurs and ordinary folk actually who took over Jewish property. But there’s an irony to this. In 2001, the company’s consumer arm actually filed with the United States patent office for, you’re not going to believe this, they were selling Zyklon B. There was such an outcry that it was withdrawn.

So basically, this is the company he works for and he’s never going to stop working for them. Can we go on to the next slide? Now, this is a little bit of Chinese history now. Now, between 1927 to 1929, Japanese troops are sent to China to obstruct the attempts of the Guomindang to unify the country. Now, this organisation was founded by Sun Yat-sen and it was the dominant party in China between 1928 and 1949. It was actually defeated in the Chinese Civil War and they retreated to Taiwan. Now, Sun Yat-sen, can we see him, please? Because he’s a fascinating character. His dates were 1866 to 1925 and he’s unique amongst Chinese figures because he was revered both in mainline China and in Taiwan. And this is what I’m coming to. He had a very interesting aide-de-camp who was his major general in the China National Revolutionary Party. Let’s see his face. The next slide. That is Moishe “Two-Gun” Cohen. Moishe Abraham Cohen, 1887 to 1970. He was Polish-born. He lived in Britain. He lived in Canada. He was an incredible adventurer. And as I said, he was the major general to the National Revolutionary Party. He lived to a ripe old age. And in fact, my friend and colleague Sandra Myers has already given a presentation on him about two years ago. And I think it’s about, if we can find it, it will be available for you. If not, I really think she should give another presentation because it’s fascinating.

There were quite a few Jewish adventurers involved in China. You can see he was one tough guy and he later on became the bodyguard for Shanghai Sheikh. So he’s an extraordinary character. So going back to our main character. In 1931, Siemens transfers Robert to Nanjing. And he’s the company senior representative in China. He’s got quite a high position. He’s married. He’s quite conscious of his important position. And so what he’s doing, he’s selling telephones and all sorts of electrical equipment to the Kuomintang. So he’s important to them. And the problem, but then things are happening in Japan. In 1932, the war party, the Japanese military effectively take control of the Japanese government. In 1933, Robert joins the Nazi party. He became head of the local branch in Nanjing. He went back to Germany in 1930. Occasionally goes back, but he joins the Nazi party and he’s head of the China branch. Now who would be in China? There would be all sorts of foreigners, either they’re for business because China was ripe for exploitation. That’s one of the problems that China has with the West. I mean, because of the work I’ve done in China, I’ve had lots of interesting conversations with Chinese officials and they really hated what they considered to be the exploitation of China. But above all, they hated missionaries. It’s a fascinating story.

Anyway, what then happens is in 1936, the Japanese and the Germans sign the Anti-Comintern Pact. This is to fight the spread of communism. And Italy joins in 1937. Can we see that slide, please? This is very important. Here you see the Japanese and the Germans. There’s Ribbentrop and the leader of the Japanese foreign minister signing. And there you see the three of them, the tripartite together. So the three nations, they are anti-communist. Now 1937, because the Japanese have aims, they have military aims in China and war breaks out. The Chinese are forced to evacuate Beijing and three months later, Shanghai falls. The Chinese forces withdraw Northwest towards their capital. Nanjing is their capital. So you have the Chinese forces have now regrouped in Nanjing. Now the foreign community and you have the Japanese on the march against them. There’s a city under siege and it’s terribly frightening. So the Chinese governor and much of the city escape, including most of the foreigners. Now Rabe is actually ordered out. He’s ordered out by Siemens. He sends his family out, but he decides to stay in the city and he becomes the leader of what was called the foreign. Can we see the next slide, please? This is the International Committee for the Safety Zone.

So several other foreign nationals, mainly German businessmen, and you see Rabe in the middle and American missionaries, doctors, a few doctors stay because they know that the Japanese are going to take Nanjing and what they decide to do is to establish a safety zone because the Chinese are fleeing and they establish a safety zone in their area and he is now head of the committee and you can see that he’s very proud of himself being head of the committee and he writes about it in his diary. And in the western district of the city, in an area of about seven square kilometres, they opened 25 hostels and they’re all located mainly in the foreign embassies and also at the University of Nanjing. Now, can we see the next slide, please? That’s Ma Chaochun. He is the mayor of the city and on the 1st of December, 1937, the mayor and all his staff get out, they evacuate and he authorises the international committee which is headed up by Rabe to take over the running of the city and basically he and all his colleagues escape, they run away and they tell all the remaining citizens and there are hundreds of them, Nanjing is a huge city, there are hundreds of thousands of people and they advise them to actually get into the foreigners zone that the foreigners will protect them. The Japanese ground assault begins, it begins on the 10th of December and the Chinese troops that are assigned to defend Nanjing, they refuse to withdraw and it takes Nanjing three days to fall and this is when the Japanese troops begin an absolute bloodbath.

It’s very difficult to get accurate figures. Rabe and the other members of the committee, they meet the Japanese high command, they explain the safety zone and they insist that it be respected. Now, that took up a lot of courage because this is a Japanese army caught up in a sort of bloodlust and the figures for the murders in Nanjing, depending on who you deal with, it’s between 200,000 and 300,000 Chinese civilians and surrendered soldiers. Now, the Japanese go on the rampage. You know, it’s fascinating because ironically, when you’re dealing with the Shoah and the Nazis, the Germans in the main, their murdering was in a very cold methodological way, even the shooting processes. If you look at the people who went on the rampage, it tended to be the fascist Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Latvians, etc. This is the Japanese army out of control and as I said, they subject Chinese civilians to the most appalling savagery, torture and death. It’s a terrible, terrible black period and it goes on for six weeks. And of course, this makes it very, very different from the Shoah. I’m not in any way comparing horror here but one of the things that we had to establish with the Chinese when we began with the Chinese educators is that they shouldn’t see it as the same as the Shoah because I really do believe you have to look at motivation.

And this is an army out of control, looting, pillaging and raping. And women of all ages from small, very young girls all the way through to the elderly. And after many of these appalling ordeals, they actually murder the women. Now, what happens is about 250,000 Chinese actually managed to find refuge in the safety zone and the Japanese then demand that the Chinese soldiers who are hidden amongst them be handed over. And on several occasions, the Japanese army actually enters the safety zone and Rabe and his colleagues actually attempt to stop it. And they attempt to halt the atrocities ensuring that those who have made it to the safety zone are fed and nursed. And it’s at this stage that they petition governments to intervene and Rabe begins to document the evidence for the world media. And but what he did was he used his Nazi credentials. Remember, this man is a member of the Nazi party. So he uses his credentials. If you think about it, the Comintern pact and he actually later on, he’s going to write to Adolf Hitler and he reports the actions of the Japanese to the Japanese embassy. And also in his diary, he does report the horrors of the day. 1,200 pages. It was forgotten until after World War II but later resurfaced as the real evidence at what had happened. And as I said, it’s estimated that he and the committee saved about 250,000 people. Now, can we go on please? Yes, this is now, why did he do it? These are extracts from his diary. “What a wretched sight. I am so tired of just watching their torment especially the women and the children weak in their mother’s arms.”

His diary of the 17th of October. “You want to know what we’re still doing here. At such a time, a man tries to behave decently and doesn’t want to leave employees under his charge.” Remember, he was a big employer in Nanjing. People worked for him “or the rest of his servants and their families but to stand by them, it’s the obvious thing to do.” Now, this is quite extraordinary. Remember, he’s a member of the Nazi party. He writes to Hitler, “I continue to hope that Hitler will help us. He is a man of firm will and steady eye, the same as you and I. He has deep sympathy not only for the distress of his own people but for the anguish of the Chinese as well.” In other parts of his writings, he really writes about how Hitler has been a saviour for the German people. Remember, he’s hardly ever in Germany but when he was there, he joined the Nazi party in 1933. He knew exactly what had gone on in Weimar, the collapse of the currency. He was a conservative kind of type. He loathed the street fighting, the communism. He was terrified of all of that and along comes the big strong man who can help. Now, can we go on, please? No, sorry, can you go back? I beg your pardon. Okay, now on the 28th of February, the massacre is over.

He leaves Nanjing for Shanghai. He returns to Berlin in April 1938. This is a month after the Anschluss. This is very much when Hitler is riding the great cloud. You know, he is the saviour of Germany and he takes with him a large number of source materials documenting the atrocities. He’s documented, he has films, he has photographs and he begins to lecture. He wants the Germans who he is friendly with, friends of his, other colleagues at Siemens to know what has gone on in Germany, which has gone on in China. Now, this is absolutely fascinating. He’s now in Berlin and as I said to you, he’s written a letter to Hitler asking Hitler, the great Hitler, to intervene to help the Chinese. Now, he was actually interrogated by the Gestapo and the letter never reached Hitler. Siemens intervenes and he was released. He was allowed to keep his evidence, but he was told not to lecture or to write about it again. So he continues, so he remains in Germany now. He continues working for Siemens, which posted him for a short time to Afghanistan and then he returns to Berlin and he works at the company’s headquarters until the end of the war. Now, in post-war Germany, he is denounced for his Nazi party membership. Now, before I want to talk about that, can we actually go on to the extracts from his… Here’s the other extracts from his diary, please. Could you go on, please? Go on. Yes, this is what I, can you go on? Can you go on? That’s what I want. Thank you. Beg your pardon, Lauren. I had it all in the wrong order as I often do. Me and technology doesn’t work.

Now, the end of the war, he’s going to be brought up before a commission, but at the end of the war, this is what he’s writing about. Remember, he works for Siemens. “At 5 PM, a bomb dropped. A bomb destroyed the building. There are five buried here. By 8 o'clock, we’ve managed to dig up four of them, all wounded. The Russians have entered, but we don’t stop our work.” This is when the Russians have taken Berlin and of course, five days later, Hitler is, if you think about it, Hitler is going to commit suicide, the 30th of April, 1945. 29th of April, he marries Eva Braun and the day after, he commits suicide. And in his suicide letter, he actually still talks about the Jews when he says, one day the world will realise how I have saved them by destroying the Jews, even by humane means. That’s what he says. So anyone who says that Hitler wasn’t involved up to his eyes and actually was the main force behind the final solution is absolutely not only crazy, but it’s evil because it’s all there. Now, he’s keeping a diary. It’s a terrible time now. I’m sure you’ve all seen the photographs of the destruction of Berlin by the Russians. It’s the 14th of May, 1945. “Splendid spring day. The lilac is in full bloom. How beautiful the world could have been if the war had not been so wretchedly lost and the shadow of the future did not loom ahead so dark and sinister.” And he’s reflecting now. He’s talking about after World War I. And remember, Germany after World War I was ground into the dust. After World War I, which was mild in comparison to this one, there was a period of hunger and hate. The losers are to blame for everything.

Will this be repeated? What will become now that Germany has perished? Can we go on, please? I hope I have some more diary extracts, yes. “Sad to hear from Russian military how badly our troops behaved in Russia. I wouldn’t have believed it if we had not already heard similar stories from German soldiers. They had very bad things to say about their fellow countrymen, especially party members.” You see, up until this period, are we going to accept at face value this man who has been incredibly heroic in China? Look, he stood up against the war lust of the troops. He saved a huge number of people. He’s come back to Germany. He’s already beginning to understand what has happened. Did he have no idea working for Siemens? He wasn’t involved in any of the operations in the camps. We know that. It was a huge organisation. Did he close his eyes? We can’t answer that question. 31st of May. “If I was to be asked today why I remained in the party, I can only reply that those of us overseas never came into contact with the kind of people who were eyewitnesses to the atrocities that are said to have been committed by the SS. We were idealists of the first order and it was our impression that any ugly stories were just rumours, nothing more than enemy propaganda.” Can you bring the screen up a little bit so I can read the last one properly, Lauren? Is it possible?

• [Lauren] Sorry, it’s full screen. I can’t change that.

• Okay, I’ll have to read it from my own notes then. “If I have heard of any Nazi atrocities whilst in China, I would not have joined the party. And if my views as a German had clashed with those of other foreigners in Nanjing, the English, the Americans, the Danes, would they have chosen me to be chairman of the international committee?” Let me repeat that, this is important because I’m going to come on to the international committee in a minute. “If I had heard of any Nazi atrocities whilst in China, I would not have joined the party. And if my views as a German had clashed with those of other foreigners in Nanjing, the English, the Americans, and the Danes, would they never have chosen me to be chairman of the committee?” Okay, can we go back now if you don’t mind? Yeah, okay. All right, let’s stop there for a minute. Stop there for a minute. Now, I’m going to talk a little bit about the other members of the committee. Who’s he talking about? Casey Smythe, who was an American missionary and he was also a professor of sociology at Nanjing University. His wife was a doctor and he testified later on to the International Military Tribunal. Another guy was a missionary, Edward Sperling. George Fitch, another American missionary. He was head of the YMCA in China. He also kept a diary and gave testimony to the tribunal.

So, you have these religious Christians and missionaries, but you also have doctors. And what Rabe is saying, if I’d been such a Nazi, would these people have followed me as the leader? He was obviously very proud of the fact that he was the leader. Now, let’s go on. Of course, Japan surrenders. And that, of course, is the famous General MacArthur, who was, let’s have a look at the picture of General MacArthur. He was in charge of the operations in the Pacific. And he is, of course, the leaders. There’s a document of surrender. And an international tribunal is established for the Far East. And it’s proclaimed by MacArthur on April the 29th, 1946, which is a year after, of course, Hitler’s crazy marriage to Eva Braun and the year after, and then, of course, the suicide. And it’s modelled on Nuremberg. And it’s composed of jurists from 11 nations that have fought against Japan. And they begin, they give it a much wider scope. And they begin with the invasion of Manchuria and for waging an unprovoked war against China. Now, what is fascinating, what happened to those characters? But what happened to those characters? And frankly, the man who was behind the Nanjing Massacre, he was a prince. He didn’t suffer anything whatsoever because he was related to the imperial family. And a couple of the generals were put on trial because the troops had got out of control and they actually were executed.

But frankly, no real justice was ever brought to bear on those characters. So, summing up, this is from a Chinese historian, Zhao Sheng, writing today because, of course, oh, actually, she wrote, sorry, she wrote this last year, but now Chinese scholars are very interested in the Nanjing Massacre and how they come to terms with it. And basically, this is what she had to say. “The Nanjing Massacre was the worst tragedy in Chinese 20th century history.” And she refers to the Auschwitz. She refers, “like the Auschwitz massacre, it was one of the worst tragedies in human history. But in Japan, the perpetration of the massacre is still blatantly denied. There is a fabrication school. It’s downplayed by the middle-of-the-road school.” So, let’s try and evaluate Rabe. And then I’m going to come on to this other issue about the secrecy around the Nanjing Massacre. Now, what can we say about Rabe? He was incredibly brave when he was in Nanjing. He didn’t have to do it. Siemens had ordered him out of the city. He decided to stay behind. He took a huge risk because soldiers on the rampage are not necessarily cognizant of a role of a person. He did feel self-important. It mattered to him a lot that he was chairman of the International Committee. And he had the respect of all his colleagues, including, of course, the Americans and the British who were there.

He keeps this diary. Does the diary show huge naivety? He says it himself. I didn’t realise. I didn’t know what was going on in Germany. I didn’t believe in the atrocities. And to be fair, how much communication would he have? His family was with him in Nanjing. He did go back occasionally. He certainly… So, the question is, I think what his life illustrates is really the splits. Nobody is all saint or all sinner, or very few. And I think with Rabe, you have a complex personality. And he… I think he was incredibly naive. That’s for sure. Remember, he was a mid-ranking Nazi Party member. Did he risk his life? That’s another question you have to ask yourself. In post-war Germany, he is denounced for his Nazi Party membership. He’s arrested first by the Russians and then by the British, but he’s given intense interrogation and they decide he’s completely small fry. And after the war, he works sporadically for Siemens, but he lost his work permit because of his Nazi Party membership. He had to go for a denazification process. He appealed, but he used up his savings with his legal defence. And he had to survive in a one-room apartment with his family. And how did he survive? By selling his art. And the formal denazification doesn’t come through until June 1946. And it wasn’t until 1948 that people in Nanjing actually heard of his plight. Now remember, poverty-stricken China, the people, the families of people he had rescued actually managed to raise $2,000.

And Nanjing’s mayor actually travelled to Germany via Switzerland, where he bought a large amount of food for the family. And from mid-'48 until the communist takeover in 1949, he did receive food parcels from relatives of people and people he’d saved in Nanjing. And he wrote many, many letters of gratitude. He died of a stroke in 1950. And for a long period, he was lost to history because the war crimes trials, as I said to you, both in Europe and in the Far East, the world was changing. Enemies were changing. And one of the problems with the Nanjing Massacre today is I remember when we first started teaching in China, go back to about 2005. The hatred of Japan was absolutely palpable. When you’re dealing with West Germany, it wasn’t long before there was a beginnings of intellectual cooperation. Don’t forget, Israel needed Germany and Germany desperately needed Israel. By 1951, Ben-Gurion had done a deal with Adenauer, look, who had no Nazi past. It was terribly controversial. Of course, it was controversial, but the Jewish state needed money. It needed help. And Germany, Adenauer’s government, was prepared to pay the price. And also there were many Germans who were completely sickened. But on the other hand, West Germany was being bolstered up against communism.

So many of the war criminals, as I said before, had never been brought to justice. In Japan, of course, particularly after the Chinese Communist Revolution, Japan is going to become gradually an ally. And consequently, what happened in China was kept very, very quiet. What happens with Germany by 1960, '61, the Eichmann trial was a total revelation. Because remember, it lasts for 10 months. It’s world news. And as a result of the Eichmann trial, 20,000 young Germans went to work on the kibbutz, in the kibbutz movement, including one of the best educators that I have ever met, Wolfgang Kleiser, who headed up the educational centre at the former, at the Wannsee house. And then, of course, you had the films, and there was, and the books, and the books, and the films, and there was the beginnings, we won’t call it reconciliation, because there can never really be reconciliation.

But if you like, an attempt at some kind of modus vivendi. But with Japan, for years, it was hushed up. For years, the Japanese denied it ever happened. And even today, there is a lot of denial. And also, there is the middle of the road saying, yes, there was a massacre, but it was the heat of war, and it wasn’t very important. So there’s still this rawness in China, and certainly in Nanjing, amongst Chinese scholars. We dreamt of being able to bring Japanese and Chinese scholars together. There are many Japanese scholars now who study the Holocaust. And Sugihara is a great hero in Japan. So I wanted to start this occasional series on rescuers. And I think we should finish on that picture of General MacArthur, who was such an incredible character. Because I know it brings up an awful lot of dilemmas. And I hope that we can begin a conversation about this. Because he is a complicated character. And I did want to bring in someone who is involved outside the Jewish arena. He didn’t like Jews very much. There are certain slightly anti-Semitic references in his diary. So let me leave it at that. And let’s see about the questions, Lauren.

Q&A and Comments:

Lots of people are wishing Shana Tova. So Shana Tova to you, all of you. And let’s get through the next few months.

This is now from Rose. Ken Burns’ documentary is now out on Apple. Terrible what did not happen in America. Yes, let’s face it. Remember what I said right at the beginning, Rose? There were 700 million people in Europe, America. Look, it’s what people did, what people didn’t do. I hate the artificial categories. But you can say it. Let’s say it. There were the rescuers. And there weren’t that many of them. There were the bystanders, which is the majority. There were the collaborators. And there were the perpetrators. Now, the question you have to ask yourselves. And it’s a very, very difficult one. To what extent did the British government and the American government collaborate in the Holocaust? Certainly, there were extremist elements in Palestine, like the Lehi and the Irgun who believed that. It’s a very, very complicated story. There were many requests to bomb Auschwitz. Auschwitz was never bombed. And the requests came from people who were in there themselves. And I think Ken Berg, Rex Blumstein, who gives occasional programmes for us, he made a brilliant documentary called Auschwitz and the Allies back in the, I think it was in the late ‘80s, based on Martin Gilbert’s book. And what was amazing about his documentary is he interviewed people who were involved in this decision making. And I know that Rex will be doing a session on this next year.

Now, this is from Susan. After being honoured at Yad Vashem, Sugihara had a street named after him in Israel, a tribute to a great man. Yes, of course. And we will spend time on Sugihara.

Q: This is Romain. There’s a psychological concept called cognitive dissonance. Do you think Rabe’s Nazi affiliation contributed to his difficulty as an empathetic person to not help the Chinese?

A: But he did help the Chinese. That’s the point. He saved a quarter of a million of them, Romain. Did he risk his life? Well, he stood up to the Japanese army when they went in to try and take out some Chinese soldiers. He was obviously horrified by what had happened. He did use the fact that he was a member of the Nazi party. And when he says, “They must have respected me because they made me the leader.” But if you were cynical and you were setting up a rescue committee, bearing in mind the Japanese had an alliance with the Germans, the Comintern Pact, you probably would have chosen a German. So maybe that had nothing to do with it.

Oh, hi, Judy. Just to let you know, Titan Traveller doing a tour of Route 66. It sounds so interesting. It’s travelling through America for two weeks. They offer a few dates, starting in Chicago and ending in Las Vegas. I’m going with a friend next year. If you want more details, email me.

Oh, God, that’s so tempting, Carol. And it’s nice having looked at horror to look at the likeness of life, isn’t it? The book on Cohen is quite expensive for some reason.

Oh, this is it. Oh, my God. This is from Bonnie Yang. My mother and her family escaped Nanjing three weeks before the massacre in December, sailing on the last boat flying the French commissariat flag up the Yangtze River to Chongqing. Incredible times and no news. Oh, my goodness. Have you anything else to tell us? That’s incredible. I hope Wendy’s listening. This is what lockdown is all about. It’s a great pleasure and a privilege to have you on the programme. Thank you.

This is Shana Tova. Professor Xu Xin was our guide in China in 2006 and was brilliant from a Jewish history perspective. I have a signed copy of his book, “The Jews of Kaifeng.” Yes, I’m going to see if I can invite Xu Xin to talk to our group. The problem is that China’s tightening up. So he’s a remarkable man because he used to work with us in all our conferences and it was he who got us involved in China. And through his endeavours and that of Jerry Gotell, Ira took on China. So when we start, because the brief of Ira, the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, was really the killing fields of Europe. We started working in Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Ukraine. But because of China and also because Jerry realised how interested the Chinese are in Jews, he thought that it was an important thing to do. So we ran conferences over there. And there are some very interesting Chinese scholars. Jerry became a professor over there. Believe it or not, he had Chinese students who were studying aspects of the Talmud. They were studying philanthropy. You know, the professors wanted to know how Jews living in the diaspora sent money to what they called the mothership, Israel. They have some very interesting ideas about Jews in China. Unfortunately, sometimes stereotype, but it’s appetite.

It’s fascinating Myrna says, I’d love that book. It was one I looked for. It was over $100. I don’t know. I don’t know. I’m lucky. I think I’ve only got one copy now. I gave some to friends. No, leave that with me.

This is from Jay. I know someone who was saved by Sugihara signing his papers enabling to escape from Lithuania to Shanghai. Yes, we will do a whole session on Sugihara. Back in about, let me think, about 2000, there was an extraordinary exhibition. The first ever conference of the task force, remember, was the first conference of the new millennium. I’ve mentioned this to you in the past. And there was a brilliant exhibition called Visas for Life, which was put together by an American historian called Schwartz. And it was about diplomats who saved Jews. And of course, that’s where I met the daughter of the Chinese diplomat. And of course, the Japanese were very proud of Sugihara. And they’ve made a great hero of him now.

Q: Can you explain the Nazis view of the Japanese considering their attraction to Aryanism?

A: David, there is no logic in this. They made the Japanese into honorary Aryans. And for those of you who know about the apartheid situation in South Africa, the Japanese were not, they were not considered a subgroup like the Chinese. They were honorary Aryans.

Q: This is, yes, Rose Rahami, what I failed to understand is how do you save Chinese? And yet it’s part of a party that annihilates the Jews and similar or worse.

A: This is the complexity of it, Rose. This is the point. That’s why in these days of all, when we are meant to be reflective, I just thought it would be interesting to bring him into the equation because it shows you just how complex the human condition is. I mean, look at a character that we all know, like Oskar Schindler. Oskar Schindler was not a really, he was a member of the Nazi party. He was not a nice man in any sense. You know, he was a devil may care adventurer. But something touched him. Something touched him. He made a lot of money out of the war, but something touched him.

Sugihara, he was more altruistic because he just saw the panic and he gave and he disobeyed orders to give out visas. So did the man in China and the Chinese diplomat in Vienna. But then you have the amazing Wallenberg. There are so many. There are 35,000 people on it in Yad Vashem and they all have incredible stories. So and they’re the ones who give us a faith in humanity because they do really come from every walk of life. I thought this man, because of your point, Rose, I thought he was just so complicated.

This is from Marilyn. I’m a reasonably well educated about 35 years ago. My father mentioned the rape of Nanjing and I said I’d never heard of it, nor had any of my friends. He was very shocked and I’ve since learned a lot more about it. Now the the rape of Nanjing. Oh my goodness, my brain is not working. There was a very important book written by a Jew. Leave that one with me next time I lecture.

Q: Were there any Jews in Nanjing?

A: I don’t think so at that time. There was a very large Jewish community in the year 1000 and I’m going to talk about that in a couple of weeks. Huge community. Nanjing was a sophisticated city when London was sort of wooden huts. Thank you, Judy.

Yes, this is from Robert and a very important point. The John Rabe story is a perfect example of why stereotyping is so dangerous and unfair. Yes.

Q: Has the massacre been classified as a genocide? Was there a deliberate attempt to work out, to wipe out a whole people?

A: That was not the Nanjing Massacre. They went on the rampage for six weeks and murdered between 200,000 and 300,000. Can you imagine 150,000 lives and we don’t have accurate figures? Can you imagine the horror of that? But a genocide? The term genocide was actually coined by a Jewish lawyer called Raphael Lemkin. He lost his family and he was very involved in the Declaration of Human Rights for the UN and as was Hirsch Lauterbach. And that he came up with the word genocide, the destruction of a people. We throw these terms around. I know I use the word Holocaust, but I wish I didn’t because it means a burnt offering, a sacrifice, show up. And I think if you’re going to be classic about the precise meaning of terms, a genocide is an attempt to wipe a whole people off the face of the earth. It’s the destruction of a people and it’s Latin, genus. So the Holocaust was a, or the Shoah was a genocide. It was an attempt to wipe the Jews off the face of the earth. The Nanjing Massacre, in a way, it’s semantics. It was a horror. And I think from the Chinese point of view, the wound is deep because it was covered up. And the Japanese, I can remember a friend of mine who was a businessman who did business in China. And he said that sometimes the doormats that the mats where people wipe their feet when they go into their offices or factories in China would have the word Nippon written on it because they’d be wiping their feet on the Japanese. It’s interesting in the West because after the war, the Japanese had a terrible bad reputation in books, in films. I remember comics. A friend of mine did a study of the image of the Japanese in comic books. They were called, and I’m using a nasty word here, but I’m using it because I think it was a word that was used at the time, Nip. Now, it’s extraordinary how quickly that stereotyping disappeared and Japan became a great ally of the West. So it’s so complicated.

This is from Mori. Hello. I remember seeing a newsreel when I was a very young woman of Japanese soldiers burying Chinese people alive and dumping down the earth atop them with the boots. I’m still traumatised by the memory of that image. These documents are out there, or at least they were. I wonder what this rescue would have done had he been in Germany during the war and which of these atrocities firsthand. Well, you’re the psychologist. I don’t know. That’s the point. He seems to have been naive. He actually thought Hitler would help. Remember, he wasn’t there during those appalling years. He did go back in 1938, though. Siemens sent him to Afghanistan.

Q: Did he keep his blinkers on?

A: He wouldn’t have seen the films that were shown because in German cinema between 1933 and 1939, Germany, like Britain, you remember the B picture, the A picture, and in the middle of the newsreels, Jews were shown as all sorts of vermin. I mean, the propaganda was appalling. The worst propaganda film ever made in 1940, where Jews and rats are put together. So he wouldn’t have seen any of that.

Q: Would he have known about the camps?

A: You see, that is the big question. Who knew and what they knew? It’s such a big question. And who wanted to know? Who wanted to know? Who dared know? Look, the first Jewish researcher into the Russian archives was a man called Professor Gerald Fleming. He was a German Jew. And he actually, what he went to look at, because remember, after the collapse of communism, you had access to archives you’d never had before. Much of the Gestapo archive was in East Germany. And remember, the Soviets, they didn’t want to push the Germans too greatly into the mud either. East Germany, if you knew how many members of the Gestapo went to work for the KGB, just as many Nazis went to work for the British and the Americans. You know, that’s real politic. So what Gerald Fleming looked at was the people who created Auschwitz. Now, what do I mean by that? The gas company, the electric company, the architects, the secretaries, they all had families. They were commissioned to create an extermination centre. That’s just one little example. So it needs your kind of expertise, not mine, I think, because it needs deep psychological insight into this kind of thing. I’m putting it before you because I don’t know enough about the human condition. Do any of us?

Q: Did the Japanese mostly get a pass on what they did from the West because of fear of the communists and Mao?

A: Yes, probably, Shirley. I think your analysis is correct.

Yes, Rose Rahami, having been to Hiroshima, there’s an audio directed at their children. It’s trying to paint Japan as a victim. Well, Japan was a victim. Look, let’s be careful, Rose. The dropping of the atomic bomb, there is such a controversial story, isn’t it? The scientists, what did they want? They wanted it dropped on an unmanned island in the middle of the ocean because they knew what it could do. From a military point of view, yes, it shortened the war, but what happened there, there were also innocent Japanese children. That’s the problem. And this is the time when we do need to think about these things because, tragically, my analysis of history is we haven’t yet, although we have incredibly sophisticated tools, we haven’t yet made enough progress as human beings, have we? You know, you think the Greeks didn’t deal with these kinds of dilemmas? The Jews? Of course, just think about the prophets. What are the prophets about? How do you become righteous?

And this is Alfred and Rony, your ask was rather naive, far from it. He was a proud and arrogant German, embedded in his Nazi superiority self-view. In his own personal words, he remarks how nice the world would have been if the war had not been lost, not a speck of how good the world would have been if Germany had not started the war in the first place. A man worthy of honour, no, a man disturbing of our state. You see, it’s interesting you’re saying that, but to the Chinese, he’s a hero. There’s a museum in his memory. In Nanjing, he is honoured because he did save a quarter of a million people. So, yes, was Schindler a man of honour? Look at the people he saved and how many lines of dissent. Because what does it mean to have real honour? That’s another issue. Certainly in the Catholic Church, saints, I’ve looked at many saints, they’re the worst anti-Jews in history. So what does it mean? What gives one person that kind of courage and another person not? These are the butlers.

This is from Grandma Long. Thanks, Asian involvement in World War II. My generation heard a lot about Germany, but the Sino-Japanese conflict seems to merit little conflict. Thank you. The Koreans hate the Japanese also. I think it’s primarily due to the comfort women. Yes, David, this is something that a lot of Chinese scholars go on about. These are women who are forced into prostitution and treated in the most appalling way. In fact, when we lectured in China, it was fascinating because we were there ostensibly to lecture about the Shoah, but we had lots of Chinese scholars coming to the conferences, and many of them lectured on the comfort women. We were very privileged because it was the task force. We brought educators from Yad Vashem, from the Wannsee House, from the Washington Museum, from the Anne Frank House. We were very fortunate that many of the best educators in Holocaust studies came to China and from the Fondation de la Shoah in Paris. Also fascinating individuals working with Chinese scholars who were beginning to come to terms with the Nanjing Massacre. So we were learning from each other. It was an extraordinary experience. I believe Jewish rescuers have not been given their due.

This is very interesting, Abigail, because Yad Vashem does not honour Jewish rescuers, and of course there were some extraordinary Jewish rescuers. One of my favourites is, in fact, in England they set up this category now. One of my favourite rescuers is Wilfred Israel. He’s an incredible character.

But this is from Jean. I found it easier to be in Berlin because of their acknowledgement of the Holocaust. I dislike Vienna because of their refusal to acknowledge their role. There has been a slight shift in Vienna. A friend of mine is actually a Jewish girl, and Helena Hanna-Lessig is in charge of the Fond, and the Fond, which helps victims of Nazi horror. And I think there’s a certain beginning of coming together, but it’s going to take quite a lot of time.

Yes, the rescuers in Budapest, Abigail. Yes, that’s very important because it’s not just Wallenberg, is it? It’s Karl Lutz. It’s the Spanish guy. It’s the Portuguese. So in situations, there are always those who save. And what about those who lost their lives saving? That’s also… You know, there were people who died because they saved other people. Yes, there was an Iranian who saved French Persian Jews. What about, yes, there were Arabs as well who saved Jews.

Q: And what about Prince Philip’s mother, the current King of England’s grandmother, who saved a Greek Jewish family? What about the Jews in China, in Shanghai, in the Sassoon and Kuduris?

A: Yes, that’s a story we haven’t come to. And there’s a historian who is an expert on that. Look, we’ve been going for two and a half years. There are lots of areas we haven’t covered yet. And of course, there’s a very good biography out on the Sassoons. So yes, they are fascinating. They’re known as the Rothschilds of the East.

This is from Merna. I have many friends in Toronto who arrived by being saved by going to Shanghai. Yes, Shanghai was an open city. About 25,000 German and Austrian Jews made it to Shanghai. Yeah.

This is Jean. My friend, whose father in New York spent many hours trying to raise funds and get sponsored from Jews, felt that Ken Burns had tiptoed over this part. She recalls that time with great sorrow. I haven’t seen the documentary. I really want to see it, Jean. Yeah, the same thing happened in England. I had a friend. Unfortunately, he’s dead now. He was a Polish Jew. And in 1938, yeah, I’m going to tell this story.

This is the last story. In the summer of 1938, there was a conference in Evian. It was convened by the Commission of Refugees for the League of Nations to talk about the plight of German and Austrian Jews. And basically, at Evian, very little was done. And in fact, the British delegate, Lord Winterton, came back to England and apologised to the German ambassador for unwarrantable interference in the affairs of the state. Goebbels writes in his diary, we savages are better than the so-called civilised world. Just after Evian, the Germans, the Nazis, fulfilled one of their programme promises of 1921, the German Workers’ Party Manifesto, that any Jew who’d come to Germany post 1914 would be expelled. And he began to expel Polish-born Jews back to the German border, including this friend of mine who was eight years old at the time. And he tells, and in fact, that one of the families was the Grinspan family.

And that led to Herschel Grinspan killing Ron Roth, who was the German attache in Paris, which led to Kristallnacht. But going back to the story of this friend, he managed to come out on the Kindertransport. He was eight years old. And towards the end of his life, his wife called me up. We were close family friends. And she said, you’ve got to do something. He keeps collecting gold bars and he hides them in his cellar. He always believed if he had 100 pounds, 50 for each parent, he could have saved his parents because you needed, the British government demanded sponsorship. And a lot of Jews did raise the money. It was terribly, terribly difficult. There were some amazing characters like Rabbi Schoenfeld who were bringing out lots of religious boys. They were incredible people. There was the wonderful Sidney Silverman, a Jewish MP. There was also some wonderful non-Jewish MPs. So in every country, there were the good, but there were also the bad who did nothing. So it’s a terrible story, Jean. And it’s a very complicated story.

Q: Did they know what was going to happen though? Did they realise how bad it would get?

A: Shelley, Rabbi Sachs often talked about the difference between shame and guilt cultures. Western and Jewish cultures being guilt cultures Eastern cultures being shame cultures.

Q: Do you think that explains the Japanese not taking responsibility?

A: I can’t answer that quickly. I’m going to make a note of it and I’m going to think hard.

Oh, sorry. Yes, he got them all into the safety zone, the international safety zone, which the 15 members, because they were foreign nationals, they looked after it and they didn’t allow the Japanese in. That’s how they saved them. The University of Nanjing has a Czech Torah scroll. We took Jewish books to the university in 2007. Yes, Nanjing has a very good Jewish history department and so also the University of Henan as well. Let’s have a look. In South Africa, Japanese were only white because of trade. No trade with China. Thus, Chinese were not privileged.

Jean, I’ve got to check that because I was told it was actually ideological as well. So let’s check that. Are you sure about that? I really want to check that. The Koreans were seen as inferior by the Japanese, says Mark. Book about Koreans under Japanese rule. Some of them went to North Korea post-war in the hope that life would be better. We know how that turned out. Yes, there have been so many people in the world who have had such terrible histories.

Are you sure it’s about trade, Monty? I’ll take your word for it because this is not my area of expertise. I was told by a South African colleague of mine, it was about actual race law. Okay, all right. So many of you were saying it. If you’re all saying that, well, I’m going to, I’ll take what you’re saying to me and check it out. I was told they were made in Taiwan-Rio. I’ll have to check that with a friend of mine.

This is from Barry. Ian Smith and Rhodesia supported Israel when every country in Africa except the South Africa and Malawi supported Israel. None of those who supported the Jews? Yes, it’s complicated, isn’t it? The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Abigail, speaking about Shuvan Rosh Hashanah, I saw a video of Facebook of Arnold Schwarzenegger and Auschwitz speaking up for tolerance and he was raised the son of an unrepentant Nazi. That’s very interesting, Abigail. Thank you for accepting that invitation. Write to me, please.

After the war, Schindler atoned his relations with Jews, not only his own. Rabe did no such thing. That’s a significant difference. You’re not letting that one go, are you? I did. The New Yorker devoted a whole issue to the dropping of an atomic bomb on Hiroshima.

It’s so complicated, isn’t it? Joan says maybe I should ask Hannah to give a presentation. Yes, I will. I’m going to be taking a trip to Vienna, I hope. So I shall be in contact with her, definitely. It’ll be interesting.

Joan is saying the Ken Burns documentary must be better distributed. Yes, I need to see it. Yes, Two-Gun Cohen was in Shanghai. Yes, as I said, my friend Sandra Myers gave a presentation on him. In fact, there’s a couple of families in London who claimed him as a relative. Brenda’s saying my husband and family were saved by Sugihara.

This is from Roda. Karen Shopsowitz made a documentary of the Jews in Shanghai. Yes, I think I have it. It’s brilliant. I also heard trade. Sarah, I’m going to accept it’s about trade. You are accepted, I think, Monty, all of you.

Anyway, let’s finish there. Thank you very much. Lauren, I’m sorry I had my slides around the wrong way. One day I’ll get technical. May I wish you all well over the fast. And it’s been an extraordinary experience for me. And I know it has been for Wendy. Lockdowns enriched all of us, including my colleagues. And it’s been a boon. It’s been a boon to have all of you. Because look what we all learn.

And so bless you all. And let’s get through the next few months. God bless.