Trudy Gold
Carl Lutz: A Swiss Hero

Trudy Gold - Carl Lutz: A Swiss Hero

- Okay, I’m just looking at the questions. This is from Elaine. “I live in Montreal. A supermarket near me had to take all their kosher meat off the shelves after receiving a threat, there’s something had been done. What a world.” And Val says, “Can you tell me how soon after a talk is given is it available on the website?” It’s after a week. Can you answer that for me?

• [Technician] I’m going to look into that right now and hopefully answer that question before we’re done.

• Well, I’m impressed that some of you realise there is a time change, and it’s because we’ve got a very special lecture at six o'clock and it’s the only time you would do it. So this isn’t normal. This is a one-off and in the series on Switzerland, just for your information, we start America next week, and that’s going to go on and on and on. It’s a very, very interesting course that we developing. When I looked at the Swiss syllabus, I thought, you know, we do need heroes, particularly at a time like this. And it’s important to remember that there are, for as many people as they’re making us feel absolutely uncomfortable, I’m talking now about those of us who live in the West. Those of us who live in Israel, it’s a completely different story, and I hope you realise just how much we are all with you through this. And I know we do have people from Israel still listening in and we salute you. But in the diaspora, it is very, very uncomfortable. And I think what was the real shock was that in many ways the creation of a Jewish state was to stop the powerlessness of the Jew. And that is why that cynically evil attack has so shattered us. There’s a quote of Isaiah Berlins. He said, “Of course all Jews are paranoid, but with our history, we have a right to be.” But all I’m saying to you, I think in England the boil is beginning to be lanced. There is a proposed march of a million people supporting Palestine on actually on 11/11. It’s a Saturday. And that is really, really upsetting, many, many British people.

And the fact that as we move up to honouring those who died in the wars and British heroes, there are so many British people who are feeling very, very uncomfortable. And as my very, very dear friend and colleague William Tyler said, “It’s not just the Jews who are attacked, it’s anyone who believes in liberalism is attacked.” And we are not alone. But as I said, I thought at a time like this, let’s concentrate how even in the darkest times there were heroes. And of the heroes, we have a wonderful Swiss man, a man called Carl Lutz. And what I’m going to try and do is delve the little in to see if we can understand what turns some people to the light, what turns some people to the dark, because he is credited with saving about 60,000 Jews in Hungary. And Hungary is a particularly poignant case, which I will come onto later. So let’s have a look at Carl Lutz and his background. So if we could see the first slide, please. There you see the man born in 1895, died in 1975. A very upright, tall, rather strong looking man. And let’s look at where he was born. The next slide please. That’s Walzenhausen and he was born in the Swiss Mountains, that’s in northeast Switzerland. An absolute picture box of a pretty picture box town, isn’t it? He attended local schools. His father owned a sandstone quarry and his mother died when he was 14. She died of TB.

And the following year, he doesn’t come from a wealthy family, he comes from a religious family, a Christian family. But remember of course that Switzerland was mainly Protestant. And at 15 he was apprenticed to a textile factory, again in a beautiful town. Can we have a look? Yeah, that is St. Margrethen. I don’t know how many of you have travelled through this part of Switzerland. It really is kind of dreamy. For me, a little bit boring, but nevertheless, very, very pretty to look at. But in 1913, he realised that there’d be far more to offer him, and he immigrates to the United States of America. He worked, first of all in Illinois to earn money to attend college. And what was the college he went to? Can we see it please? He went to the Wesleyan College in Missouri. Wesleyan is and it actually go out of England. It’s low church, it’s evangelical, but it’s very geared to a decent code of living. And having done that, he was at the college until 1920. And then he went to work at the Swiss Consulate in Washington. At the same time, he took a bachelor’s degree at George Washington University. By 1926, he’s working at the Swiss Consulate in Philadelphia. And between 1926 and 1934, he goes to St. Louis. So he’s climbing up the bureaucratic rung within the Swiss diplomatic service. In 1935, he married. Can we see her face please? He married a woman called Gertrud Lutz-Frankhauser. She’d been born near Bern. Her father also a very, ‘cause she’s going to be a great heroine. Her father was a cheese maker. She was very ambitious. She went to business school in Bern and then she immigrated to America and she was working as a secretary at the consulate when she met Carl Lutz. And they were married at St. Paul’s Church in Bern. The honeymoon was cancelled because he was given a position in Palestine. And important that you know, that she’s going to work with her husband through all rescue missions. And she, along with her husband, is going to be awarded righteous of the nations.

They divorced, but she went on to have an extraordinary career in really liberal charities. She was vice president of UNICEF, Director of Europe and Asia between 1966 and 1971. This is before these organisations had been polluted with what I’m going to call antisemitism. So she was very much on the side of the angels and she helped her husband very much working with him. Not I’m saying helping him because they worked together through this terrible period. He is then seconded to Palestine. And let’s have a look at Palestine in the thirties. There you see Jaffa, he’s at the Swiss consulate in Palestine. And of course he’s going to be there through the early days of the war. Can can we see also Tel Aviv? I love these old postcards. There’s Tel Aviv in 1930. They arrived there a little after that. But that really gives you a picture of mandate Palestine. And of course what happens is following the outbreak of World War II, diplomatic relations between belligerent states are over and Palestine is a British mandate. Switzerland, and of course we’ve discussed, well Williams discussed with you the tradition of neutrality. It goes back to 1815. It found itself accepting request to provide diplomatic and consul advice on behalf of countries no longer with diplomatic relationships. So he’s in charge of relations of several countries, including Germany. His wife was a brilliant organiser. One of her tasks was to look after Germans in Palestine, women, children, and the elderly. Many of them, of course, were interned by the British, including some Jews. And what it meant was that she could build up all sorts of contacts that would later be invaluable. In the autumn of 1940, the German interests were transferred to Spain. Lutz, goes back to Switzerland.

But his wife stayed behind for a bit looking after the problems of the people she’s dealing with. But then in 1942, he becomes the vice consul in Budapest. Can we go on please? Now I’m going to talk quite a bit about Hungary, because it’s Hungary where he is going to be concerned with saving Jews. Now remember, Hungary had been part of the Habsburg Empire, and after the first World War, of course it was on the losing side. So what happens is much of what was part of Hungary, considered part of Hungary, was taken away and given to newly created states. So there was always this feeling in Hungary that they’d been robbed after the first World War. And you can also see that they’re going to go into an alliance with Germany and it’s going to pay off because they’re going to get a lot of their territory back. So important to remember, there’s huge nationalism in Hungary. And I think it’s quite important also that I give you a taste really of what the situation was in Hungary, which means we’re going to have to talk a little bit about the Jewish community. Because the Jewish community in Hungary was absolutely enormous. In 1910 census, there were 911,000 Jews. They made up 5% of the population. Now, there was a lot of immigration in between 1881 to 1912, but after the First World War in the census of Jews I think it’s important you take this on because we’re going to have to look at the naked anti-Semitism that’s going to break out. Hungary, the further east you go, the more peasant like it becomes. I’ve travelled in all these places, I’ve taught in most of them.

And the further you go into Transylvania and up towards Transcarpathia, you are dealing with very much a rural peasant society. So looking at the Jewish population, which made up about 5% of the population, 61% of the merchants in Hungary were Jewish. 58% of the printers, 42% of the innkeepers, 24% of the bakers, 28% of the butchers, 21% of the tailors, 50% of all the doctors and lawyers. Before the First World War, 20% of the classical gymnasium were Jews. And 37% of high school students in the elite gymnasium were also Jewish. So what I’m showing you, you have an incredibly upwardly mobile Jewish community. Now, in the census of 1920, 52% of Jews lived in small Hungary. That’s that Hungary that the yellow before they were further in that anex. Now in Budapest, and I think this is very, very important, 47% of the doctors, 41% of the vets, 34% of the journalists, 25% of the musicians, 23% of actors, and of the important landowners, 20% were Jewish. In small Hungary, the yellow area, there were 2,740 factories, 50% of them owned by Jews. Now what does that tell us? It tells us that the Jews have a high prominence in the economy. And also there was some incredibly interesting Hungarians, and I think we’re going to be running some classes on them. A group called the Martians. They were called the Martians because according to one of their number who we’ve… Leo Szilard, they came from another planet. There were these five brilliant Jews who all studied at a Lutheran Gymnasium in Budapest. And later on they include people like Edward Teller, Szilard, Wagner, they’re all going to be Nobel Prize winners, and they’re all going to come together at Los Alamos. So they’re are very upwardly mobile, highly visible.

It is very similar to other countries in central Europe. A peasant population and an aristocracy, and not yet a properly developed middle class. So as a result, you have a very high visible percentage of Jews. And if you actually look at the stock exchange, 88% of those in the Budapest Stock Exchange were Jews, 91% of the currency brokers. And so 90% of Hungarian industries owned by a few closely interrelated families. Now there’s also a huge population of poor Jews, mainly in the east of Hungary. But the point is, it’s this association of Jews with a success and money. And of course, what is going to happen in the First World War? Now the reason I’ve given you that is you’ve got to understand that when we look at the cause of anti-Semitism, it’s so important at the moment to try and understand it. Where does that beast come from? Look, you know, my views, I think it’s a 2000 year disease. I think it’s actually more or less incurable, but I do believe it’s this negative image of the Jew and money and power that when society is fractured, that’s the point. And Hungary, after the First World War, is going to be completely fractured. Now, and the man who is going to emerge as the saviour of Hungary is Nicholas Horthy. Now, at the end of the First World War, there is a revolution in Hungary. And yes, you guessed it was run by a Jew called Bela Kun. It fails, but there was a lot of terror and a fear of communism. So on top of Jews as capitalists, you now have the image of Jews as communists. The after World War I, something like 25%, 23% of the population of Budapest was Jewish. They called it Jew-dapest.

And also Jews were very prominent in the emerging film business. Don’t forget that people like Alexander Korda, Michael Curtis, these great figures who are later going to enrich British and American cinema, many of them come from Hungary and they come also through the theatre. So basically you’ve got social fraction, you have a sense of impetus, the Communist Revolution, and then the Communist Revolution is very much saved by Admiral Horthy. He was a fascinating individual, a very, very controversial individual. Can we have a look at his face? I’m going to mention the Jewish Agency for Israel because when Lutz arrives there, he’s going to deal with it. That is Admiral Horthy. It’s fascinating that he’s an admiral because I hope you realise that Hungary is now landlocked. But he was actually an admiral left over from the Habsburg Empire or the, as it’s better known, the Austro-Hungarian Empire. That is where he was an admiral. He’d entered the Austro-Hungarian Imperial Naval Academy when he was 14. He was a brilliant linguist. He spoke a dozen languages. He travelled the world as a diplomat for the Habsburgs in the Ottoman Empire. He was married, he had four children, and he becomes a to Franz Joseph, who he greatly admired. And by March, 1918, he is the commander of the imperial fleet. So the end of the war, he retire to his estate. And it was a Trianon, the treaty that of course sorted out the countries at the end of the war redrew the map of Europe and the Middle East. If you want to look at the problems of the Middle East today, you need to go all the way back to the First World War and how arbitrary divisions were created. So basically Hungary loses two thirds of its territory, and then it experiences the Bela Kun Revolution. And then on the 30th of May, you have a counter-revolutionary government, and they ask Horthy, the war hero, to become minister of war and take over command of the army.

What then happens is the communist government collapses, a French supported Romanian troops into Budapest. And in retaliation for the terror, you have the white terror. It was organised by army officers. Victims were mainly communists, social Democrats and Jews. There were pogroms throughout Hungary, mainly in Budapest. Now ironically, of course the Jews were not particularly supportive of the Bolsheviks, but as most of the leadership have been born Jewish, it transmitted into anti-Semitism. And I’m back to the question I keep on asking you, define Jew for me. Did Bela Kun see himself as a Jew? Of course he didn’t. He’d swallowed the Marxist notion of religion being the opiates of the peoples. He worked for the Soviets. Having said that, he was considered by those who hated him to be racially a Jew. And this is one of the problems, of course, that Jews faced. Now, it was actually Horthy though, who discovers a citywide pogrom and he prevented it. And this is from a colleague of his, “Don’t give the foreign press ammunition, we should stop harassing small Jews, instead, we should get rid of government Jews. In vain, I tried to convince him that liberals would be against us anyway, and it didn’t matter if we succeeded.” Now, how much was Horthy responsible in the white terror? But the point, because the point is, he didn’t do anything to the army officers because he needed him. And the terror does not abate until 1920. And of course, as a lot of Jews got out at this time, including the characters I’ve just men mentioned, to the Martians, the brains from another planet. He said this, “I had no reason to gloss over deeds of injustice and atrocities committed when an iron broom alone could sweep the country clean. The communists in Hungary were willing disciples of the Russian Bolsheviks let hell run loose.”

And it’s important to remember that Horthy had a hatred of communism. And following allied pressure, the Romanians get out, the National Assembly of Hungary really, they put Horthy in power. He becomes the regent and head of state. He has incredible power and he’s going to reign until 1944. And I’m going to use the title reign because he really was a king. And the situation he faced was not as bad as it could have been because the League of Nations lent Hungary 250 million gold crowns. And he managed to keep Hungary relatively stable. However, one of the problems was that after the Wall Street crash, there were more and more issues. And who was the natural trading partner of Hungary? Of course it was Germany. And in 1934, he allows a bilateral trade agreement with Germany. And Hitler found him, the problem was he himself had a distaste for Hitler, but some of his ministers, including . Hitler found him an admiring and obliging colleague. And by 1938, 52% of Hungary’s imported expert business was with Germany. Now, this is a letter on Horthy and the Jews, because there is a case to answer. This is a letter to his prime minister, Pál Teleki. “The Jews enjoy too much success in commerce, the professions, and industry, success that needs curtailing. As regards to the Jewish problem, I have been an anti-Semite throughout my life. I’ve never had contact with Jews. I have considered it intolerable that here in Hungary, everything, every factory, bank, large fortune, business, theatre, press, commerce should be in Jewish hands and that the Jews should be the image reflected of Hungary, especially abroad. Since however, one of the major tasks of the government is to raise the standard of living, we have to acquire wealth. It is impossible in a year or two to replace the Jews who have everything in their hands and to replace them with incompetent, unworthy, mostly big mouthed elements for we should be become bankrupt. This requires a generation at least.”

So basically he enters into an alliance with Germany, and as a result, Hungary extends its territory four times and doubles its size. And back in 1938 with Germany’s help, it’s repudiated its restrictions on its armed forces. And Horthy allowed his successive prime ministers to enact anti-Jewish legislation. For example, in August, 1941, intermarriage was prohibited. Anyone with two Jewish grandparents was regarded as racially Jewish. Jewish men having sex with Hungarian women, a three year prison sentence. Now, Horthy with his fear, with his horror of communism, was not prepared to help very much because of the attitude of, because of the pact that Hitler had done with Stalin. But June, 1941, after the invasion of Russia, Hungary actively contributed to the Axis war effort. Now, there was a fascist party in Hungary called the Arrow Cross. And I’m going to talk about it. Horthy found it very distasteful. He was very much against it. And however, later on he’s going to have to accommodate it. Now what happens is Carl Lutz goes to Hungary in 1942 as the Swiss consul. And you’ve got to remember by '42 the Nazis have already begun The Final Solution, as they euphemistically called the Jewish problem. Horthy did not allow, even though there were restrictions against the Jews, he did not allow the bulk of Hungarian Jewry to be deported at this stage. Some Jews were deported, those who had fled into Hungary. And those who went into labour battalions. So thousands of them did die. But whereas, and we’re talking, what are we talking about? We’re talking comparative horror here. But if you think of what was happening to Jews in Poland, Jews in many other countries, but Horthy is not giving his Jews up to Hitler.

He did agree the number of Jews could be dispatched for labour service. But then what happens is by the beginning of 1940, and what, what Carl Lutz does, by the way, is he manages, he’s working with the Jewish agency in Palestine. It’s not just going to that… He met up with in Palestine, he’s working with the agency that’s actually in Switzerland, the headquarters were in Switzerland. And he manages to provide 8,000 transit visas to get children out of Hungary to Palestine. And he’s got a lot of contacts. So he, and he is not alone in this. There are going to be other representatives of consulates also helping. Now by the winter of 1943, the beginning of 1944, it was obvious that Germany could be losing the war. And what happens is Hitler summons Horthy to a meeting, Horthy departs by train. He has a meeting with Hitler, a Klessheim Castle with him goes Edward Veessenmayer, who was Ribbentrop advisor in the East and the New Reich ministry and Plenipotentiary in Hungary. And along with him was Carlton Bruner. Carlton Bruner, of course, had taken over after the death of Heidrich. And there’s a meeting at Klessheim Castle. As Horthy on his way back to Hungary eight German divisions crossed the border. They do not trust that the Hungarian alliance will hold. So on March the 19th, when Horthy arrives back in Budapest, he’s greeted by a German guard of honour. The government resigns and they put in place a puppet government. Horthy was advised to resign by his conservative colleagues. He says this, “I’m still an admiral who will defend the honourable men and women in this country who have trusted me blindly. Who will defend the Jews and the refugees if I leave my post? I may not be able to defend everything, but I believe I can still be of great help to our people.

I can do more than anyone else.” So the point is, he does stay in power. And this is where we get to a terrible, terrible problem because Eichmann and his cohorts enter Hungary and beginning in May, 1944, from May to July, 1944, when he is regent, but with no power, what we see happening is nearly 500,000 Jews from the countryside actually rounded up and they are sent to Auschwitz, where Auschwitz is murdering 12,000 people a day. And the other issue, and this is an issue of the world, so many people knew what was happening. Don’t forget, there’d been the minute silence back in December, 1942 for the murdered Jews of Europe. Characters escaped from Auschwitz. I’ve already mentioned, if you think of the characters of Jan Karski, when we looked at Poland, we looked at Jan Karski who smuggled himself into the Warsaw ghetto and to a transit camp on the edge of Belzec. So basically the world knew Rudy Verber, an extraordinary character had escaped from Auschwitz, and the information had been sent. So the point is, it’s coming from a lot of sources. There are even articles in the press, and it’s at this period when the Germans are losing the war that they ratchet it up. It’s important to remember this. But the people who are going to take power, the people who are really the most ghastly of all are of course the Arrow Cross. Before, can we have a look at the Arrow Cross, please? Oh, let’s have a look at Edmond Vessenmayer. I’ve already mentioned him to you. And his story I think it’s important we tell these stories. He was the son of a school teacher. He studied political science in Munich. Munich of course, was the cradle of Nazism. And he taught at the technical university. He was a brilliant logistics man. He joins the Nazi party in 1932, the SS in '34, and he had a high position in the Department of Economic Affairs.

Now again, there’s a huge difference between a big brain, academic education, and moral compass. And he is another example of a very highly educated man who at the same time, who was totally devoid of any kind of morality. He was involved in establishing key economic connections between Austrian and Germany. He worked on the Austrian, he worked on the economic dismemberment of Czechoslovakia, making Slovakia subservient to Germany. He served on the advisory committee of the German transportation firm, Schenker AG, which played a key role in moving Nazi plunder throughout Europe Between '38 and '45. He had very highly placed influential business friend. And he had been up to his neck in the persecution of Croatian and Serbian Jews. And he was involved in the operation to overthrow the Hungarian government and to be part of putting the Arrow Cross in pace. And from March to October, he is one of the key characters in the final solution of the Hungarian Jewish question. This is actually one of his memos. 13th of June, 1944 to the Foreign Office, “Sprout transport Jews from the Carpathian Mountains and Transylvanian space with a total of 289,357 Jews in 92 complete trains of 45 cars.” I mean, he’s talking about nearly 300,000 people. 15th of June, '44 to Ribbentrop telegram, “Some 340,000 Jews delivered to the Reih, final number will reach 900,000.” That’s the amount of Jews who were in Hungary at the time. You know, at the end of the war, he was caught. He received a 20 year sentence, it was reduced to 10. And in 1951, he was released through the intervention of John J. McCloy, the US High Commissioner to Germany. And I’ll be talking about him when we get onto the American series. And after his release, he worked in Tehran for Toepfer company, and he died in Darmstadt in 1977. Where is our justice? Now, let’s have a look at the wonderful Arrow Cross Party because they are the ones who are going to have a lot more power.

Now let’s have a look at a statement of the Arrow Cross. “I order all officials of the civil administration and its police officers to do their utmost to safeguard and maintain good order, discipline, and public safety. The orders issued and published by means of posters have been inspired by an overriding sense of responsibility to maintain public services and necessities and a life as nearly normal as possible, as well as being guided by certain principles and necessities. As regards to the Jewish question, I’m a position to state that we will definitely solve it. The solution, even if it is inexorable, such as the Jews deserve in view of their past and present behaviour.” Where does this hatred come from? “The solution of this problem is the business of the state. I wish to warn all Jews and those who serve their interests, that every authority in the state is keeping a close watch on them. I do not differentiate between Jews belonging to the Catholic, Protestant, or Israelite churches. There can be no converts in the world of race. I deal only with the Jewish race. I will not acknowledge the validity of safe conduct and foreign passport issued. They are subject to the control of the state. If any Jew should attempt to do anything against the Hungarian state, the army of our allies, or the civil population, or to commit any crimes whatsoever, I will inflict such replies upon the Jews.” Now the party, can we go on please? The party had been created by a man called Ferenc Szalasi. In fact, he had an agrarian party. He was anti-capitalist, he was anti-Marxist. The party drew its numbers from army officers, journalists, middle ranking government bureaucrats, county officials, students, intellectuals, impoverished, agrarian, proletariat, the dispossessed, the unhappy. And in 1939, he did poll 25% of the vote. And the what is interesting though is Horthy put him in prison for a while and Horthy had absolutely no truck for him.

And but he, what happens is Horthy, look, you have this period between April and the end of summer when you have these terrible deportations, but it’s an open secret and there are protests from the Pope. Would you believe he finally protests, the Americans, the British, there’s a lot of protests now, and Horthy realises the war is coming to an end and he wants to make a deal with the allies. And what happens is the Germans operation Panzerfaus, they send a guy called Otto Skorzeny, who is a real extraordinary character, who later on, by the way, worked for the Mossad. He was a daring-do character. He went in and he captured Horthy son and held him to ransom. Horthy, power is taken away from Horthy and power in the end lands with the Arrow Cross. Now, Horthy manages to stop the deportations for a time, but when the Arrow Cross take over the state in October of 1944, and they’re going to stay in control really till the Red Army reached Budapest the end of December, January '45. But they’re still in control. And it’s in those last months of the war that characters like Carl Lutzs come into their own. Let’s have a look at the characters who worked with him. There you see the characters Dome Sztojay. Can we go on please? I’m just going to, Laszlo Endre. They were all killed by the people’s, they were killed at the end of the war. They were all, they were executed. Endre, let’s see their faces, Baky facing the People’s Tribunal. That was the end of the war. Yeah, can we go on please? Yeah, Andor Jaros, so basically what happens is the deportations are stopped on July the seventh. Horthy attempts to make a separate Armistice it’s aborted on the 15th of October, 1944. And a coalition led by the Arrow Cross is formed. And it’s during this time that they try how hard to resume the murders. Now it’s fascinating on one evil level because Himmler by this time is trying to negotiate to take over the German states and to make a separate piece with Britain and America and France against Russia. He recalls Eichman.

Eichman disobeys orders, and he goes back to Budapest. And what happens is 80,000 Jews in his, and he helps with this, are expelled from Hungary. Most of them were women. And in a severe, they were sent on this severe murderous march back to the Austrian border. Because, look, Auschwitz is going to be liberated in January '45. This isn’t how the deportation is going to come. And tragically many of them died en route. Now, the other point was the Arrow Cross was absolutely extraordinarily cruel. They would, now, I’m not going to tell you, they went in for shootings, torture, against the Jewish community. And it’s at this time that some extraordinary characters come into their own. And can we have a look at them? Because it’s not just, of course, the extraordinary Raoul Wallenberg who I’ve talked about when I talked about Sweden. His date is down as 1945 because he disappeared into Russia. And we don’t actually know where he was murdered, but he saved thousands of people from neutral Sweden by giving them safe contacts. But there are others that I want to bring to your attention before we go back to Carl Lutz. Can we see the next one, please? Here you see Angel Sanz-Briz. He’d been born, he was Spanish, he was a francoist. He took the nationalist side in the Civil War. His first diplomatic post was to Cairo. And in 1942, he sent a Budapest. Now he and his assistance, because it’s an open secret now, they begin to fake papers to save Jews. He recently received permission from his government to issue 200 permits, but he enlarged it to 5,200.

And he convinced the Hungarian authorities that Spain had given citizenship to descendants of Jews expelled in 1492. In fact, Spain’s dictator had issued that degree back in 1924. It had been cancelled in 1930. But the Hungarians didn’t know that. He goes on doing this right up until the approach of the Red Army, and he saves thousands of people. So these characters, look, he came from a right wing background. He was an aristocrat. He was born in Zaragoza. He just believed it was wrong. Can we go on please? Let’s have a look at Giorgio Perlasca. By the way, these characters are all honoured by . He was ambassador to Lema, Ambassador to Burm, Guatemala, and he was the first Spanish ambassador after the war. He worked in the Spanish consulate. And after the war, he was the first Spanish ambassador to China. He was ambassador to the Holy Sea. But he also was involved in giving out all these papers. Now, he’d been born in Padua. He was a supporter of the fascists, but he thought that these murderers were absolutely wrong. And he returns to Italy after the war. And he was found in 1897 by a group of Hungarians who had saved him. And in 1987, he was appointed a righteous amongst the nations. And after communism collapsed, he was given the Star of Merit in Hungary. He worked with Perlasca. So they were very, very important individuals because I wanted to give you hope in this dark time. It’s not just Carl Lutz. It’s not just Wallenberg, it’s people that, by the way, the Papal Nuncio in Hungary was also helping. And let’s have a look at Laszlo Zemoski, who worked for the Spanish ambassador. I haven’t got a picture of him. He looked for property for protective houses because this is where the genius of Carl Lutz, also a Dutch diplomat who was working with them and also with Wallenberg, they set up safe houses. What Lutz does is he finds safe houses, many, many of them throughout Hungary, throughout Budapest.

And the most famous one is the Glass House. And what he does is he gives them Swiss papers just as Wallenberg gives Swedish papers. They were actually at the docks giving these papers. And as I said, it’s been estimated that Carl Lutz gave away, he saved the lives of about 60,000 people by setting up these safe houses, these Swiss houses. And there’s another story of his personal bravery. When the Arrow Cross was shooting Jews into the Danube, he went down to the Danube. He was a big, tall, strong looking man in his very sleek car. And he sees a woman shot into the Danube and she’s still alive. And he actually jumps in and rescues her in front of the Arrow Cross, who were terrified to do anything about it. And he saved her life. He also saved the life of a Jewish woman and her daughter. And after the war, after he divorced his wife, he actually married her and adopted her daughter. Now what is the results of bravery? When he went back to Switzerland, he was hauled over the coals by the Swiss authorities for exceeding his authority in giving out all these papers that saved so many thousands of people. In disgust, although he was acquitted by Swiss court in disgust, he gave up the diplomatic core and he became a lawyer. It was later that he was found by Jews, and he was, both he and his wife were honoured. But it’s fascinating because many of these incredibly brave people, they weren’t honoured in their lifetime. But what fascinates me, what makes them stick their necks out? I mean, he could have been shot by the Danube. And by the way, those of you who go to Hungary, it is an extraordinary memorial. So what interests me in these kind of terrible stories is when you look at Veesenmayer, well educated, civilised, loved music, what made him a monster? What made Lutz decent? And you know, we’re going through an acute time at the moment and people are being counted again. And it’s fascinating to work out what makes some people turn to the light and some people turn to the darkness. Let’s finish please by having a look at some of the memorials to Carl Lutz.

Now, there’s now a memorial to him in the Dohany Street Synagogue. It’s one of the largest synagogues in Europe next to the house of Theodor Herzl except Theodor Herzl’s house was destroyed, but Lutz’s name is with the other heroes. And there are the safe houses in Budapest with diplomatic plaques. So he was honoured, but I find it fascinating that they go back to their lives. Some of them didn’t even really think they’d done anything special. Like for example, Nicholas Winton, who saved so many, so many Czech children, he even more or less forgot about it. That’s the riddle that we have to unlock. What makes people turn to the light and what makes people turn to the dark? And talking personally, there’s something, by the way, before that, there’s something else. Obviously I have looked at Hungary in much detail, particularly the Kastner affair. And all those lectures are on the website, if any of you are interested. That’s why I skimmed it, because of course what happens, there was a rescue committee of Jews in Budapest, including a man called Komoly, who I know his nephew listens sometime. He was a great hero. He headed up the rescue committee and he was Kassner’s boss. The incredibly controversial Kassner. But I’ve got a lot of lectures on that, those of you who want to listen to them. But what I wanted to do today was to try and pull it all together. What was it about the Jews? They were very important in Hungarian history. Particularly in modern Hungary. Because in any society where there isn’t a very vibrant middle class, that’s where the Jews fit in. As a society became more and more fractured, they are seen as the other by anyone who has a discontent. And it leads of course to the rendering of the world. Now, how do we deal with Horthy in all of this? For some he is still a hero. For others, he’s a monster. He certainly, he’d lost his power. His son was kidnapped. But after the war, you know, he was helped. He had a close friend, the American ambassador, some wealthy Jews helped support him. So the world is full of these anomalies. Let’s, thank you. Let’s have a look at the questions.

Q&A and Comments:

This is from Eely. “I was an event with Lutz’s daughter at the Park East Synagogue. She wrote a book about her father, very interesting. Not many people in Switzerland are even aware of their Hebrew.”

Oh yes, Agnes Hirschi and , that’s a very good book, Rita yes. Now it’s fascinating, isn’t it? Because not only was they not aware of that he’s a hero. He was taken to court because he overstated his authority by issuing, by creating these seat safe havens for Jews. Can you imagine the desperation? Frank Houser, fairly common Swiss name. Yes, some lovely streets in Tel Aviv like this today. Yes and of course you’re beginning to see the Bauhaus buildings, aren’t you?

This is from Ellie. “My parents married and lived in Budapest until '44. They had a beautiful apartment. And my father ran a very successful business with very good pastry clients.” Oh, Ellie, wandering Jews.

Oh, Tommy, I’m so glad you are listening. I’m glad you chose to speak about him. L’s daughter, Agnes Siri commemorated her father in a recent films series, the 'Rescuers in Canada’.“ And of course Tommy was so helpful when we did all those sessions on Kassner. Of course, I’ve already mentioned that his uncle were incredibly brave man who was murdered by the Arrow Cross in January, 1945. There were attempts to save him. He was a real hero. Tommy, you should be proud.

Ah, Shelly wants to know about the Satmar. Well, the Satmar Rebbe went out on Kassner’s train. Now there were, I haven’t got time to talk about the religious differences amongst the Jews in Hungary.

Q: "Did non-Jews hate them because they thought religious Jews were two separate?”

A: Look, why do people hate? They hated those who converted. But if you want to hate, you hate. It doesn’t really matter what the Jews do, you know, it’s fascinating. It’s almost like an object, hatred. It doesn’t matter, you can be too religious, except no Kassner saved the Satmar Rebbe. Yeah, yes, Satmar is in Romania. Most of ‘em were actually in Romania. Yes, of course, those borders that kept on changing and Satmar reconstituted in America.

Q: Elliot, “How typical of Hungary to have an admiral in a landlocked country?”

A: Well, he was an admiral when he was part of the Habsburg empire, I suppose. But it’s quite funny.

This is good. This is from Dennis, “A book about many of the physicists, atomic scientists, film moguls, and photographers is "The Great Escape” by Kati Marton. A very good read.“ Yes, I’m hoping that my colleague, Mark Levine, who is writing a book on the Martians, we’ve already had one lecture on Szilard. I’m hoping that he will come in and talk about Edward Teller, because we have neglected these extraordinary individuals. And I have in the past lectured on Alexander Korda. It’s a fascinating story. Look, the European Jews who made it to Hollywood, who made it to England and changed British and American culture.

Yes, Anges, Rita, yes, it’s important. And you’ve given us the YouTube thing. This is Tommy, oh, lovely.

"My uncle had a meeting with Horthy Jr, who told him, 'I was born and brought up in anti-Semite, unimaginable for me to marry a Jewish contaminated blood. Then I entered the commercial world, found difficulties, but with Jewish help, I succeeded. I had a Jewish friend who knew how to sweeten those officials, who otherwise did not care for Hungarian trade successes. We all needed the Jew who were further national interests by looking after his own.’” Oh, Tommy, that is an incredible quote. Thank you very much for that.

Q: Joan, “Why wasn’t Veesenmayer executed?”

A: 10% of those guilty of crimes against humanity were brought to justice. You’ve got to remember, at the end of the war, communism was our big enemy. We had to go on and there was not enough justice. There were people who, like Simon Weisenthal, who I’ve lectured on, and also there was Din that stayed behind in Europe and Din justice. But people do not necessarily get their desserts in this world.

Q: “Did the Pope finally protest the killing of Jews or just Jews who converted to Christianity?”

A: I don’t think he used the word Jews. Actually, Shelly, I’m going to check that for you before our next meeting. Pious the 12th has a lot to answer for. And I’m going to stick my head against the above the parapet and say that. I really get very angry when the papacy makes pronouncements against the Jews. They only forgave us for the crime of for all generations in the early sixties. And they still said the Jews of their time were guilty. So when the Pope calls for a ceasefire, I don’t take him very seriously. Sorry, that’s my own personal opinion. It’s not the opinion of lockdown.

Shelly, “Thank you, Rita”. Yes, the Arrow Cross were executed. Look, the communists took over. The Russians, you see the Russians, it’s also quite complicated because in the end, a lot of Hungarians escaped, a lot of Hungarian fascists escaped to the West because Hungary becomes part of the communist axis. And Russia is our big enemy. Now, Stalin was very complex because how do you deal with a Stalin? He had no morality at all in any degree, but he had to rule countries. So ironically, he had to use some of the fascists. So the issue of the Jews was kind of kept below the surface. I remember in Poland, which was similar for this particular, in this instance, when I first visited Auschwitz under the communism, there was no, it was for the a million Poles and 3 million of other nations who died there. Didn’t mention the word Jew. It’s a complicated story.

Susan, “The memorial of Danube is the most poignant.” It’s heartbreaking. I agree with you. It’s absolutely heartbreaking. If you’ve got the stomach to do it though, what is very interesting is to visit Vienna and then take the hydrofoil to Budapest. They were two great centres of cosmopolitan life and of Jewish life. Today, of course, Hungary is very reactionary, again.

Serena says, “I think free choice and good education, indoctrination term people to the light. Free choice and evil propaganda are built on lies turn people to deep, dark, evil choices.” There’s a wonderful quote of Einstein’s where at the end of the first World War, I may have told you this, but it stays in my mind. He said that he blames the teachers who for the past 50 years had indoctrinated German students with nationalism. The education system, why don’t we face it? It’s not fit for purpose. Certainly not in Britain, as far as I’m concerned. You need to completely revamp. It’s not just teaching facts. You’ve got to teach kids what it means to be a citizen. What it means to be a human being. And I really think that, as I said, I think this awful time we’re going through, I think the boil is about to be lanced because a lot of Britts are really angry with what’s going on. They feel the social contract has been broken. And if a million Muslims march on the Saturday of the 11/11, I think there’s going to be hell. Unfortunately, some of those people who will create hell are very right wing. So, ah, what can we say?

This is Ellie, “I’m alive because of the Kassener tree. My parents and aunt and uncles were on that tree.” Ellie, as I said, I’d lectured at length on this. It’s such a complicated story, isn’t it? “Are you aware of the book "Budapest ‘44”? It’s about, yeah, I know of it, Abigail, yes.

This is from Celine, “My grandparents lived at my Minerva Street, 130 metres from the embassy on 3 Minerva Street. A lot of fighting went there during the seat of Budapest.” Oh, thank you Celine. Yes, it was a terrible, terrible time.

Q: “Is the website up and running?”

A: Yes, Renee, it is. And there you see it, the website. And it’s been done beautifully, bless Wendy. What would we do without Wendy? She’s such a remarkable person. And we now have we, and I’d also like to thank all my colleagues and also the redoubtable Carly, who is working so hard behind the scenes with our people. You have no idea. So I’m publicly thanking Wendy and the people who work with her like Carly and I know Josh in Israel and basically all the staff. There’s a lot of people helping and helping and helping and helping. And also I’d like to thank a lot of my non-Jewish colleagues who have been absolutely marvellous. When I’m down, they phone me up. They just talk me, particularly wonderful William and wonderful Helen Fry.

So on that note, I’m going to leave you. I wish you a good evening and we’ve got a brilliant lecture at six o'clock. Thank you all very much and let’s hope that things will simmer down a bit. And we obviously pray for our friends in Israel. God bless everyone.