Glynnis Breytenbach
Shortcomings in the South Africa Justice System and How to Fix Them
Glynnis Breytenbach - Shortcomings in the South Africa Justice System and How to Fix Them
- Yeah, welcome back. Today we are very fortunate to have my good friend, Glynis Breytenbach on who will be talking about the shortcomings in South Africa, the justice system and how to fix them. Advocate Glynis Breytenbach is a former prosecutor for the National Prosecuting Authority of South Africa, and a member of Parliament for the Democratic Alliance, the DA. She’s South Africa’s shadow Minister of Justice at the moment. Glynis, thanks a million. Hi.
Hi.
Thank you very much, I know how busy you are and I know it’s been going on. I just landed back in New York myself today from South Africa. And I just really want to thank you very much for taking time out of your very, very busy schedule to talk to Lockdown University.
It’s a great pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Thank you. And so when you’re ready, over to you.
Okay, thank you. So good evening to everybody on the platform. The topic that we agreed, I would discuss was the shortcomings in the Criminal Justice System in South Africa and more importantly, how to fix them. At the end of the talk, I’d like to also talk a little bit about the upcoming elections and perhaps South Africa’s stance on the conflict in the Middle East. So, first of all the shortcomings in the Criminal Justice System in South Africa of course are a subject matter that consumes my days and sometimes my nights and remains, in my view, one of the most important issues that hamper progress in our country. For purposes of this discussion, when I refer to the Criminal Justice System, it includes the National Prosecuting Authority, the South African Police Service and the Department of Correctional Service. All three of these hugely important departments are interrelated, they’re interdependent and the performance or lack thereof, affects the performance of each of them. I’ve had the great privilege of working in this environment for my entire adult life. I’ve seen it at its very best and at its very worst firsthand. And for those of you who have not lived it, I would like to just give you a very short history of how we got to this very unsatisfactory place where we now find ourselves. So the National Prosecuting Authority of South Africa is an independent body that came about with the National Prosecuting Authority Act in 1998 with a new constitution. It’s obviously experienced growing pains. It’s a relatively new organisation. The second national director, Vusi Pikoli put the new National Prosecuting Authority on an upwards trajectory that we had not previously experienced and we will struggle to achieve that again.
When Pikoli refused to bend to the political will of the ANC in the Jackie Selebi prosecution, he was unceremoniously dumped. The director of Special Operations, more colloquially known as the Scorpions, was a joint unit within the National Prosecuting Authority, combining investigative and prosecutorial skills to combat large scale corruption and organised crime. Very successful, very effective, was growing, but getting to be really, really a serious crime busting organisation. Was disbanded because members of Parliament and members of cabinet had been caught abusing travel privileges. And they did not like being held accountable. They clearly held the view that the rule of law was something that should apply to other South Africans, but not to them. So Pikoli was fired for prosecuting Simelane and refusing to withdraw the matter, although a lot of pressure was placed on by Thabo Mbeki and the Scorpions were disbanded because they were frankly too good at their job. At the same time and by design, the prosecutorial and investigative ability of the National Prosecuting Authority was systematically hollowed out. Specialist units were targeted and disbanded and expertise that had been built up really over decades was purposefully dismantled and mediocrity was openly encouraged in a top-down approach. Menzi Simelane was appointed after as national director after Vusi Pikoli. He was completely and utterly unfit to hold the position. The Democratic Alliance then went to court to challenge his appointment on the grounds of rationality and we won. He was declared unfit to hold office. He was removed, but he was followed by first Nomgcobo Jiba and then Shaun Abrahams, both of whom were considerably worse than he was and continued with the destruction of the National Prosecuting Authority. At the same time, the South African Police Service were suffering the same fate. Experienced members with decades of service were paid to leave the service early. They were actively encouraged with a financial incentive to leave the service early. The result is clear for all of us to see.
We have a police force that barely functions, lacks experience, it lacks expertise on every level and it’s presided over by a minister who stumbles from one idiotic public pronouncement to the next. We have currently Lieutenant Generals in the South African Police Service who have never ever investigated a case or carried a case docket. Correctional Services, the place where the product of the NPA and the police end up and the government department was by far the biggest budget was placed under the control of Arthur Fraser. He was moved there from the State Security Agency where he had been responsible for massive fraud and corruption in the running of a parallel intelligence pan network. He bled millions from state coffers and the money ended up of course in the coffers of the ANC and members of the ANC. He prompted did the same thing at Correctional Services. He appointed the Bosasa Group to milk the department of literally billions annually. Again, money found its way into ANC coffers and the pockets of ANC members. It’s important to understand that the Criminal Justice System as it exists today, was rendered incapable of fulfilling its function by the carefully planned and executed actions of success of ANC Governments. First of Thabo Mbeki and then perfected the art by Jacob Zuma. The current President Ramaphosa, who talks a lot about combating corruption, has done a little to factually assist in the fight against it. He talks the talk, but fails to walk the talk. He has not overtly interfered politically in the functioning of the Criminal Justice System, but his government has starved to resources, rendering its incapable of functioning properly and it’ll take decades to recover at the current rate. In the NPA currently, there’s a lack of experience and importantly a lack of confidence.
Many prosecutors with decades of experience have left for a variety of reasons. Nothing has been done to retain the lost institutional knowledge and knowhow. Training is all, but non-existent. But training alone doesn’t help. The practical application of the law requires practise and there is no one to demonstrate how it should be done. There is no one who has prosecution knowledge and also to the confidence to take on legal heavyweights from the bar. The fight is lost long before it’s begun. There is simply no one to lead the way. And all that is remedy the NPO will continue to function at a far below power level. Currently, the state capture matters and other high profile corruption matters are being outsourced to private practitioners. This is clearly not ideal as prosecutors are specialists criminal litigators and should not need the assistance of practitioners who are not. The police are in a far worse off state than the National Prosecuting Authority with regards to experience and ability and are bluntly put not capable in investigating any serious crimes, let alone serious commercial crime, corruption and racketeering. The investigative process often lacks efficiency and effectiveness. They have insufficient resources, inadequate training and a lack of coordination amongst different law enforcement agencies contributes to this weakness. South Africa has recently been placed on the grey list by the Financial Action Task Force. This has serious implications for our economy and one of the biggest reasons is our Criminal Justice Systems dysfunctionality and the inability of South Africa to investigate and hold accountable organised crime, racketeering, cross-border financial crime and human trafficking. And until we can get our act together, we will not get off that grey list anytime soon. Despite the platitudes offered by the government that it’s not serious to be grade listed, which of course is not true and that we are on our way to coming off the grey list, which of course is also not true.
The deeply dysfunctional Criminal Justice System is barely ticking over. It’s certainly not capable of shooting the lights out in any challenging prosecutions. It’s hampered by the inability of the police to do their work with any kind of efficiency. And the prosecution is simply not able to bridge that gap. So the position is a dire one. Any country that any democracy that wishes to function, any democracy that wishes to attract investment has got to be able to demonstrate accountability for criminal acts, has got to demonstrate that the rule of law is paramount, has got to provide some sort of security that your investment will be safe. And if you’re ripped off that there will be consequences. Currently, South Africa is simply not in a position to do that with any kind of confidence. So, we have the elections in May next year coming up. They’re hugely, hugely important elections for a variety of reasons. One of those reasons is that the Criminal Justice System must be attended to, must be attended to with some urgency and will not be attended to by the current government. So opposition parties in South Africa have formed a coalition pact and most of the opposition parties in South Africa have joined this pact in an effort to unseat the ANC in the elections in May next year. If that happens, then of course we can immediately start fixing everything that’s a wrong in South Africa. Not an easy task and certainly not a task that will take any short space of time. It’s a long and hard uphill battle, but it can be done. And one of the important areas that need attention is the Criminal Justice System and how we would go about fixing it. So there’s no point in sitting around and bleeding about the position that we find ourselves in. We’ve got to believe that in May next year we’ll be called upon to rectify the situation. We need to have a plan.
So how would we go about fixing this terrible state of affairs in our Criminal Justice System? Well, for starters, both the National Prosecuting Authority and the South African Police must be overhauled, discipline must be reinstalled and a work ethic installed in order for them to function. It would have to be done simultaneously in order for any discernible difference to be felt. Strong, ethical leadership is called for something that is currently sadly lacking. The corrupt elements within the National Prosecuting Authority are well-known, but they’re still there. And they must unceremoniously be shown the door. The National Prosecuting Authority has just recently cancelled its aspirant prosecutor’s training programme as a result of a lack of funds. Of course, the training of prosecutors it’s paramount. It’s one of the most important aspects of the National Prosecuting Authority. Training of the judiciary is also sadly lacking. Those two areas will have to be attended to and prioritised and court hours have to be dramatically increased. Currently South African court sit on average for one hour and 10 minutes a day. You can’t get a lot of work done in an hour and 10 minutes. There are many, many retired prosecutors, magistrates and judges in South Africa who have expressed their willingness to assist as trainers, as mentors, helping their less experienced counterparts, that express their willingness to do this with no remuneration. And yet the current government has ignored these offers. The National Prosecuting Authority has not made use of these offers, makes absolutely no sense. There’s a massive well of goodwill.
There’s a massive well of knowledge and know-how that that can be imparted and they simply don’t want to do it. So that would be one of the first things that we do. We would beef up the training of prosecutors and magistrates and judges and make use of the institutional knowledge that has left those organisations. But that is definitely still available to assist. There’s currently a massive backlog of cases, both criminal and civil that simply has to be cleared. Files are left piled in passageways, in cupboards, on top of cupboards. A quick visit to any court or any Master’s office in South Africa will show you that there are so many matters that are simply never going to be attended to because of the chaos that reigns. This backlog simply has to be cleared. With hard work and discipline it can be done. We would implement night courts. It’s been done before and it’s worked very well and it can be done again. Night courts are particularly effective because they operate in hours that are not business hours, which frees people who are employed up to actually come to court without any inconvenience. And in the past they have been used with great success and there’s absolutely no reason why they shouldn’t be used again. These suggestions have been made to the current Minister of Justice and he has done nothing about implementing them. Recruitment must be prioritised based on ability and merit, not on cronyism and who you know. There are many law graduates in South Africa who are unemployed, but because they’re not well connected, they struggle to find employment.
There’s no shortage of human resources in South Africa in the legal fraternity. Those positions could be filled very easy with easily, with very competent and very willing to learn young people. We would have to absolutely enhance funding and resource allocation. The National Prosecuting Authority has been systematically and purposefully starved of resources. Its budget gets cut year on year. The same applies to South African Police. The increased funding for the Criminal Justice System is the only way to ensure adequate resources for investigators, prosecutions, court operations and prison facilities. All of those budgets continue to be cut in order to provide for bailouts for the completely bankrupt and defunct South African Airways, for the passenger rail services in South Africa, which does not exist. So huge billions get poured into bailouts for state owned enterprises while the money that should go to the Criminal Justice System is cut to fund those absolutely pointless bailouts that take us absolutely nowhere. So reprioritizing funding for the Criminal Justice System would be a priority for a new government and would have the effect of ensuring adequate resources for those very important functions. Currently, the South African Police services, nor the National Prosecuting Authority have any access to forensic capabilities. All of those requirements have to be outsourced at a huge cost. A new government, we would certainly invest in improving forensic laboratories.
The backlog is currently over 20,000 cases for specimens for testing. At some point it becomes impossible to even make use of the samples that should be tested. So forensic laboratories are a big priority and investment in equipment and training to expedite the processing of evidence and reduce delays in investigations and trials. Again, if the money, if the finances are reprioritized, if a proper funding of these departments is done, there’s absolutely no reason why the Criminal Justice System cannot be brought back online and function optimally in a relatively short space of time. South Africa’s Case Management Systems are archaic. Everything is done still by hand. A new government would introduce modern Case Management Systems. We would streamline and track cases that would have the effect of reducing the backlog and ensure efficient handling of criminal cases. We have introduced recently a system, an electronic system called Caselines, which allows for the electronic management of case systems. Unfortunately, of course South Africa has no electricity. And so load shedding is the order of the day. All of these require a constant power source. And the ANC government has proven themselves incapable of fixing the electricity problem in South Africa. A new government would certainly be able to address this issue and reasonably efficiently and effectively in a short space of time. And it would present no problem to implement electronic case management systems, both with conventional methods of producing electricity and other methods that are more green gas and sun. At the moment every department works in a silo.
There’s no collaboration, no coordination. All the different agencies in the criminal justice stakeholders’ table function independently and without any consultation. Of course, that leads to massive problems. Things fall between the cracks. Cases don’t get attended to, dockets disappear. And the archaic handwritten system is simply just not cutting it in the 21st century. So a much better coordination, much better cooperation between the stakeholders and the Criminal Justice System and moving them into the 21st century would have the effect of dealing with many of these systemic problems that currently exist. One of the biggest ways of dealing with the crime problem in South Africa is by way of the establishment of an Anti-Corruption Commission. This legislation is far down the road in the pipeline. It has been through all of the drafting processes. It’s about to be introduced into parliament. It’s a DA initiative. The Anti-Corruption Commission would establish an Independent Chapter 9 Institution, which is separate from the National Prosecuting Authority. It would be a joint operation based on the model of the Director of Special Operations or the Scorpions. But better in that it is outside of the National Prosecuting Authorities that cannot be closed down quite so easily. The Scorpions were closed down by a simple majority in Parliament. And the reason for moving the Anti-Corruption Commission out of the NPA would be simply to prevent that.
As a Chapter 9 Institution it needs a two thirds majority of a voting parliament to dismantle it. And a two thirds majority something that no political party is ever going to have in South Africa again anytime in the near future. So it would bulletproof it against political interference, would give it the required independence and security of tenure to go after whomsoever transverse the law, including government, including high flyers, including members of parliament, including connected politicians. There could be no comeback for doing your job. So we have proposed the establishment of this Chapter 9 Institution. It’ll require a constitutional amendment. It would be staffed with investigative forensic and prosecutorial skills to deal with cases, particularly those cases that emanating from the Zondo Commission of high level organised crime, high level racketeering, high level corruption and the state capture matters. Such an institution would ensure that these matters are dealt with, with the required expertise, also the required urgency and would then free the NPA up to deal with the multitude of other crimes, which it is responsible and allow to deal with massive backlog of cases that needs to be dealt with. So we hold the view that a Anti-Corruption Commission would provide a lot of relief in the Criminal Justice System. Another way to fix the Criminal Justice System would be to expand the restorative justice programmes. At the moment we make very little use of restorative justice approaches that focus on rehabilitation. Correctional Services has the biggest budget of all the departments in South Africa, and it spends less than 4% of its budget on its main focus, which should be rehabilitation.
We would focus on rehabilitation, reconciliation and community involvement in addition to purely punitive measures to address the root causes of crime and reduce recidivism. South Africa has one of the highest rates of recidivism in the world. We need to strengthen our witness protection suite of legislation, robust witness protection programmes to encourage witnesses to come forward without fear of retaliation and provide essential testimony for successful prosecutions. At the moment, witnesses are largely at risk and whistleblowers in South Africa are particularly at risk with more than one having been murdered before they’ve been able to give evidence in court. There’s very little in the way of protection for witnesses and whistleblowers currently. The Democratic Alliance has promoted a another piece of legislation through Parliament that will address these issues, will provide proper protection for witnesses in a witness protection programme and will provide proper security and protection for whistleblowers, including financial incentives to do so. Of course, with many checks and balances to weed out the chancres and would also provide remuneration for investigative journalism if that resulted in a successful prosecution. We need to enhance the access to legal representation in South African courts. At the moment, access to legal representation is not so easy, particularly for individuals from disadvantaged backgrounds. Our legal aid programme currently is underfunded, under-resourced and really overstretched.
We would in fact beef up a flow of funds to legal aid to improve legal aid programmes and also incentives for pro bono services. We would also look at alternative sentencing options. We need to expand diversion programmes and alternative sentencing options for low level offenders. We have in, so we’re currently minimum sentence legislation, which is problematic. It is caused many long-term sentences of imprisonment that are not always 100% called for, which has exacerbated the overcrowding problem in our prisoners. And our prisons are currently overcrowded by 147%. This leads to a whole lot of systemic problems inside prisons. It makes rehabilitation more difficult. And in South Africa currently, quite frankly, if you go to prison, it’s not going to the University of Crime. You definitely don’t come out a better person. But you do come out a better and more informed and more erudite criminal. There’s no question about that. Prison overcrowding needs to be addressed. There are various strategies that can be implemented. There are successful programmes in prisons internationally that deal with overcrowding. South Africa needs to learn from those institutions. At the moment, South Africa does nothing to attend to the overcrowding problem. And it only leads to an increased likelihood of people re-offending. Just recently, in order to allow Jacob Zuma to escape the fact that he had to return to prison and finish his sentence in accordance with the judgement of the constitutional court, the president announced a remission programme where over 15,000 inmates have now been granted remission or early release on their sentences just so that one man didn’t have to go to prison. A lot of of these early remission inmates have been dumped in big cities around the country. And some were dumped just down the road from me here in Cape Town. When I went to see them and discussed how they’d been released with them, they indicated that they had been brought here, dumped here.
They had no clothes, they had no job, they had no food, they had nowhere to go. Their own families had rejected them. They don’t want them back. And so they were put on a street corner and left there with absolutely no support. And of course the crime rate in the areas where they’ve been dumped has obviously spike because they have nowhere to go. They have nowhere to live, they have nothing to eat and they resorted to crime already. So they’ll be back in prison within the month. And this entire debacle has come about as a result of president Ramaphosa ensuring that he’s mate, Jacobs Zuma didn’t spend any more time in prison. We need to improve victim support services. We provide comprehensive and specialised support services for victims of crime, including counselling, legal assistance and access to compensation to ensure their needs are adequately addressed. There’s a reasonably topical issue in South Africa at the moment is the Thabo Bester escaped from maximum security prison in Bloemfontein. The fact of his escape is under investigation. Of course, the fact that he was out of prison for over a year living the life in Hyde Park and shopping at Thrupps, while the Criminal Justice System players knew that he was out of prison. So the Minister of Justice knew that he had escaped, the Minister of Police, knew that he escaped, Commissioner of Correctional Services knew that he had escaped and they did nothing about it. They made no effort to investigate the matter and they made no effort at all to inform the victims of his crime that he was in fact out of prison. He’s a serial rapist and murderer.
And they made no effort to inform or protect his victims. When confronted with this clearly inadequate response, they apologised and a month later they released two convicted rapists from prison in the Eastern Cape who had slit the throat of a woman, raped her multiple times, stabbed her 37 times, left her for dead. She miraculously survived. And they were released on parole by the same Minister of Justice, also with no consultation and not informing her that they’d been released. So there’s a serious problem here that needs to be addressed. Victim support is a non-existent issue at the moment. Community.
Can I just and ask how do they get away with this?
Well, when Thabo Bester escaped, we had an inquiry in parliament. All the ministers were brought to Parliament. They had to answer a series of questions. They were wholly under prepared and their responses were inadequate. And all Ronald Lamola, the Minister of Justice did, was shrugged his shoulders and say how sorry, we could have done better. But it’s completely meaningless against the background of a month later letting out the two rapists of Alison Botha without any consultation with her, didn’t inform her, didn’t consult her and both of them had been threatening her from prison for the entire time that they were in prison. They shouldn’t be out on parole. They’re a danger to society. It’s an accident waiting to happen. And when it does, Lamola will be held personally responsible, but that won’t help whoever the unfortunate victim is ‘cause you can’t put toothpaste back in a tube.
So it’s just a cycle. So Glynis I was want to ask you, I wanted to ask you, are these, are you, you are highlighting this, all these issues, are you protected yourself?
Protected from what?
Well, you’ve been very brave and very outspoken in the past. I know, but I mean, I’m fearful for you and I guess one does have to have a voice, but you don’t, do you feel nervous?
I don’t feel nervous at all. I have two very large dogs who can have whatever’s left of anybody when I’m finished with them.
I know that. And what about radicalization in prisons? Because I was shocked. This weekend I’ve been reeling actually.
Yeah, well, I mean, prisons in South Africa are just a, they really are the university of crime. So you get a young offender who goes in to prison for a not very serious offence. He’s locked up. There’s no, there’s no discerning for that extent of time. You come out of prison, you won’t get another job. So you re-offend, and every time you go back, you learn more. You improve your criminality and you come out a more accomplished criminal. It’s a vicious cycle and it needs to be broken. And the only way that it can be broken is if we pay proper attention to rehabilitation in prisons, which is not done now. They spend less than 4% of their budget on rehabilitation, which is their core function.
Right. Well, it’s not their focus. And I’m sorry that I interrupted you, but I also wanted to,
Are there any questions that I need to answer before I go on? I’m quite happy to, I’m nearly finished.
Yeah. And also just, okay, why don’t you finish and then I actually wanted to speak you about load shedding and small coalitions and other issues, which we’ve discussed many, many times. But I’ll hand hand back to you and then back to questions. Thanks.
Okay. So, I’m nearly done. We need to strengthen, we need to promote anti-corruption measures, implement robust anti-corruption measures within the Criminal Justice System, including oversight mechanisms, training on ethics and strict disciplinary actions against corrupt officials. Basically what we need, what we lack in South Africa is accountability for antisocial behaviour. And that needs to be implemented and rather quickly. Our saving grace up to now has been the judiciary, despite many travails, the judiciary has stood firm, it continues to be the only thing that functions in the Criminal Justice System. Even when appointments have been made that people have questioned, once those people are on the bench, they have chosen to go with the peer pressure is a wonderful thing. And so many appointments that were made that I think the government thought would be appointments favourable for them, have turned out not to be the case. Because once on the bench, of course judges have security of tenure and they have all chosen to their credit to implement the law and the constitution and remain that bastion of strength in the Criminal Justice System that the other players have not managed to hang on to. We need to review and update legislation. Currently, we have a lot of outdated legislation that is irrelevant, ineffective and not necessarily aligned with international best practise. So there’s a lot of work to be done on legislation, but if all of those things are attended to, and they can be attended to within a relatively short space of time. If a government comes into power in South Africa, that is not intent on emptying the coffers into their pockets, but using it for the purposes for which taxpayers pay tax, all of these things can be achieved in space of 12 to 18 months. Certainly the trajectory of the country can be turned around significantly in that space of time. So that’s more or less the end of the Criminal Justice System. And you wanted to ask about other things?
I did actually, I wanted to ask you about load shedding and do you think that they’re incapable of fixing Eskom or are they unwilling to do so and why?
Well, it’s an interesting question. The current government is incapable of fixing Eskom. The current government is incapable of fixing almost anything at all. So Eskom can be fixed and it can be fixed in a reasonable space of time. Certainly not quickly. The damage done to Eskom is huge. All of the expertise, all of the knowhow, all of the knowledge in Eskom has gone. There are very few people left with any kind of expertise. People were in fact actively encouraged to leave Eskom. People were paid financial incentives to take early retirement in order to make way for the appointment of ANC cronies who are not up to the job. And so as a result of that and there’s a lot of massive, massive, massive corruption in Eskom. It is a broken entity. To fix it, A it would’ve to be unbundled. So divided into three different sections. And of course the quickest way to fix Eskom would be to get an international company with the kind of expertise that’s required to run a power utility. And there are many such entities overseas to take it over, fix it up, run it for their own profit for 10 years. And after that, take it over again. That would be the quickest fix and it can be done. The Democratic Alliance has proposed a variety of fixes for Eskom, but certainly based on this model where knowhow must be important because we just don’t have it here.
I’m quite sure that you’ve suggested this to Cyril Ramaphosa. So my thoughts are, are ANC capitalising on load shedding and is it?
Well certainly they’re capitalising on load shedding and it’s used as a political tool. So you’ll find that load shedding is really bad and Eskom is in a terrible state of disrepair. So what’s currently happening is that the government is burning through billions and billions of Rands worth of diesel every month to keep power stations up and running because the coal production and delivery system has been destroyed by corruption. So they’re spending a lot of money on diesel money that we don’t actually have, money that should be spent on infrastructure, should be spent on education, should be spent on health, should be spent on beefing up the Criminal Justice System is being spent on, at the moment, keeping the lights on. But the lights are only kept on at certain times. Other times the load shedding is a hugely punishing schedule. We go to level six, level seven, level eight where you have 12 and 13 and 14 hours of load shedding a day. So you try running a business with no power for 14 hours a day. It’s not possible.
Yeah.
You simply, I mean, smaller businesses have all collapsed. They simply can’t carry on. Bigger businesses are just incurring more and more debt trying to keep up. And many, many, many people have lost their jobs, which again feeds into the system of poverty and of crime. So you’ll find that before a by-election in a certain area, suddenly load shedding will improve. It will become less.
[Wendy] Yeah.
Before the election next year there’ll be very little load shedding, if any. It’s already improving 'cause we’re coming closer to the election. So already we hover between sort of level three and level two. By the time May comes next year there’ll be no load shedding. We’ll be burning through billions of Rands that we absolutely can’t afford. But the load shedding will stop because the ANC doesn’t want to be punished at the polls for it.
Right.
Elected after May, I can tell you that Eskom will be one of the biggest headaches because there will be no more diesel and the power utility itself will have been destroyed.
So I just want to pivot now I want you to talk to you about the small coalition pact. How do successful do you think this will be? That’s the first question. And then I do want to leave time for the questions that are up. But I’d also like you just to talk about South Africa’s stance right now with regard to Israel and also and our current president, I mean who’s incredible disappointment and shock. And also if you could just talk about the importance of registering and voting. So I’d like thank you very much and then I’m going to, I think you, can you see the questions though? Do you want me to read them out?
No, let me just have a look for the chat. It’s what the question and answer function.
Yeah, it’s there. So I can read them out and look at them as you-
Yeah, it’s fine. Okay. So South Africa’s stance on Israel is a matter of deep concern for most South African. Certainly the government’s stance on Israel is South Africa’s official stance. And it is not supported by I think the vast majority of South Africans. Most South Africans and certainly ones that I’ve spoken to, take the view that Israel has a right to exist. Israel has an obvious right to defend itself. This was an unprovoked attack by terrorists. And you shouldn’t equate an organisation like Hamas with Palestinians in general. So the Democratic Alliance has released two statements on the issue. They’re both in stark contrast to the statements released by the ANC and by the official statements released by our Department of International Relations and Cooperation. Of course our Minister of International Relations and Cooperation is Naledi Pandor. And she is a virulent anti-Israeli proponent. The Democratic Alliance’s stances has been set out quite clearly that we support Israel’s right to exist, that we support Israel’s right to defend herself, that this attack was an unprovoked terrorist attack and Israel is entirely entitled to retaliate. That being said of course everyone regrets the loss of life of any innocent people. So any innocent civilians, any children, that they are the true victims of this conflict, which is so deeply distressing. But nothing can be said that will change the fact that an unprovoked attack took place at a time when Israel was celebrating an important festival and that they, women and children were slaughtered in their homes, in their beds. Children were decapitated, it’s unspeakable. And it was very obvious that Israel was going to retaliate.
They must retaliate. And to now bleed that your water has been cut off, your power has been cut off. Well who in the world is required to supply water and electricity to somebody who is a sworn enemy and wants to obliterate them. So we find certainly in South Africa, we find our country’s response, our country’s official response to be very, very disappointing. Very, very embarrassing. We are ashamed of it. And it’s not the view of the general South African population. As far as the elections are coming, are concerned. The importance thereof cannot be overstated. The elections will be in May, we don’t have a date yet, but it’ll probably be early May. This is such an important election for a variety of reasons. One of them is that the ANC has been in power for 30 years. It’s taken them 30 years to bring South Africa to her knees. Practically destroyed every functioning state-owned enterprise, infrastructure is crumbling. The Western Cape is a bubble of excellence. And the rest of South Africa is really crumbling and falling apart and has not been maintained in any fashion or form for the last 30 years. The ANC is polling the lowest that they’ve ever polled in the history of, they’ve done nothing but lose a power share since they came into power in 1994. And each election their majority has been eaten away at. But we’ve got one of the highest unemployment rates in the world. We’ve got the highest youth unemployment rate in the world. It’s something like at the moment, think the youth unemployment rate is well over 50%, which is a deeply distressing fact. Many South Africans don’t even try and find a job anymore. They’ve given up trying to look for work. The ANC have inflicted load shedding on a population that is already steeped in complete misery. So apart, along with the unemployment, the decline in the healthcare, our education system where 30% is now considered to be a pass rate, which is completely laughable. The ANC is currently polling at a very low in the forties. The coalition on the other hand is polling very well. Combined polling for the coalition is high in the 30%. As the election approaches, we are hoping that market share will go up. Many, many of the opposition parties have joined this coalition arrangement. It allows for the first credible opportunity to in fact unseat the ANC, remove them from power completely. It’s not a far-fetched hope, it’s attainable.
But even if it doesn’t, even if we don’t reach that goal, it’ll forever change the way that South Africa is governed if the ANC is brought below 50%. So they will be forced to work in conjunction with other parties in how the country is governed and particularly in how policies are developed and applied. So the election is hugely important. If however, people don’t register and people don’t vote and the ANC by some miracle retain a majority, I hold the view that it’ll be the very last democratic election that we ever have in this country. The ANC have been so terrified by losing their grip on power, they remain terrified by it and they become more desperate each day to hang onto power. That if they somehow maintain a majority, I can tell you right now that they will ensure that they are never placed in this position again. There will be no democratic election in South Africa after 2024 if the ANC are return to power with majority.
So it’s vital that all South Africans vote, but it’s not so simple. They have to register, that right? So maybe you can go through that process with us and what would you suggest is vital and how does one go about?
You can’t vote if you’re not registered and in a local government election, you can only register in the place where you live. And you can only vote in the place where you live. In a national government election, which is what’s happening in 2024, as long as you’re registered, you can vote anywhere, even abroad. So there are voting stations abroad where people can go to vote. And we are fighting very hard at the moment and we are probably going to have to litigate to increase the voting stations by a number, probably 20 or so in the bigger countries. So increased voting stations in the UK, increased them to a small degree in Europe, in Canada, increased them significantly in the United States and Australia and New Zealand where there are large concentrations of ex-South Africans living. But we still have South African citizenship who are eligible to vote in this election. And, but you must register. So in order to register you need an identity document of some form of passport and ID document, which can be obtained from Home Affairs without too much trouble. You can register online and the Independent Electoral Commission opened their online portal yesterday for registrations online. So you just, you go to, I’ll give you an easy address where you can go to register.
You know what we send this out, I’ll send it out. So if you’ll send it to me and then I’ll send it out to everyone.
So, you have got it. And it’s very easy. It’s a simple process to register, to vote online and then you vote at the nearest voting station wherever that may be. Currently, we understand that the number of voting stations completely inadequate abroad and that it’s impossible for people for instance, in Perth to fly to Canberra to go and vote. No one’s going to do that. So we’re fighting very hard for voting stations in Perth, in Sydney and in Brisbane as well as Canberra. In the United States, we’re looking to have more voting stations on the West coast and then certainly adding three or four or five on the East coast. So to make it more convenient and accessible for people to vote. But even if it’s not convenient and even if it’s not easily accessible, I really, really, really cannot urge people strongly enough to register and make an effort, however big that effort is, make the effort to go and vote 'cause we all care about South Africa and all of you come back here, all of you don’t live here, come back here for great holidays. You have family who live here, you have relatives who live here, you have friends who live here and they need you to vote because if you, it’s the end of South Africa as we know it.
Again I just want to echo what I was so shocked about is how Cyril Ramaphosa and the ANC have aligned themselves with Hamas. And so it is absolutely vital for all South Africans to register and to vote. And I’m going to make this a mission as well. So Glynis, I’m sorry I’m hogging all the questions. Just one last thing and very briefly so that you can answer some questions. How long is registration open for?
Oh, registration is open from now until about a week before the elections.
Okay, great. Alright, I’m going to hand over to you now to answer questions. Thanks everyone. Thank you.
Q&A and Comments:
Q - So the first question was, in what year did Mbeki act against the Scorpions?
A - The Scorpions were dissolved in, finally dissolved in, I think it was 2011, 2011 or 2012.
Q - What form does human trafficking take in South Africa at present?
A - Well, South Africa has a large population and a large rural population. Children are kidnapped. Young girls are kidnapped and taken abroad and never find their way back. Also in South Africa, young children and young people are kidnapped and kept in the country, but held captive and against their will. South Africa has very poor borders, so it’s really easy to get people out of the country without the proper documentation currently. Any border into Africa is relatively easy to access with the right amount of bribery taking place. So the issue of our poorest borders and large scale corruption make South Africa a target for human trafficking. And it’s one of the issues that the financial action task force have a serious problem with in South Africa. So we have tried to address it, but we have not yet successfully stopped it.
It may be interesting for you to contact Barrister Moham of the Good Law Projects in the UK who litigates against states corruption on many levels in the UK present. Thank you, I’ll absolutely do that. Thank you very much.
Q: How does the coalition of parties plan to increase the percentage of voters casting votes in the next election? Who are the potential leaders of the coalition?
A: Well, the leaders of the coalition currently are the leaders of the political parties that have joined. There’s deliberately not been a top dog, so no positions have been promised and no positions are off the table.
Q: How do we plan to increase the percentage of voters cost?
A: By offering a palatable alternative to the ANC. So each party on its own may not be a palatable alternative to the ANC for a section of the voting population. But together we believe that we do offer a palatable alternative to the ANC, an alternative that has been proven to work, an alternative that has shown that where we govern, we govern well. So a combination of the coalition partners I think presents a very palatable choice that voters haven’t had in the past. And we believe that that will significantly increase the percentage of voters. Currently South Africa has around 3 million voters who don’t vote at all, who aren’t registered to vote and never vote. Who whoever can activate those 3 million voters is going to have the majority of voters in this country. And we believe that we stand a very good chance of doing that.
Q: Is it true that the prime minister’s wealth is over twice the values when he started?
A: I’m quite sure it is. I don’t have exact figures. When he became the president, he put his assets into a blind trust. So, we don’t really know what’s going on, but he is an incredibly wealthy man and yeah, he spends a lot of money on cattle farming and spends a lot of money on cattle if that’s anything to go by. And then certainly his wealth knows no bounds. You’re interested to hear about some of the high profile cases that one reads about, but disappear within weeks. You are referring to the deputy president’s motorcade and the violence assault of innocent motorists. Yes, that matter certainly shocked South Africans. It’s not without consequences. The investigation is ongoing. The perpetrators have been arrested, they’re out on bail and they’ve all been suspended and the criminal trial is imminent. They will certainly be held to account. No question about it. The fact that it disappears is probably because our Criminal Justice System is so slow. So, you don’t look forward to that matter coming to court certainly this year. And so it gets reported on when they appear, but in between very little happens. So it’s probably difficult to follow. Public prosecutors lose files if they’re paid enough. Yes, she told me that 20 years ago I would’ve laughed at you, but unfortunately I can no longer laugh about it. It is true. Private enterprise is a way that electricity generation can be restored.
Yes, absolutely. We are in the Western Cape. We have entered into agreements with independent power producers, the rest of South Africa, not so keen to do it. City of Johannesburg is now looking at it, but in the Western Cape it’s working very well.
Q: As a former South African advocate, what I’m hearing you say can be summed up in one word, disaster. Do you believe there is any realistic hope, however remote that the current government will be replaced? Seems as short of that the collapse of the country is inevitable.
A: South Africa continues to produce miracles and continues to surprise, continues to buck the trend. And so I absolutely believe that the government will be replaced in 2024. I believe that the coalition arrangement provides a realistic alternative to the ANC that will attract a vast amount of voters who simply have given up on the ANC, have become completely disillusioned by the ANC and the inability of the ANC or the unwillingness of the ANC to look after ordinary citizens and only look after themselves. So I believe it will be replaced. And so I don’t see the collapse of the country as inevitable. I remain optimistic about the prospect.
I’d just like to echo that, Glen, you know what, just having left South Africa, I did not feel despondent. There were so many wonderful people. I went to the solidarity rally. There was so many African people, there were so many from the churches, bishops so many people came up to me and they just sought me out. And then I was with Taddy Blecher. I’m sure people must have heard Taddy Blecher and his amazing CIDA University with these 25,000 students, African students and people are optimistic. They get up there and vote. That is the message. And to all South Africans, get up there and vote and tell your families and tell your children and tell your children’s children and tell all your employees and make it a mission. Because we can make and will make a difference.
If every single South African who can vote does vote, whether it’s in South Africa or abroad, I can tell you right now that South Africa, after May next year will be a completely different country. The upward trajectory will kick in almost immediately. It may be a very, a small one in the beginning, but there’s no question that South Africa can be saved and that there are people in South Africa who possess the skills to govern differently to the ANC. We’ve proved it. Again, the Western Cape, the crime rate is coming down the rest of the country, it’s just goes up. Gender-based violence in the Western Cape is coming down in the rest of the country it goes up. The murder rate in the Western Cape’s coming down, the rest of the country it’s going up. There are proven policies that do work that can be implemented and there are people available to implement it. All we need is for South Africans from near and far to really make the effort please to go and vote.
[Wendy] Yeah.
I’ve read that a prominent Constitutional Court judge is tasked to oversee prisons. Comment on this. Yes, certainly. Edwin Cameron, justice Edwin Cameron is the inspecting judge of the Judicial Inspectorate. They have very few powers. What they do is they inspect prisons, they investigate unnatural deaths. Excuse me. They attend to complaints by inmates of prisons, but they have very few powers and with busy drafting legislation currently to increase and enhance their independence and give them their own budget so that they will be able to do a better job of what their job is. But they do with their limited powers and limited resources, they do an excellent job. Please update us in current position with process to impeaching judges and how you see this going forward. I mean impeaching judges is a terrible thing. One should hope that it would never happen. Currently we are busy with the impeachment of two judges. The one a justice of the High Court in Gauteng and one the judge president of the Western Cape High Court. Both have been found guilty of gross misconduct by the Judicial Conduct Committee of the Judicial Services Commission. And both of them are currently before parliament. The matter is before my committee, the Justice Portfolio Committee for both of them. Our discussions are about to take place in both these cases and then recommendations will be made to the National Assembly where it’ll be debated. I’ve got no doubt that both will be impeached, sadly. It’s certainly not something that you’d want to see every day, but there is a provision for it and the provision works. And so there is, there are consequences for anti-social behaviour even when you’re a judge.
Q: What evidence is there that most South Africans care about Israel showing the vast rural population have not expressed a view?
A: I don’t know that I agree with that. I certainly haven’t interacted with all the rural populations. Rural South Africans tend to be conservatively religious. Most of rural South Africans belong to the Zionist Christian Church, which is certainly a great supporter of Israel, collaborates with Israel and have a lot of connections with Israel. So I would certainly expect them to be supporters of Israel. Certainly the South Africans that I’ve interacted with in the last week since the the dreadful attack, both in the Western Cape and in Gauteng, have have been supportive of Israel. I think that the event in Gauteng was well attended. The event in the Western Cape is very well attended and the Anglican church aside, every other church has expressed solidarity with Israel and the Israel’s right to exist and to defend herself. So I’m confident that most South Africans don’t hold the view that Hamas represents all Palestinians and that they should be supported. I think most South Africans have had enough of terrorism.
Q: Is it likely that the EFF and the ANC would form a coalition?
A: It’s not impossible. It’s everybody’s nightmare. Of course it would be disastrous. I think it’s unlikely simply because the EFF remain a smallish party. They’re a 10% party. I don’t believe they’ll grow. They’ve shown no signs of growing in any by-elections. And in every election since their existence, they’ve managed no more than 10%. They’re also an offshoot of the ANC, so disgruntled ANC members in the EFF and I don’t think that there’s a lot of love lost between them. So if you’re in South Africa you’d understand that there’s the constitutionalist in the ANC, which is one grouping and then there’s the radical economic or transformational or the RET grouping, which is a little smaller. They might possibly fund a coalition with EFF palatable, but certainly for the majority of ANC members, no. We actually give up our South African citizenship, to take Canadian citizenship.
Q: Can we still register to vote as we were born in South Africa?
A: Yeah, South Africa takes a diminished view of dual citizenship, but they cannot take away your right to your South African citizenship. So in fact, you should be able to register to vote and you should be able to vote.
Right. I did that, I did that.
Yeah, no, you can do that. I know that South Africa doesn’t approve of dual citizenship, but they can’t, if you are born in a country, they can’t take away your right to be a citizen. So South African government display their impartiality with well-placed keffiyehs draped over their shoulders. Yes. Quite. You know the horror of seeing the ANC National Executive Committee all wearing Palestinian cannot be described. They don’t speak for me and they don’t speak for, I don’t believe the majority of South Africans. Their behaviour is both deeply distasteful and embarrassing. I have tried to register to vote from Sydney and never received the OPT number. Okay. Well please, when you get my email address, get in touch with me and we can try and help you sort that out. I think that’s all the questions.
That’s it. So Glynis, thank you very, very much for an informative and an excellent presentation. I do feel like we’re on a mission. I’m glad that you educate those who weren’t South Africans and for those who are South Africans, we’re already on a mission to encourage everybody to get out there and vote and what can I say? Onwards and upwards, please God.
Onwards and upwards. There’s no alternative. So thank you very much for the opportunity on the platform.
No, thank you. Thank you. We do not want a president standing with a keffiyeh around his neck. I mean, it was just really appalling. So, Glynis, thanks a million. Good luck.
[Glynis] Thank you very much.
And I look forward to seeing you and chatting to you soon. And we will, if you’ll just send us the details that you’d like us to send out, we’ll do that to all our-
I’ll send them to Karina. It’s fine.
Okay. Thank you Hannah. Thank you everybody. Thanks for joining us. Goodbye, goodnight. And enjoy the rest.
[Glynis] Bye-bye.
Thanks. Bye-Bye.