Trudy Gold
The Case of Nicholas Winton: A Hero and Rescuer
Trudy Gold and Lady Milena Grenfell-Baines - The Case of Nicholas Winton: A Hero and Rescuer
- And welcome back. Lockdown is a very strained organisation. Because a couple of weeks ago, I received an email to Lockdown from Lady Milena Grenfell-Bains. And what she, she was giving me a suggestion for a very good lecturer. And then I thought I recognised her name, so I actually Googled it. And then I realised of course, that she was one of the children rescued by Nicholas Winton. And happenstance, I decided that as a preyonce, we ought to do something uplifting. So I was going to actually give the case of Nicholas Winton, a hero and a rescuer. Because not only was he British and a fascinating man, I had the pleasure of knowing him. And also a very close friend of mine, Vera Gissing, who unfortunately is no longer with us. And another close friend, Muriel Emanuel, had written a book. And not only that. After he had been discovered. Again, inverted commas, by Esther Ranson and Lady Milena is going talk about that. We put together a study guide because a man called Tom Schreker, who was also one of the children, came to the centre and said, I want you to, to tell the story of Nicholas in every school. So that’s why we decided to do it. And he, and before we get onto the nitty gritty, what I want to say was Nicholas Winton, who lived a wonderful long life. He was born in 1909, and he died in 2015. I think what was so extraordinary about him is that he really seemed be amused by all the fuss that everyone was making about him. And he was just such a modest, lovely man who didn’t really understand all the eulogies. So I’m going to begin by giving a short biography of him up until Prague. And then I’m going to hand over to Lady Milena because she will then tell his story right up until post his death, in fact, to the film that’s being made at the moment. So can we see the first slide please, if you don’t mind, Corina.
There you see a lovely picture of Lady Milena with Nicholas, isn’t that a lovely warm picture? And I can see you smiling, that’s a very special picture. But let’s start at the beginning please. With the first picture. Now, that’s Nicholas Winton with one of the children, as a young man. And now let’s look at his background. Now, he was born, he was the son of German Jewish parents. He was born in Hampstead in 1909. The family name was actually Wertheim, but it was changed, it was Anglicised to Winton. He had an interesting career, he went into banking and then stockbroking, he was on the London Stock Exchange. We know that he was very left wing, he was a- He believed passionately in social justice. He was a socialist, and he was also very much against the anti-appeasement of the 30s. Can we see the next slide, please? We also know that he was an excellent fencer. In fact, he’d been selected for the British team, isn’t that a wonderful photograph? He was selected for the British team in 1938. And he’d hoped to compete in the Olympics, but of course, the war stopped those Olympics happening. And to go on with his story, he was about to go on holiday in Switzerland for his winter holiday in 1938 when he had a call from another extraordinary woman, because I want these people’s names to be remembered. Her name was, can we see the next slide, please?
The next slide, Corina. That’s Marie Schmolka. She was working with another woman called Doreen Warriner. Now, Marie was a Czech Jewish national. She was a social worker. And she- You’ve got to remember, after Chamberlain and this piece in our time. The Hitler broke the agreement of march into Czechoslovakia in March, 1938. She was an activist. She set up in march- She actually set up as Czech refugee committee. She had been the Czech representative at Evian. Back in July, 1938, the countries of the free world met together to discuss the plight of German Jewry. And what was so heartbreaking, there were 32 countries represented and very few of them showed any pity. And Golda Mayer, who was there as a representative for the Yeshu, but had no say, she actually said, and she was there with Abba Iban. She said, the day will come when the world will not pity the Jews. And so she was very influential, this woman, Marie. She was at the Evian conference and of course, could do nothing. Now, just to give you a notion of what was going on at the time, Adam Wikeman, who was the bureaucrat in charge of Jewish affairs, to use the Nazi euphemism. Their dream was to solve the Jewish problem by immigration. They, at that stage when- It’s another long, detailed discussion. But when was the final solution embarked on? It’s not actually until the invasion of Russia, right up until the invasion of Russia. And even beyond that, it was possible for Jews to get out if they had somewhere to go. And in 1939, she was actually sent by Eichman to a joint. The joint, of course, the American- The wonderful American joint, had a conference trying to negotiate the Jewish immigration from central Europe.
One of the problems was of course, that after the Wall Street crash, the horror of the thirties, there was a terror of too many refugees coming in, flooding the country. You all know the story. Anyway, she was finally relocated to London. And of course the invasion of Czechoslovakia. She actually died of a heart attack in 1940. Those of you who live in London, she’s buried at Hoop Lane. There was a funeral in Golders Green, and it was attended by Jan Masarick, who of course was the head of the Czech government in exile in London. And also the wife of Benish came. And as did Rebecca Sith, who was a very important Zionist and a leader of Viso. Just to give you a notion how well this woman was regarded. She died of a heart attack or did she die of a broken heart? And she was one of the people who contacted Nicholas Winton. Because of course, Nicholas Winton was known as an anti-appeaser and an activist. Now, the other person- Can we see the next slide please? The other person who contacted Winton with her was Doreen Warriner, another incredible woman. She also came from a really humanitarian background. She wasn’t Jewish. Her grandfather was a clergyman. He actually had a parish for the really poor in the black country, and they’d left Ireland. Very clever woman, one of the first- She was one of the first women really to get a first at Oxford in PPE. She got a doctorate at Oxford. She was a staunch feminist. She was an internationalist.
She was interested in socialism, in communism. She was actually later on investigated by MI five for her links with the left. And you’ve got to remember, by late 1938, there were 200,000 Jewish refugees in Prague, in Czech. Why? Because some had fled from Germany, from the Sudetenland. So there’s a huge number of them. So these are the people who are contacting Nicholas Winton. So, and he actually arrives. She came- comes to Prague with a certain amount of money to assist refugees. She made contact with the Quakers, Society of Friends. And there were quite a few humanitarian organisations. You can imagine the horror. The not, the Germans are here. They want the Jews out. They are mistreating. It is appalling. Who can help. And she realised, the most important, they were there for two reasons. They were trying to give relief to the people already there and also to help to get people out. And these, she needs to get the most vulnerable out. And at that stage, the most vulnerable were actually men who had a political record that was dangerous for the Nazis. So together with a Welsh politician, let’s have a look at the people who helped. Can we see the next slide, please?
David Grenfell. He was a labour MP, and he was a churchman. He was a very righteous man and he put pressure on. And also a leader from a German Jewish politician from the Sudetenland. Can we see him? Siegfried Taub. He was, he’d been deputy speaker of the Czech Parliament. He was a social democrat and had represented, he had represented Czechoslovakia with the labour and socialist international. He actually survived. He made it to Sweden and then to America and what had happened. So Doreen made a list of them, 250 most vulnerable people, all men. And Greenfeld returns to the UK to get permission. She managed to get 15,000 out before she was forced to flee back to London. And it’s at this stage that Nicholas Winton is brought into the picture. He’s come to Prague, he was going on holiday. Now he’s a humanitarian. He comes to Prague to help. And he spent one month in Prague and he left- and he’d left six weeks before the German occupation. And his story is that he eventually saved 669 children, including the Lady Milena. So may I now, with great honour, hand over to you. And thank you so much for sharing your story.
Lady Milena, we’ll have to have you on mute.
Hello?
How’s that? Can you hear me now?
Yes, we can hear you now. Thank you.
Well, we’re going to go to a most unusual first slide. Please. Like another first slide. Thank you. This is my family, and I’m talking about year 1938. My own mother had died and my father had remarried a Latvian doctor. And in this picture, the old lady sitting in front is my Latvian grandmother. My Latvian stepmother is standing immediately behind her and behind her is my father. Next to her, the boy was my cousin Boris. I’m sitting next to my grandmother. And on the knee of my grandfather is my sister Eva, who was at that time, two and a half, the man on the right with the glasses, my uncle Frank and his wife holding the baby. Our cousin Helen. He was a very strong communist. My father was a social democrat. The parents of the boy are standing behind, and then there is another uncle and an aunt. And what is amazing that in August 1938, just before the Sudetenland was occupied, and let me tell you, that we as children knew nothing about the circumstances that were going on. We actually came on the train to Dagafils to spend the summer with this family and returned back to Prague. How my father and my uncle must have been feeling, I have no idea. Because we then later discovered that my cousin Boris and his parents finished up in a Russian concentration camp where they were killed. My grandfather and one of the daughters ended up in Moscow. And our grandmother, she had died, I believe soon after this picture was taken of illness. And that only way is that where the story begins, because I’m then going to leap almost 50 years forward for the next slide. And this is a video, if you’ll bear with me, if you can get that video moving.
We have one more story for you. Milena Fleischman, she had to escape when she was nine with her little sister because her father had helped the author, Thomas Mann to escape. So he was on the Nazis wanted list. She told us.
If it was Nicholas Winton who helped me to escape my sister and my cousin with me, then I would be honoured to meet him, to thank him. If it were not for him, I would’ve gone the same way as my cousins who both ended up in concentration camps.
Once again, Milena is on Nicholas’s list. You see her there, but she is now Lady Milena Grenfell-Baines. and there she is. Milena, I believe you still have the name tag you wore around your neck when you arrived as a little girl at Liverpool Street.
I wore this around my neck. And this is the actual pass that we were given to come to England. And I’m another of the children that you saved. May I say that my mother is watching this this evening. Yeah, she’s 84 and she too was rescued and is in England and watching this programme this evening.
There you are, Mr. Winton. Well, a lot of memories brought back. I hope you now realise how grateful people are to you for what you’ve done. I know you don’t want thanks, but I think you are certainly going to get them. Thank you so much for joining us. We asked as many as possible of these grown up children to get in touch with us so they have the chance to thank Mr. Winton personally.
[Milena] Go to the next slide. Next slide, Corine. Well, 50 years had passed before that original, that original video you saw because it had been a total mystery to me and to all those children that Nicholas had saved us, how we had come to England. And to go back to your talk, Trudy, the reason that the rescue of the more vulnerable, dangerous grownups had to be made. My father was one of them. My uncle Frank was one of them, who was a very strong communist. And the day before the Germans invaded Prague, my father had got a message that he was to leave the Czech Republic because he had been responsible back in 1936 for organising a passport for Thomas Mann. Thomas Mann, who was living in Switzerland, was made stateless, couldn’t travel. And my father had been a great admirer of his writing. And he suggested to the village where we lived that they made him an honorary citizen. And the president sent my father to Switzerland to offer Thomas Mann and his family Czech passports. And with those he- Which he accepted, and with those, he travelled to America. So my father was on the list, and he was told on the 13th of March, 1939, that the following day when the Germans were arriving in Prague, he was to be arrested by the Gestapo and he was to leave. So he promptly left that night.
And Uncle Frank, who had been an out communist and had already been imprisoned in Germany before the war in the 17- in the 19- That he was a communist, was also told to leave. And he too escaped to England and joined the Czech Air Force, my father carried on to Berlin. This is a story that needs to be told because in the train, he met a total stranger, a lady, telling her, you know, what was going to happen to him. He didn’t know what he was going to do in Berlin. He was just told to go there and hide. And she said, don’t worry, you can stay with me and my son will help you to get away the following day. And indeed the following day, a German officer turned up, my father thought he was being arrested, and this was her son who also was a great admirer of Thomas Mann. He travelled with my father as far as Frankfurt, told the guard to look after him till he got to Brussels. My father in Brussels tried very hard to buy a ticket to fly to England. His money wasn’t accepted. A total stranger was standing behind him in the queue, said, what’s your problem? And when my father explained, he said, well, my son was born today, here is some money, fly to England. So two complete strangers helped my father to get away. And he found these people after the war. But that’s another story. So that in back in the Czech Republic, in May, my mother, somehow, and this has always been a mystery, gets a message that we are to go to England. And on the second of, on the second, 31st of July, she takes us to the railway station and with my grandfather puts us on a train to England where we are collected by a family, an English family, called the Radcliffes.
And there you see the English family that took care for us after, for this, for 12 months, daddy Radcliffe, mummy Radcliffe. And they had a daughter, Mary. And you can see I’m standing there with my little sister who’s looking perfectly happy at the time. And because they lived in a terrace house in those days, you know, two up, two down bath in the kitchen and the lavatory in the yard. So they wouldn’t separate us. They sent Mary to live with a grandmother so they could have room for us. And once, a year later, when miraculously our mother arrived, and we were one of the few that had our parents, but we of course stayed friends with the Radcliffes for the rest of our lives. Could we have the next slide? The night I was leaving, my grandfather gave me an autograph book. And I will tell there, it says, remember to be a faithful daughter of the country. You are leaving and your parents and your grandfather who loves you very much. Prague, the 31st of July, 1939, nine o'clock in the evening, he had the foresight to ask my aunts and uncles to also send me a message. And it was the last time I ever saw my grandfather and my grand- and my relations because in 1942 when everybody was being arrested and sent to concentrate camps, they were sent too. First of all, to Terezin and then to an extermination camp in Maritroskinets where no one lasted more than a month. And I never saw them nor my cousins again. Could I have the next slide? That is the visa. Well, it says no visa. That’s a document that my sister had. You can see she was, she was two and a half years old at the time. And she travelled on the train with me. I barely really remember travelling, you know, this is nearly 90 years ago. But what I do know that she was completely quiet.
She never spoke. And many, many years later when we talked about this, she must have been totally traumatised. And she said she was just so angry with her mother, with our mother for sending her away. She thinks that’s what made her the way she was. And we were the two travelling together and I was looking after her. Could we have the next slide, please? Well, again, we are going to leap forward because 70 years later, a man in the Czech Republic for a good deed that had happened to him, decided he would like to do a good deeded to the rest of the refugees and organised a train. And I had a message in England, would I like to replicate the journey that we travelled from Prague to England. This time, not in a third class compartment, but in a very comfortable train being looked after. And 30 other people agreed that they would travel with me. And they came from all over. They came from Israel, from America, from Canada, from Australia. And on the picture, which I took actually that photograph. There we are sitting in the Czech Embassy in London, and there’s Nicholas sitting in the centre. My sister just on the front in the blue dress with glasses. Berigesing is on the picture, Trudy. And other friends, but sadly many of them not with us anymore because this is in 2009, which was 70 years after we had come on the first train. Nicholas met us at Liverpool Street Station at the time. I’ve got lots of photographs from there. And he had a great sense of humour.
And in the microphone, he said, well, I hope it won’t be another 70 years when we meet again. And there he was meeting up with the people that he had rescued all those years ago who had come to see him. Could we have the next slide? And that is again, in the embassy, but this is on his hundred and second birthday. You can see the birthday cake. And behind him is Uta and my sister. Vera would’ve been in the room. And this is the Czech ambassador, Mr. Jankowski, who has just recently written a book, this memoir mentioning this. And the lady leaning forward is, was the cousin of Mar- of the Czech minister in America that died. She was the foreign minister, she was her direct cousin. Gosh, my, the name slipped my mind. Dasha, Dasha Shilva. And she travelled in the same compartment as we had and we re-met again at school together with she and Dasha. So that was Nikki’s hundred and second birthday that we were celebrating in the Czech Embassy. And the next slide. Well, I’m sure many of you will recognise that face. Theresa May, who was at one of Nikki’s birthday parties, he was a very, very sociable person and he loved parties. And we used to meet at his house, and Theresa was actually his MP at that time. And she would, she would visit him. And so I managed to snap her on the day. I think at that point, Nico must have been about 103. He was getting on, but it was birthday party and she was one of the guests. And the next slide. And this is Vera and I in Nikki’s kitchen. Now going back to Vera, Vera and I went to school together. And she had been searching, wondering who had rescued her for many, many years when she grew up.
And of course she wrote the famous book, which you, I think read. Called The Post of Childhood in which she describes the book. And as I say, we were at school, and this is many years later, we stayed friends all our lives as I did with many of the people whose name I had in my autograph book. And it was Vera who, when Esther Ransom found her at the show, discovered that she’d only been living 20 minutes away from him, searching all this time, you know, who’s the person that rescued me. And as soon as they got to know each other, she sort of became a kind of sec- almost a secretary to him, because from the day Esther Ranson made that programme, and the following week when she invited all the other people to come and meet him, she bec- she used to answer the letters that he would get. From that day he had visitors that came every day. He was invited to America. And of course he became a very, very famous person in the Czech Republic. And we used to travel there with him. And Vera looked after him for many, many, many years.
May I interrupt you Lady Milena? Could you explain, could you please explain why, how it was that he was rediscovered?
Right. Well, he, one day, way back, again, this is fifth- this, it would happen in 1988. Actually. His wife was in the attic clearing out some, some boxes and came across a scrapbook and sort of said, you know, what is this? And he explained, oh, he says, that’s something I did before the war, helping some children to escape. And I’m not quite sure what we should do with it. And he did try to see whether anybody would be interested. And his wife said, we can’t lose this. We’ve got to do something guided. And finally got into the, into the hands of Esther Ranson, through the wife of, remind me that the the newspaper man. Elizabeth’s-
Oh, Max, Elizabeth Maxwell, yes.
Elizabeth Maxwell, Elizabeth Maxwell. Elizabeth Maxwell, who herself was a survivor, married to Maxwell, was organising a conference. And she got hold of this book and she herself wrote to all the addresses that were in that book and got an answer from about 200 children. The book, the book was then passed on to Esther, who decided to invite Nicholas to the studio to talk about it. But in between, unknown to him, she phoned a few of us. I was in the kitchen, you know, my usual place answering and the phone rang and this woman says, this is Esther Ransom. Well, you know, you don’t get Esther Ransom phoning you. And I jokingly said, yeah, yeah, I’m the queen of England, thinking it was some friend phoning. She said, no, no, I am Esther Ransom and asked me a few questions. She said, I’ve got your name from a list. We are inviting a few people to London to meet Nicholas Winton, but we’re going to surprise him. Can you come? And I was so taken back, I mean, I live in north of England. I said, well, I’ve got five other friends in London that you know, you could ask. She said, well, we’ve just picked a few names up. So I went to London and when we got to the studio, she said, you are not to tell him who you are, to sit there until we invite him. And from the previous little video you saw, this is what happened. He came in, sat down, sort of, he did have a friend that came in with him, hoping he might sit together, but Esther Ransom said no. And that’s how the programme started. And Nicholas and Mr. Winter, you are sitting next to Vera Gissing, and you are sitting next to Milena Flashman. And after 50 years of not knowing who saved us, we met the man who saved our lives. So that is very briefly the story of Nikki because of course after that we all became great friends. And can we have the next slide, please?
Well, the next slide is rather a sad one. Many, many years afterwards, Nikki was now a 105. And a friend of his, one of us, I should say, called Hugo Maron, was visiting him from Israel. And Hugo said, you know, Nikki, you are famous. We are famous. But the people, the heroes of our story are the parents. The parents who sent us away. And we really need to put up a memorial for them. And Nick’s answer was, and not before time. But Hugo lived in Tel Aviv. There were very few of us left. I was living in London and another friend, this was Anna Merishova, was living in Prague. And Hugo prompt to send me an email, do something. Well, how does one do a memorial? First of all, it was suggested, we formed a little committee in Prague. And it was suggested that we had a competition because the money that we gathered, that I wrote for, and Susanna wrote for, we had to give other firms a chance to bid to make this memorial. And the ambassador, the British- The Slovak ambassador in London told me that he knew a man in the Slovak Republic who could copy trains. And we discovered this man and he copied a door, an actual door of one of the carriages that might have, that we may have travelled in back in 1939. But then we had to find someone who would make the window. And so many firms competed for the prize. Whereas this one who actually got the job were so desperate to do it, that they did it for very little money. And there you see the window of the hands, the hands, the little hands are my great-granddaughter and the great-grandson of Susanna and our own hands representing the parents who were saying goodbye to us at the railway station.
And that memorial stands on the main station in Prague. And again, when we wondered where this could be put, and I suggested the railway station, I was suggesting it to the people in Prague, I was thought, oh, they’ll never allow it. Of course not, you know, don’t even think about it. And I thought, well, why shouldn’t they allow it? And I did a Nicholas Winton thing. Nicholas Winton always said, if it’s not impossible, it might be done. And I wrote a letter to the manager of the railway station saying to him, we know we are asking something difficult. But Nicholas went and said, if it’s not impossible, it might be done. And by return, I got a letter back from the manager. No, it’s not impossible, it will be done. And the memorial is standing on Prague railway station. You can see some flowers at the foot of it. And I have gone back from time to time to watch people pass it by. It’s on the main concourse. So usually most of them are in a rush. But every so often you will get someone coming up, reading the plaque, which explains how it was there. You will see flowers being laid there.
Very sadly, within a year it was put there, it was badly damaged. Some, someone scraped right across the glass. But believe it or not, the station had it immediately repaired. And now they have a camera and it is well looked after. But it is quite amazing how many people know of Nicholas Winton in the Czech Republic. You can stop anyone in the street, which I had proved when I had a BBC correspondent with me one day who didn’t believe me. And we, I just stopped total strangers that I said, excuse me, have you ever heard of Nicholas Winton? And the answer was, of course we have. We know exactly who he is. He saved so many children. And when I’m in Prague and I happen to mention that I am one of the Winton children, people say, oh, you know, we- it’s wonderful to meet you. We know about the man. And there are so few of us now left who can tell the story. And to say yes, you know, we were there. And there is our memorial for the parents who were the brave people to send us away. And of course, most of the children never saw the parents again. And I think this could be the next slide. Yes, just wait to see.
[Producer] 30 seconds to on air.
Okay and you are just here.
[Narrator] Now, an extraordinary story about a young man who many years ago visited Prague. What he found there with thousands of refugees at the mercy of Hitler’s imminent invasion.
Do you ever think about the children and what happened to them?
I bet you got some stories.
That’s really not about me.
[Speaker 1] We are working to evacuate these children by train to safety in Britain.
Why are you doing this, Mr. Winton?
Because I may be able to do something about it. I must.
Go, now.
Nikki, you must know we cannot save them all. You have to forgive yourself that.
We started now, I have to finish it.
[Young Nikki] We cannot let these people down.
It is incredible what you achieved. We’re doing as much as we can.
You have a lot of faith in ordinary people.
Because I’m an ordinary person.
[Nikki] Save one life, save the world,
Forgive me, but how many children are we speaking about? Can I ask, is there anyone in the audience tonight who owes their life to Nicholas Winton?
Well, here you are looking at a little piece of the film that is just being released. With the unbelievable Anthony Hopkins, playing Nicholas Winton. It’s taken from the book that had been written by his daughter, Barbara Winton, called “If It’s Not Impossible”. And it is really the story about the evening when we were invited to Esther Ranson’s programme where Nikki is introduced and we meet him. This film is about to be seen in London for the first time, on the 12th of October. It has already been seen in Toronto. We are looking forward to seeing it in Prague. I’ve already been asked, I’ve just returned from Prague actually. And there I was asked because they are showing the trailer. When are we going to see it? So we are waiting for that important date. And looking at Anthony Hopkins, it’s almost like looking at Nicholas Winton. It’s an incredible portrayal of the man. And he was very interested in seeing our original documents during the filming. And I had the great pleasure of meeting him, showing him my own label, which you saw very early on and my autograph book. And I’m going to be delighted to know that my own children will be coming to London with me to see the film. Luckily my son and my daughter were able to meet Nikki when he was alive. And because I used to go and meet him, see him regularly. He lived in Maidenhead. And I would catch a train and when I got to Houston, I’d go to Marks and Spencer’s and buy his favourite lunch, which was the cauliflower cheese and rice pudding. And we would have that together. And now have a, another story about him. You know, he was in the Air Force when the war began. He was an instructor in the Air Force. And when he was 104 years old, friends of mine sent him a message to say that they were flying to England to an earth show.
And they were coming in a four seater Cessna. Now that’s like an aeroplane with four chairs in it. And would he like a little flight? And he said, yes he would. And so I drove, I went down to Maidenhead and we drove him to the little airport. And there was this plane in Barbara, his daughter looked at it and said, I’m not getting in that. Anyway, I climbed in and we set off. Now every plane has dual controls. And as we were once in the air, the pilot pointed to the controls that were in front of Nikki, He took hold of them. And for the next half an hour, I was being piloted by 104 year old pilot. So the real pilot landed the plane. And when we got out, Nikki said, well, it’s just like riding a bicycle you’ll never forget. And I think that’s my last very, very happy memory. And also he got caught for speeding when he was a hundred, in the car. And he was then stopped from driving. And he was a very good card player. He loved the opera opera. He did Petit Point. I’ve got a picture. He embroidered. I just have great happy memories of him. And I did visit him when he was, when he was very ill and when we lost him. But he was a very great sociable man. He loved parties. We attended many of his birthday parties. A school in the Czech Republic has been named after him. And I go regularly to many, many schools telling the story of how I was rescued and who the man was who rescued me. And that was Nicholas Winton.
May I ask you a question, please? Before then we turn it over to the audience. When I knew him, he was quite modest, wasn’t he? He was quite a modest man. I always got the impression he didn’t really understand what the fuss was about.
He never liked talking about the past. It’s absolutely true. He did have this sad story where he said that, I said I was on the last train, but the last train, which was standing in the station on the 1st of September, full of children never left because we broke out. And we, as far as we knew, four of those children survived because 15,000 children died. Czech and Slovak children died in concentration camps. And that was his, as he always said, that was his very sad memory. But he liked looking forward. He always said, you never learn anything from history.
Do you know what gave him? ‘Cause one of the things that interests, I think all of us, is what makes a man like that. And some of the other people we talked about. What makes them rescuers? Have you thought about that? What makes them in a-
We always have-
In a very good way in a-
You’ve shown photographs as a young man and now have other photographs having a wonderful time skating. At that point, he knew what was happening. He’d worked in Germany. He’d worked in France. He was warning people about what Hitler was about and what- But the, it was Nicholas Blake, it was a great friend of his in Prague who was there with Doreen Warriner. And the other people, it was Nicholas Blake who wrote to him, look, forget about going on a skiing holiday with me. I’m in Prague. Come to Prague, come and help. And when he got there, even then, at the first he saw were the people who had escaped from the Sudetenland area who were living in dreadful circumstances, after Prague. And then he realised that although they were rescuing or trying to get permits for the adults, it’s the children who needed help. And it’s the parents who were desperate to get the children out. And there he was for a two weeks holiday and he then decided he must do something. And so he opened this office in a hotel called Shrobank in Metteson Square. And within two days he had this queue of, the word got round, there’s man there trying to help the children, 2000, queue of 2000 people waiting, begging him to put the name of their children on his list. And that’s how the lists began. Well, the only thing he could do, and he did ask his employer could he have another week’s holiday. And then the man actually wrote back, why are you bothering, you know, what’s it to you? Why do we bother about this little country?
Come back and make some money on the stock exchange. But he didn’t. He returned after three weeks and promptly got his mother to help him. And because he worked on the stock exchange, he was home by, he said, by three o'clock. And then he started working. And the only way he could find families. He was told by the foreign office, by the way, sorry, we’ve already allowed 10,000 Austrian and German children to England. That was the original kinder transport. No more children, unless you find me families, each family will promise to pay 50 pounds for the repatriation of these children. That way you can have the children. And I happen to have a copy of a picture post page on which there are many, many letters that he was advertising of different families saying, yes, we will adopt children. And this way he found 669 families, including we presume the Radcliffes, who also never told us, you know, we never asked in those days. And then it was too late to find out how did they find us? Why did they choose us. A lot, some of this will remain a mystery forever. All we know is that my father’s business card is in Nicholas’s Winton’s scrapbook. And we could only guess, my sister and I have talked about this, that my father, who was already in England when Nicholas was ready to do this, must have heard about this, got in touch with him and asked him to put our name on the list because this will always remain a mystery. But a mystery, which, you know, if it’s never solved, it’ll be a very good mystery.
And I think it’s also, as we, it’s tomorrow, I think it’s good to think about a man like that. Would you take some questions, please? I can see from the chat. Do you mind taking questions?
Well, if I’m able to answer them, I’ll be very happy.
Q&A and Comments:
Thank you very much. I’m going to open the chat box, Peter Vogel and Elena is sending you best regards.
Thank you, Peter. I know who you are, yes.
Anita Eckhouse just says she’d just seen the premier.
It’s a distant relation.
And it was outstanding. I must see, she’s telling us to go and see.
Yes.
And I’m just going through the pictures now. Lots of people is saying Happy New Year. Oh yes. This is from Joan Les saying- Hello Joan Happy New Year. At one point, Mr. Winton was interviewed by an Israeli journalist who was ill prepared. He asked the question why Mr. Winton cared about these Jewish children. Winton answered, maybe because I’m Jewish.
Well, yes, but he would also tell you, it wasn’t just Jewish children that came. He just said any children. And they were a mixture. They were Jewish, they were Catholic, they were Protestant. But yes, he was Jewish, but he only, it was his grandparents. He was actually baptised Methodist. But he was, he had no religion. He was just a very good man, yes.
Yeah. And this is from Betty Lowenstein who’s telling us there’s a wonderful documentary on Nicholas Winton from years ago. It was so touching the end of the film. And they’re talking about- They’re talking about the documentary you showed.
Yes.
This is from Nicola Gissing with whom I’m in touch. This is from Stephanie, was very moved by the latest film. My mother Vera has also been very active. And of course, Vera, who was a very close friend of yours and of mine, she wrote, she of course wrote with Mural Emanuel this book, the Rescue Generation. So this is from Helen, good evening from Prague. My father was a Winton child. I was honoured to be invited to take part in the planting a hundred trees in an avenue in a village outside Prague last October with Nick Winton, Alfred Dubs, Ginny Kafka, and yourself, the Lady Milena. And nearly 400 others, mostly Czech. Thank you both so much for this. They’re saying, thank you, basically. And the film has been in the Czech Press this week.
Yes. We planted nearly a hundred trees in an alley just below the famous Mountain Reap. And it was all sponsored by, oh gosh. It was a sponsored event. And we were there with, as I say, Alf Dubs, who was one of the Winton children. There are not many of us left, yes.
Q - Mildred is saying that she wants more explanation. What were the actions? How did Mr. Winton save the children?
A - Well, the only way he did it, he always said he was never in any danger. He was in England, but he was the- he was finding the families and he met every train that came into London.
He got the money, he got the- I think let’s make it clear, he got the families. And the money.
He had to find the funding. And 50 pounds in those days. My goodness. It must be thousands today. Yes.
And and also the labour, the labour MP, David Grenfell, I think he helped a lot. So there were lots of good people helping. Oh, this is from Andrew Winton. Nikki left Prague on January 21st. Mention must be made of Trevor Chadwick, who ran the Prague end of the operation until war broke out.
Right. Yes.
Q - Is that, is he a relative of Nicholas, Andrew.
A - No. Trevor Chadwick was a teacher down in the south, whose mother was about to adopt two children. And he went to Prague to get the two children to bring them back. In spite of the chaos that was going on. And stayed there and returned back to Prague and decided to help. And he was responsible for putting the children on the train. Each time Nicholas found a child, he sent a message to Trevor, put so and so on the train. So it was either 10 children or 50 children, or in our case eight children. And he stayed there until it got too dangerous for him to stay and came back to England. And there is a memorial to Trevor Chadwick in Harridge. I went there not long ago because, you know, there are other people who had forgotten because Nikki outlived them all.
Yeah.
Who also deserve their thanks.
That’s the point. We must always remember these people.
[Milena] Yes.
Because they-
And Nikki always said he was not alone. He made that very clear from the start.
I think he, as I said, he was an exceptional human being.
Yes.
This is my, I don’t know the name. My father and sister were saved by Nicholas Winton and were present at the BBC with Esther Ranson. And his, my aunt travelled from Prague for this. Mrs. Marlene Goldberg. My great aunt Irene had a sister who was a kinder from Prague. She lived in London and became a lawyer. I don’t know her name. How did Nicholas manage to save the children he did? I think you’ve answered that really, haven’t you? Which station did they arrive at, asked Michael Block.
Well, some of us arrived at Harridge or we came to Liverpool Street.
Yeah.
Liverpool Street Station. There is a lovely statue.
[Trudy] There’s a memorial there.
That’s right. That’s where we all came to when we were met. Now, some of the children were not met. They didn’t know what was going to happen to them. And they were sent to a hostel. And I think the hostel was in Harridge. I don’t know many of the details of that, but eventually they were found families. Because during the war I was at a Czechoslovak boarding school, which my father sent me to, which may sound very grand, but it wasn’t at all. It was a very, it was a very poor place, but he didn’t want me to forget my own language. And so for three years I was taught entirely in Czech by Czech teachers who’d come over with the Czech army. 2000 soldiers and airmen had come to England and they were all based in a place called Chumley Park. And within that army were teachers who were eventually sent to teach us at the school. And some of the people on the photograph I travelled with, but there were many that I didn’t know. But I must tell you one, one story about- The story when we came back nine, 70 years later, there were two ladies in the train sitting next to each other. And one said, I was six when my mother put me on a lady’s knee and asked her to sing me my favourite song. And the other lady said I was nine. And a lady put a child on my knee and asked me to sing her a favourite song. One of these had come from Israel and the other one had come from America. And they met on the train with this amazing story.
Oh, it’s so extraordinary. And you are getting a lot of people saying thank you. How much, and this is best regards from Sheldon Levitt, one of the principals in Toronto who had the honour of having dinner with you. And lots of people are thanking you. And they want to know when the movie is opening in America.
Yes, yes. Well, everybody’s waiting very keenly. I’m so pleased because I just wish I knew if there was anyone else on that train. You know, I’ve lost most of my school friends and it’s wonderful if anybody out there is watching and was there. Oh, hello. Yeah, it was great.
And this, everyone’s saying how wonderful you are. So, and this is from Eva Pad, your little sister watching from Cambridge MA. Well done, Milena. Looking forward to being at the UK Premier.
Yes, she’s coming to join me in London. She’s coming to join me in London, my little sister.
Oh, that’s fantastic.
Who herself could tell you lots of stories. Yes, she’s a retired headmistress or principal.
Oh, wonderful.
[Milena] Yes.
And this is from Cory. A few years ago I saw a documentary on Nikki’s children attended by Joe Schlesinger, one of the children he rescued.
Yes, another boy I went to- Joe was a wonderful journalist, again, a school friend of mine. That we kept meeting after the war. And everyone in Canada will tell you now that they know the name of Joe Schlesinger. He had a regular broadcast and he was in Berlin when the war came down. He, yeah, sadly again, we’ve lost Joe. My goodness. He was a great guy.
And this is from Susan Soyinka, a friend of mine. Hello, Happy New Year. In the late 1950s. I had a French teacher called Ms. Prager. It was many years later that I learned she was one of the children rescued by Nicholas Winton when I saw her on the programme. By then, Mrs. Eve Ledbinton participated in the reconstruction train journey and was interviewed. I learned that her older brother was meant to catch the last train, but didn’t make it. I was finally able to meet her again. And thank you. And thanks you very much, Milena.
It’s been a pleasure. Thank you.
Q - And was Nicholas Blake ever meant, recognised and what happened?
A - Say that again. Who?
Q - Was Nicholas Blake ever recognised and what happened to him?
A - Blake. Martin Blake, you mean?
Q - No, she says Nicolas. Nick- It’s Martin Blake, not Nicholas’s Blake, Nicholas’s Blake was a spy, wasn’t he?
A - Yes, but no, I don’t know what happened to Martin Blake. It’s not really mentioned, actually. There is another book, the Rescue of the Five Refugees in which all the team that worked on that is mentioned. And that, I have to admit, I don’t know what happened to Martin Blake.
Arnold wants to know how many non-Jewish children were recognised by Nikki.
No, he never- Never made any differences because he himself had baptised and he said, religion had nothing to do with it. He said you had to compromise and you had to, you know, understand their person’s view. Let’s put it.
And Andrew Winton’s come back again. I am Nikki’s nephew. My father Bobby was Nikki’s brother. He’s on the right of the photo you show with Nico. Oh, that’s wonderful. And their sister Lottie. And I’m called to be proud of. And this is, again, they’re thanking you so much for this Milena. Thank you.
I wish there’d been time because I do have a lot of photographs of him and of the, you know, of the parties that we had and when we met and of my friends at school. But I know sadly not this time. There was no time to show.
Well, Lady Milena, may I invite you back? You know, it’s as simple as that.
Oh yes, yes.
[Trudy] So let’s say anyway-
And we’re going to talk about Jewish cooking, aren’t we?
Oh yes, of course we are. Which is very important because that, because you’ve had quite a life. And can I just say something else? Not only to thank you so much for being part of this at such short notice because I believe in Basher, it was so peculiar because that’s why you got in touch with me. You had a brilliant idea.
It’s all happened in the last two weeks, hasn’t it?
It has been absolutely mad. But I’d love you to come back and the tributes to you. And also, may I say, I think these, the kinder the and the children who were rescued, they’d given so much to Britain or to Israel or to where, you know, these people, they are, so many of them have become absolutely inspirational. And it’s a message about humanity, isn’t it?
Well, you know, Hugo Maron, who again sadly died, was a pilot in the first. He was one of the founders of the Israeli Pilots. And so was another young man, called Jose Blaczek, known in Israel as Joe Alon. And I believe this- And Joe Alon and I were at school together as well. And they were out there with the finding the first Israeli Air Force. So many of them have done so much good. Yes.
I know. It’s- And Nicholas Winton made it happen. And it’s all, so again, thank you so, so very much and let’s wish all the Lockdown people whether they Jew or Christian or Gentile or whatever you are. Let’s wish everybody a Happy New Year.
Yes, yes.
Thank you so much. This has been very special for me.
Thank you for asking me. Thanks, bye bye.