Trudy Gold
The Simon Wiesenthal Story

Trudy Gold - The Simon Wiesenthal Story

- Good evening, everyone. And today, I’m looking at the extraordinary life and times of Simon Wiesenthal. Such a legend. And just to talk about the future, as you know, we have a soft launch of the website, I hope next week, and then, we will be looking with, having spent, hopefully, the past month looking at all sorts of different characters to really give you a potpourri where then next week we’re turning back to England and then South, and then we are going to look at South Africa, and then a couple of weeks on Switzerland, so that should take us really up to the end of November. And I also thought it would be important to talk about Simon Wiesenthal, particularly, at a time when we begin to prepare for Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, because of course, the whole issue is, how on earth does one deal with the greatest crime in history? One of the greatest crimes in history against the Jewish people. And how on earth did one deal with all those terrible dilemmas? Can there ever be forgiveness? Can there be forgiveness of the perpetrators? Can there be forgiveness of their heirs, et cetera, et cetera? A lot of my friends and acquaintances who are survivors have often been approached by the children of perpetrators wanting their forgiveness. And the answer to that is there’s not, from them, I’m only repeating, “I have nothing to forgive you for because you didn’t do it.” I think in Judaism, it’s about responsibility. If I hurt you, I have to apologise to you. If you’re not there to be apologised to, there can be no forgiveness.

Now, one of the accusations, one often hears against the people of the book, the New Testament is, the Old and the New Testament, as they call it, and of course, the Old Testament is the Hebrew Bible, an accusation, it’s all about vengeance. Whereas the New Testament is all about love. And I think that in itself is a kind of antisemitism because when you’re dealing with the greatest, greatest catastrophe that the Jews have ever faced, and let’s be honest, we faced an awful lot of them. Although it has to be said, the ultra-Orthodox mourn their loss when? They don’t mourn their loss on Holocaust Memorial Day, they mourn it on Tisha B'Av, when they look at all the catastrophes and they see the Shoah as just one in a long line. However, the majority take it as something that is almost unique. I’m saying almost unique in Jewish history because there’s still controversy. But my question is, at the end of the war when the final toll was released, when the films came out in the cinemas, even though, as you all know, there is evidence coming through from Operation Barbarossa run from really the late summer of 1941, culminating on December the 17th, 1942, when the nine governments in exile in London, of course, with America and Russia, they actually issued the allied declaration on what was going on in Nazi Germany. So let’s be careful about this. We knew what was going on, but there’s a huge difference between knowledge and taking it in. And it’s the liberation of camps, the films, and then, the fact that the American soldiers, the British soldiers, the Russian soldiers, the liberators themselves, how could they deal with the ultimate horror? And back in the war, a decision was made to bring perpetrators to justice.

Can we see the first slide, please? The four victorious powers, the Russians, the Americans, the British and the French, staged the Nuremberg war crimes trials. The aim was to bring the major perpetrators to justice. There were four categories developed for this, conspiracy to wage war, crimes against peace, war crimes, and crimes against humanity. As far as the so-called euphemistic final solution was concerned, Hitler had committed suicide, Himmler had taken cyanide when captured, Heydrich had been assassinated by some Czech partisans, and the next one in line, I’ll come onto later, Eichmann. Those top Nazis that they could get their hands on were trialled. And of course, after the war crimes trials, there were also lots of separate trials, there were trials in the Soviet Union, there were trials in Poland, et cetera, et cetera. However, the appetite for the trials began to wane. And this is very, very complex. And I think for many people who survived the war, and for many people who believed that justice wasn’t done, we have to go into the world of real politic and you have to make up your own minds about it. There was a peace deal between Russia and America in the war. Don’t forget, in the summer of 1941, the Nazis invaded Russia. In December ‘41, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour, and five days later the Germans declared war on America. So the Russians and the Americans were together with the British and consequently were allies. But once the war is over, what is going to happen in the New World Order? And it was obvious even before the end of the war that the real tussle for world domination was between America and Russia. It took the Brits a long time to realise the empire was over. In fact, I suppose the last flickering into the lion was in Suez in 1956. But the main point I’m making is Russia emerges as the problem for the West and think how Germany was divided and Austria, divided up into the four zones. The allies needed West Germany as a buffer against communism. Think how Stalin had swept in.

Look, if you think of the Polish uprising, he didn’t send anyone to help the Poles. On the contrary, he wanted the Germans and the Poles to fight it out because his dream was to take the whole of Eastern Europe, if you like to conquer the old Czarist empire, and you could put a big question mark on what Putin’s aims are, look at the maps and look at history, it’s fascinating. But the point I’m making is the allies pragmatically needed low level Nazis to bolster up Germany. And you do not push people’s faces into the mud if you need them as allies. So gradually, the war crimes trials abated. And not only that, those who have, of course, the major perpetrators were executed. And here you see, Goring, but they were executed, but then a lot of the lesser ones, they get very short sentences. And in fact, Wiesenthal and others estimated that probably 10% of those guilty of crimes against humanity were brought to justice. And that is a terrible, terrible indictment. So if you’re looking for legal justice, I think we can say that it never was satisfactory. I’m not talking about vengeance here, I’m talking about justice. If you had lost the whole of your family, what would you have wanted? Would you have wanted people to be called to account? And in a way, those numbers are almost beyond imagination, which made it even more difficult. So what I’m suggesting, there were war crimes trials, there was another response. Can we go on to the next slide, please? Here you see Abba Kovner. Abba Kovner was an extraordinary individual. He actually was a poet, a writer, and he led the resistance in the Vilna Ghetto. He survived the Vilna Ghetto.

He was actually the man who coined the phrase, “We will never again go like sheep to the slaughter,” which I completely argue against, they didn’t. This is not the time to discuss that, but I think every historian would take that point. They didn’t, but he was making a point. He managed, he survived the ghetto. He became a partisan. At the end of the war, he teamed up with other partisans, survivors of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, some Jews who had fought for the allies under their own insignia, the Jewish Brigade. They’d been fighting mainly in Italy and Holocaust survivors. They came together and they decided they wanted din, justice. and they were responsible for executing, finding, and executing many SS officers. There are now books written about it. There was also even a plan to destroy the- to actually destroy a whole barrack of SS officers, plus another plan to poison the water of five German cities, which never happened. When Israel was declared, Kovner went back to Israel, of course, became a member of the ghetto survivors, Kibbutz, fought in the War of Independence and became Israel’s national poet, and later gave evidence at the war crimes trials. But there’s absolutely no doubt that some of the avengers, Nakam, stayed behind in Europe. And also, if you look at the characters who sat round the table at Wannsee, at the Wannsee Conference, when about, when 16 people sat around the table under the orders of Heydrich to discuss the euphemistic Final Solution, the majority were lawyers with PhDs from top German universities.

Well, what happens to them? About a third of them died in the war. About another third had accidents or committed suicide between '45 and '41. And certainly, many historians believe that is the work of din. And also the other third by way, died in their beds on SS pensions. So that was another response, but there is another response too. And that’s the survivors themselves. Can we see the next slide, please? Yes. As you all know, between '45 and '48, the main aim of the Jews in Palestine, be Ben-Gurion and the Haganah begging and the Irgun or Shamir and the Lehi, all with their diverse aims, it was nevertheless, the main aim was to create a Jewish state. Almost a million Holocaust survivors finished up in Israel. We needed to build up a new state, we needed to create a state and much of the energy went into that. There are some survivors who believe that the Israelis were not zealous enough, but I’m now presenting, I’m not giving any, I’m not giving my opinions, I’m just trying to present various cases. And then there was something else as well, the survivors themselves. Did they speak? Didn’t they speak? I’ve spent an awful lot of time in my very strange career with survivors because many of them in later life wanted to go into schools to tell their stories. And some of them would tell me, and many of them, of course, have written their memoirs now, that people didn’t want to listen. Some of them were so traumatised, they didn’t want to tell. Quite often, they told too much or they told nothing. It’s fascinating talking to the children of survivors and I, but to me, I think the biggest thing is that people didn’t really want to listen.

There were some memoirs written in Yiddish, but it’s not really until after the Eichmann trial that the dam bursts, but there was one other response and can we come onto the next slide, please? And that is the work of Simon Wiesenthal. Simon Wiesenthal is absolutely legendary. To some, he is the greatest hero that ever walked in the world. To others, he is a fantasist and very problematic, but I’m going to read a statement about Wiesenthal from one of his critics, a man called Eli Rosenbaum, who was the American Nazi hunter a couple of years ago, and you’ll be able to get this now that we have got Lockdown. He gave it, the website. He actually gave a lecture on Lockdown. He’s a fantastic man, but even in a book that was critical, this is what he said about Wiesenthal, “He started the battle, a day after the Second World War. He paved the way,” and that’s the point about Wiesenthal. It’s because of him that really, the issue of Nazi war criminals was, did not go away. And I think that’s absolutely extraordinary. So I’m going to begin by talking a little about this phenomenal man. He was born in Buchach in Galicia, which was then part of the Habsburg Empire near Ukraine. I don’t know how many of you have travelled in Galicia or even in these areas. I have. And I find it almost impossible to believe that, you know, that town was, that small town towns 50% Jewish before the war. It’s full of ghosts. All these places are full of ghosts, these pretty towns that go back so far with their large Jewish populations. My friend, Felix Schaaf, though, he always said, “The further east you went, we walked the same earth, we looked at the same sky. How much did our world coincide?”

His father, Asher, was a merchant. He’d fled the Russian Empire in 1905. Those of you who know your history will know that that was the year of the 1905 Revolution. And it was peppered with so many pogroms because the Czars, particularly the last of the Czars, Nicholas II, they really did use the Jews to ward off revolution. And in World War I, his father, Asher, actually died fighting for the Austrians. That is a very strange war. You have to think about the First World War. It was really the main war where Jews fought as citizens or subjects of the countries in which they live, Jews in England, Jews in America, Jews in France, Jews in the Habsburg Empire, which means Austria, Prague, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, they fought for the countries in which they lived. Very strange when you think what’s going to happen in the Second World War and how many of those Jews were awarded the highest honours possible. But anyway, the father dies, so the mother decides to flee to Vienna. So she has two sons now. So can we see the next slide, please? There you see Vienna around 1910. And that, of course, is the wonderful opera house. Extraordinary, beautiful Vienna. The boys attended a German language school. One of the gifts of Simon Wiesenthal is he had many, many languages. Now, they returned to Buchach after the war, after the Russian retreat and Buchach changed hands several times. I’ll never forget Hugo Gryn saying that he lived, he’d lived in five different countries. What actually had happened is he hadn’t moved from his little town, but it changed hands five times. So he’s back in Buchach. He goes to high school at the gymnasium.

By this time, the Habsburg Empire has been dismembered and he’s living in Poland. So of course, having been tutored in German, he’s now tutored in Polish. He actually met his future wife, Cyla, there, and later on he’s going to marry her in 1936, tragically, his brother had an accident and broke his back and died a year later. In 1926, his mother remarried and he moved. Can we see the next slide, please? There you see Dolyna, another very pretty little town. She has married Isack Halperin, who’s a wealthy man with a tile factory and Simon stays behind though to graduate. He decides he wants to study architecture, but there was a very strict quota in the Lvov Polytechnic. So he went to the technical university in Prague. Can we see the next slide? Later on, this is going to be so useful to him because, of course, he’s going to have a lot of languages. And he’s in Prague between 1928 and 1932. He’s apprenticed as a building engineer, mostly in Odessa. He returns to Galicia in 1936, he marries. There are contradictory reports about what he did next because one of the problems with Wiesenthal, and in a way I think he tells lots of different stories about different periods of his life, which is a problem for biographers. So I’m going to gloss over that. I’m only telling you what we know to be fact. And then, of course, all hell broke loose. Can we see the next slide? The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Now, Nazism and Communism were totally ideologically opposed one to another. This absolute, this is August 1939.

The world is traumatised when Hitler, there you see Ribbentrop and Molotov along with Stalin, they signed the pact. And that means for the next couple of years, Stalin and Hitler are allies. Now, World War, but during, when World War II breaks out, Lvov, where he now is, is annexed by the Soviets, Can we go, what is absolutely fascinating, his stepfather, the Halperin who is still in Dolyna, is arrested as a capitalist. Ironically, when the Soviets took control of many of these areas with large numbers of Jews, they arrested Jewish capitalists. And that meant many of them survived the war. His father wasn’t lucky, his father, his stepfather wasn’t lucky enough, he actually died in a Soviet prison. So his mother, Rosa, she’s lost her other son remember, she moves to Lvov to live with him and his wife. And evidently, Wiesenthal managed to bribe a Soviet official to prevent his own deportation because under the Soviet rule, professionals and intellectuals weren’t to live within a hundred kilometres of the city. And then the next hell, can we see the next slide, please? Yeah, Operation Barbarossa. When the Germans broke the pact and they invade on a huge line into Russia, it’s a shame that Hitler had never learned the lessons of history. Russia has never been successfully invaded from the West, or maybe it’s a great blessing. However, from the Jewish point of view, Operation Barbarossa marks a stage, a new stage in the history of the Jewish people. Up until '41, Jews were, if you think about the Jews of Germany, of then of Austria and Prague, and then of course, of occupied Poland, they were, beginning in '33 in Germany, they were socially, legally, economically excluded, they were terrorised, but the whole ethos was to get them out, rob them blind, and get them out. And now we come to a very, very critical issue that I’m sure many of us have pondered on.

If the world had opened its doors to Jewish refugees, I think what we can say, all historians will say Austrian and German Jewry could have been saved in its entirety once Poland, though, I don’t know. But the point is, the final, Hitler was actually allowing Jews out of concentration camps if they could get out, but once Operation Barbarossa following the Germans into battle, went the Einsatzgruppen, those four companies each made up of 750 men, mainly with incredible educational qualifications, in fact, one of the leaders was a pastor. It’s a fascination which will always grab my soul because I used to believe that education could action, I was brought up as a creature of the enlightenment and I really did believe that education could educate you out of being so monstrous, but boy, are we misinformed. It’s got nothing to do with a good academic education. It’s got something to do with empathy, a love of humanity, and seeing your victims as human beings because this is when the killing fields begin. And can we go onto the next slide, please? This is the Lvov Ghetto. The first issue was either to, the killing fields, the shootings, and then the ghettoization, the terrorizations, and beginning in 1942, the establishment of, gradual establishment of the death camps. Why did they establish the death camps? Because the shootings were not satisfactory enough. Now this is where you have to go into a nightmare world. Some of those wonderful SS officers were drinking too much, they wearing mad.

And we also know, by the way, just how many other people were involved in the Final Solution, Ukrainians, Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians, the German Army, police, it is, particularly, after the Russian archives opened up, you really get a better picture. But the Lvov Ghetto was established several thousands, shocked by the Einsatzgruppen and the Ukrainian collaborators. In late 1941, Simon and his wife were transferred. Can we see where they were transferred to? One of the things about Simon Wiesenthal, he had the most amazing memory. He goes to Janowska concentration camp. He worked on the Eastern railways repair works. Remember, he is an engineer. Evidently, he managed to extract his wife from the camp by giving information to the Polish underground about the railways. She was given false identity papers and travelled to Warsaw. Her health was completely broken, but she did survive the war. And after the war, the couple were reunited. And their daughter, Paulinka, was born. In the ghetto of Lvov, his mother and other elderly Jewish women, can we see the next slide, please? The end of the world. I’ve travelled there, it’s the most, it really is the end of the world. When I first went under communism, there was just a tiny little memorial in a car park, Belzec. That particular group of elderly women were murdered in August 1942. Evidently, a Ukrainian woman had murdered his wife, Ukrainian policeman, I beg your pardon, had murdered his wife’s mother in Buchach as she was being evicted from her home.

So all these facts are later going to be collated by Simon Wiesenthal. The Wiesenthals lost 89 members of their own families. According to the Simon Wiesenthal’s account of his liberation, he was very, very ill. And he was finally liberated from Mauthausen Can we see the next slide? That’s Mauthausen in Austria, it’s not far from Linz. You know, it’s so, the juxtaposition of evil and beauty is something that fascinates me because that surrounding area is an extraordinarily beautiful place. And I suppose speaking personally, one of the most important things I think I’ve ever done in my career was to give lecture on antisemitism in Linz, which meant an awful lot to me, actually. But nevertheless, the beauty of, our hosts, I was with Anita Lasker-Wallfisch. She was being honoured at the University of Innsbruck. Our hosts wanted to show us the beautiful mountains. And it was very, very odd and very, very bizarre. But going back to the story, when he was liberated finally by the Americans, he weighed only 90 pounds. He was skin and bones, but he had survived. Now, remember, he had a prodigious memory. Can we go on to the next slide, please? Linz, beautiful city. It was Hitler’s favourite city, by the way. He hated Vienna and he actually went to church in Linz, although he was completely anti-Christian later on, but it’s such a pretty sleepy little town. It’s really bizarre, I think that’s all I can say about it. But remember, he has languages, he’s got a prodigious memory. And even though he’s ill, he’s emaciated, he had already prepared a list of a hundred names of suspected war criminals, guards, commandants, Gestapo.

And he presents it to the American Counterintelligence Corps at Mauthausen. Because of course, in all the camps, depending on who the liberation did, they were setting up agencies. Imagine what the world was like in 1945. It wasn’t just surviving, Jewish survivors. There were about 10 million people on the move, the Red Cross, all sorts of relief agencies, the soldiers, there were some tragedies because some of the liberating soldiers tried to help and they gave chocolate, there were lots of deaths after the liberation, but the chaos. And, but because he’s got languages, including English, he begins to work as an interpreter for the Americans. He accompanies officers who are carrying out arrests, even though he’s very frail, because of course, a lot of Nazis turn them. They dressed up in ordinary German uniform and they tried to pass themselves off of German soldiers. Then Austria partitioned in 1945 in July, and Mauthausen is in the Soviet German zone. So consequently, the American War Crimes Tribunal moves to Linz and he went with them. He’s housed in a DP camp and he becomes, he’s always been a great organiser. And he, remember, he’s got a scientific brain, and a prodigious memory. And he becomes vice president of the area Central Jewish Committee, which was trying to arrange basic care for survivors. And also the number one question, has anyone in my family survived? Can you just imagine?

And you know, ironically, there were families still being reunited up until about 20 years ago. I want to tell you a story of hope because this is so bleak. When we were in Poland at the huge cemetery, there’s a huge cemetery in Warsaw, which was not destroyed. And we were talking to, we were talking to the guard at the gate, but he came to visit the grave and it was in a very remote part. And the only thing his mother had from her father was his yarmulke, this kippah. And it blew off. So he said to the gatekeeper, “You’ve got to find it, please if you find it…” And he left him some money, so the man remembered. A few months later, another middle-aged man came from America to visit the same grave. And because of the kippah, he realised, and they were brothers. And what had happened to them was the mother believed, the children had been split. They had to hide, so the mother took one son, the father another, and at the end of the war, there was no record. They hung around in Europe, but then believed the other side had died. And these two boys were finally reunited, 30 odd years after the war. So there are extraordinary stories, but I want you just imagine what really was going on, the horror of it and also, Nazis escaping the war crimes trials, yes. But as I’ve already said, there wasn’t really a concerted effort. And as when we’ve looked at scientists, you will know that the Russians, the Americans, and the Brits, they all wanted to get the top German scientists. And of course, Wernher von Braun, the man behind the V-2 rockets, he finished up where? He finished up in America, heading up the, heading up, really, the rocket campaign. So what can we say about morality and statecraft? It’s a huge question.

Do we expect a far higher standard of morality from the individual than we do from the state? Anyway, he is now, so he’s already, he’s got a very strong, he’s got a very strong will, he’s got a very good mind, he is determined to seek justice, not just for his own family, but for the Jewish people. And meanwhile, he’s trying to organise relief and there’s all sorts of relief, and not only that, Bricha, an organisation of partisans and Haganah and Irgun, what are they trying to do? They’re trying to run the refugees to Palestine between '45 and '48 against the British blockade to create the states. So it was a period of total chaos. And the other thing of course, that was happening was some survivors were going home and they were meeting with the most huge hostility from ordinary folk who had taken over their homes. You know, I never forget, Hugo Gryn said, to understand what the Nazis did in a war is to try and take on the overturning of the Ten Commandments. Just think about it, but you could steal, you could covet, you could dishonour. And they took away because remember, one of Hitler’s most extraordinary statements, “I can never forgive the Jews for inventing moral conscience.” So the world is upside down, but he is determined that he’s going to seek justice. And so can we see the next slide, please? He went to work for the Office of Strategic Services and for a whole year, he’s working for them, collecting information. He also works with Bricha. He worked on creating forged papers, transport, et cetera. He’s a brilliant organiser. And in February 1947, the Americans are not so interested anymore. He goes to Linz, goes back to Linz, and there he forms the Jewish Documentation Centre to gather information for future war crimes trials.

There were 30 other people with him. He collected over three and a half thousand depositions from concentration camp survivors, but gradually, the appetite was waning. And already in Vienna, there was another group headed by Tuviah Friedman. Can we have a look at him? Tuviah Friedman. Tuviah Friedman, another Nazi hunter who later went to Israel. He, of course set up, he set up a group in Vienna. Now, Wiesenthal’s office is going to close in 1954, almost all the documents are transferred to what Yad Vashem. He continued his work with refugees, but he still wanted to hold the Nazis to account. This is what he said. “When the Germans first came to my city in Galicia, half the population was Jewish.” Remember I showed you that lovely little city, “150,000 Jews, when the Germans were gone, 500 were left alive. Many times I was thinking that everything in life has a price. So to stay alive must also have been a price.” You see, I think, and I’ve discussed this with survivors, only when they bring it up. Many survivors, you know, they feel guilty for living. Isn’t it fascinating how the innocent blame themselves? And this is what he said, this is Wiesenthal, “And my price, I must be the deputy for many people who are not alive. It is my duty to speak to them.”

And he said, “I will continue till the day I die.” Now, what of course he does is he builds, on donations, he sets up his own centre, and his aim is of course, to bring war criminals to justice. Now, according to him, he brought over a thousand to justice, others disputed, but that’s not the point. The point is he becomes the symbol. Can we see the first slide, please? Adolf Eichmann. Now, I’m sure you all know about the arrest and trial of Adolf Eichmann. Adolf Eichmann, like many of the Nazis had escaped to South America with papers supplied through the Red Cross and the Vatican. There was a particularly sinister priest called Alois Hudal. He was an Austrian bishop and a Nazi, and he got so many of these appalling characters out. Now late, one of the reasons Wiesenthal stayed in Linz for a while is he wanted to keep an eye on Eichmann’s family because he knew that Eichmann, remember if you think of the group who were responsible for the Final Solution, Hitler, Himmler, and Heydrich are dead, Eichmann has disappeared. Where was Eichmann? Now, he certainly monitored the family in Linz, but the people, according to Isser Harel, who was the head of Mossad, the people who were really, although he did give information and help, Wiesenthal did help prepare in the trial. The real, the real evidence for Eichmann was actually from Fritz Bauer, who Phil Rubenstein’s already lectured on, plus, of course, it was a very strange story.

In Argentina, in Buenos Aires, Eichmann had, he had four children and his youngest son was born in Buenos Aires and his son was dating a half Jewish girl. And her blind father- the name, there was some recognition and Mossad was informed through Bauer. And the Israelis, of course, went in, but the Israelis wanted Wiesenthal to take the credit and he did. And one of the- and that led to his centre getting a lot more money, which enabled him to go after other war criminals. And who were some of the others that he went after? Obviously, I’m only going to highlight a few of them. Can we see the next one, please? He ruled the Vilna Ghetto until July, 1943. Look at that face. He was born in Austria. I’m going to give you the background because Wendy and I have often discussed this. The psychology of the perpetrator is terribly important, the dehumanisation factor. He was born in Austria, he joined the Nazi party after the Anschluss, he trained with the Hitler Youth and he transferred to Vilnius. He was in charge of Jewish affairs. He was a terrible sadist. After the war, he moved back to Austria, and in '47 he was recognised by a displaced person. He was arrested by the British and he was deported to the Soviets because it was in Vilnius, of course is now under the Soviet sphere. He was sentenced to 25 years hard labour. As part of the Austrian State Treaty of 1955, he was released back to Austria, real politic. The Austrian Ministry of Justice ruled that his case was closed because he’d been trialled into the Soviet Union. He was rearrested and trialled in Graz. This is very much the emphasis of Simon Wiesenthal. Remember, he’s collecting testimony, his satire. And I should mention that when he transfers his headquarters to Vienna, there were many attempts. There were many bombs sent. Austria never really came to terms with its record and the world didn’t want it to because they needed the Austrians to boost up the world against communism. And it’s only really the past 10 years the Austrians didn’t pay reparations.

And it’s only the last 10 years that anything has been happening, but that’s another story. And he is, mainly through the initiative of Wiesenthal, he’s arrested and he’s charged with a murder of 17 people. Survivors testified. The prosecution told the jury, we quote, “We have to prove that the past is past in Austria and that anyone who kills regardless of the race of the victim will be punished.” But the jury acquitted him and he died in Graz. It’s the work of Simon Wiesenthal, but it also gives you a notion of what was happening at the time. However, two of his subordinates at the initiative of Wiesenthal were convicted of war crimes in West Germany. It was much easier to do it in West Germany and they were sentenced to life imprisonment. Can we come on to the next slide, please? Now, this is Karl Silberbauer. Now, this is rather a strange case. Karl Silberbauer was the police officer who actually arrested Ann Frank. Simon Wiesenthal was challenged by Revisionists, Holocaust deniers, who said that the Anne Frank diary is a complete fabrication. So he managed to find Karl Silberbauer, the man who was arrested, who actually arrested Anne Frank. Now, what happened though is that Silberbauer was acquitted because he actually hadn’t done anything contrary to the law of the time. So you can’t, you see the nightmare that we’re in here, but the point is, there’s a lot of press over this and at least the admission that the Anne Frank diary was genuine. Now, he’s getting more, he was quite a fractious personality with Simon Wiesenthal and his centre was taken over by the local community group and he opens a new centre with donations and a stipend from the Mossad. And he lobbied, one of his main aims, he had a file, files and files and files and one of his main issues, there was a statute of limitations.

Anyone found guilty of war crimes, it would stop in 1965. He managed to get it through the German Parliament to have it deferred for five years. Another one of his importance in- one of the ghastly character he bought for justice was Franz Stangl. Let’s have a look at that monster, Franz Stangl. He was the man in charge. He worked, first of all, he was an Austrian. He worked first on the euthanasia programme that is the murder of the mentally and physically impaired Germans. He then transfers, he was actually the commandant at both Sobibor and Treblinka. And he is actually guilty of overseeing the death of 1 million people. He and what had happened to him, he had escaped through Alois Hudal, he had made it to Brazil. He was finally, Wiesenthal was finally given his place of where he worked, because you’ve got to remember there’s a whole circle of ex-Nazis in South America. One of the reasons so many of them went there was the Peron regime was very, very, they were very useful to Peron, a lot of the ex-Nazi soldiers, SS trained Peron’s troops, just as so many of them went to the Arab world under NASA and under, particularly, in the days of the United Arab Republic. So Stangl, but it’s actually his son-in-law who tells Wiesenthal where he is. And he is actually extradited to West Germany. And he is sentenced. He dies in 1971, but that in jail, but that is Stangl. Another strange case is the case of Hermine Braunsteiner, can we see her? A woman, 1919 to 1999, she was born into a strictly Catholic family in Vienna, working class family.

She worked as a maid in England, by the way, in 1937, '38, she became, she then went, in '38 she went to Germany. She became a German citizen, she worked in a factory. And to obtain more money, her landlord suggested she moved to Ravensbruck, where she worked under one of the worst sadist of all, a woman called Maria Mandel. And then she had a quarrel with Mandel and she was sent, she worked in Auschwitz and she was, what happened to Mandel, by the way, she was executed for war crimes. She was particularly, both of them were particularly sadistic. Anyway, what happened to Hermine, she was trialled in 1949, the Austrian People’s Court in Graz. She was convicted of non-fatal abuse in Ravensbruck, but acquitted. She was in Majdanek, she’s acquitted for that. And she spent three years in prison. Her property was confiscated. She had, she got time off for good behaviour. She’s released in 1950. This woman who was so sadistically cruel, I’m not going to go into half what she did, but these are the kind of testimonies that Wiesenthal collected. In 1950, she met an American who was on vacation in Austria. They fell in love, they moved to Canada and then America in 1959, and she becomes an American citizen. In the old days when you went to America, on the visa, have you ever been a member of the Communist Party? It was only, and it had a lot to do with Wiesenthal’s work and also, Eli Rosenbaum and the American War Crimes Commission, it now says, were you ever a member of the Nazi Party? So it is fascinating, but at that stage, the enemy was the Communist. And those of you who are in the States, in New York, she lived in Queens, which of course is a very, very Jewish area. And she had, she was evidently very friendly. Her husband was a construction worker. And she is discovered by Wiesenthal.

And evidently, he tells the New York Times, he does it that way. And in 1964, the New York Times were alerted. And when they come to the house, she says, “My God, I knew this would happened.” Now, there was a real problem. The Germans requested her extradition, but there was a problem with the Americans because the crimes were committed in another country and there was a huge fuss. Wiesenthal got an incredible amount of publicity. And finally, she is extradited, she’s sentenced to life imprisonment in West Germany, but she is released in 1996 for ill health, and it’s really because of all of this publicity that the Americans established the Office of Special Investigations to seek out war criminals. So can we go on, please? Now, this is the one that got away. He was also very high on Wiesenthal’s want list. And he, this is the sadistic doctor of Auschwitz. We know that he escaped to South America, and now we know that through, we know that he drowned and he officially, he died. He had a heart attack and drowned, but he lived a life, he lived a whole life and continued his medical practise in South America. So I’ve just given you, as a figure, I’ve given you a sort of a slight indication of the kind of breadth of Wiesenthal’s work. He was an incredibly controversial figure. Now, I don’t want to, there are two things that I want to discuss with you, the Waldheim controversy and Bruno Kreisky, but four minutes is not enough time to do so. So what I’m going to do is to come back on our slot of timing when we can continue that in depth, because I really feel it deserves a lot more conversation than for me to rush three to four minutes. So what I’m saying to you, Wiesenthal as I said, he was a controversial figure.

He wrote quite a few books. Some of his books are absolutely extraordinary. Can we just go back to the Simon Wiesenthal picture and one of the most extraordinary books he writes is “Max and Helen.” It’s about a case where he decided not to prosecute. It’s a good book, it’s 1982. It was also made into a film. He is looking for this evil Nazi commandant who is responsible for murders and mayhem. And he finds a woman who was in the camp and the door is opened by a young boy, a young man who is the absolute spit of the commandant that he is looking for. And he realises this woman was actually raped by the commandant, but who has no knowledge. This boy though is a wonderful young man and he has no knowledge of his past. His mother tells him that in fact, his father was in the partisans. And it’s a very lovely story of atonement because in the end, the man she really loved finds her. He also at the beginning, cannot take the fact that her son looks so similar to the oppressor, but in the end they are reunited. And the boy goes on to have an incredible career. He also wrote a wonderful book called “Sunflower: On the Possibilities and Limits of Forgiveness.” He wrote “A Chronicle of the Jewish Martyrs”. He also wrote, there are still “Murderers Among Us”, a large, a very large article on Nazi criminals in the Arab states. Plus another article I really advise you to read, it’s called “Justice: Why I Hunt Nazis.” So we will come back to that. Why is he so controversial? Because he was dogged, because he exonerated Kurt Waldheim when most people thought he shouldn’t be exonerated. He had a constant battle with Bruno Kreisky, the Jewish president of Austria, who denied his Jewishness. So, but that, as I said, will need a lot more time. So let’s have a look at the questions, see what we’ve got.

Q&A and Comments:

I think if you forgive history, you’ll end up rivet it.

“Two additions of the Sunflower deal with Wiesenthal’s story during the Shoah about being asked forgiveness by a dying Nazi, what various people, Jew and non-Jew thought about,” it’s fascinating. And this is really the time of year to think about it, isn’t it, Shelly? What does forgiveness mean? And it’s been explained to me by many rabbis that if I commit a crime, I can be forgiven by the person I’ve committed the crime against, but if they’re dead, there can be no forgiveness. It’s interesting, it’s all about personal responsibility.

This is James Wagman. Oh my goodness, “My father was in Mauthausen. Simon Wiesenthal, he testified in one of the trials of the camp offices after the war, and Wiesenthal gave him a copy of the graphic book describing the atrocities of the camps, including depictions of the baby-faced camp commandant and the guards who tossed Jewish prisoners off the cliff, taunting them as they were parachutes is, without parachutes.” James, oh, you know, this is Lockdown, isn’t it? The stories we have. I think, Rick Bloomstein made a fascinating film about Mauthausen called “Kz,” if you can get it. And he interviewed three elderly women who married their SS sweethearts in the chapel in Mauthausen. And it’s, did these people, did these people completely lose their humanity? It wasn’t the Jews who lost their humanity. I believe it was the perpetrators. How can you- how can you actually deal with this kind of thing? I think I have huge admiration for Wiesenthal because he was facing it day after day after day. Not only did he see it up close, but he had to face it, through meeting these individuals, through gathering testimonies, he collected, he collected, he collected.

This is Arlene, “I have a lot of difficulty about the concept of forgiveness. If I’ve been victimised, if the Jews have been soft, and why should I forgive those who hurt us?” Arlene, the point is, I think what Judaism believes is you can be, you can forgive and be forgiven, but the dead can never forgive. We cannot forgive for those who were murdered because they’re murdered, that’s what I think it means.

Carol, “Here in Israel, not all survivors are treated with honorary respect. It’s a very sad and cynical that once a year, there’s a day of remembrance by the government. Most volunteers take responsibility for the Holocaust survivors.” Carol, it’s such a deep and dark issue, isn’t it? In a way, it’s Abba Kovner.

“We shall never go again like sheep to the slaughter.” I personally, personally believe that it’s so deep in the Jewish psyche. Look, Yehuda Bauer, there’s been more, there were more acts of resistance, physical, spiritual. Think about the Warsaw ghetto, but when did they resist? They resisted when they knew they were going to die. Think about our family units as the weak elements. You’re going to behave yourself, aren’t you? And I think this touched Israel. I’ve said this to you before, it’s bar Kokhba and ben Zakkai. What is the secret of the Jewish people? Bar Kokhba who had himself smuggled out of Jerusalem in a coffin and who begged to be allowed to set up a study centre or Bar Kokhba. Don’t forget that the oath of allegiance of the powers, used to be taken at Masada, I don’t know if it still is. We are again the people of the sword. Now, I think that is that there was this horrific belief that many survivors, why didn’t they fight back? Well, that’s a crazy, crazy question. You should read Bauer on it, I think he’s splendid.

This is from Robert Silver. “John Galtier was a 19-year-old medic and who was an American non-Jewish liberator who became a victim. I was grateful and humble to have known him.” That sounds like an extraordinary story.

Amanda, “My paternal grandfather came from his barge near Tarnopol, right?” Been to Tarnopol, there’s hardly anything left. I think the synagogue was destroyed, but this is sort of, there’s still the bimah. And whilst that we were there, we met a couple of French Jews and they had managed to survive because their parents, I think one was eight and one was five, and their parents said, “Run.” And somehow those two boys survived.

This is from Elaine. “Let us acknowledge the many acts of resistance and heroism by individuals who gave a piece of bread to a fellow in a concentration camp, who supported a fellow who didn’t have the strength to walk alone, who lived a life of morality and decency in the worst of times. So many acts went unnoticed, unrecognised.” Elaine, I totally agree with you. We need to study the rescuers. We need to study. You see, that’s the problem. We haven’t yet, it’s, we’ve gone beyond history. When we deal with these kind of things, we go beyond history. This is about psychology. What makes certain people good and decent? And there is no common denominator on this, it would seem. Some of them had, some of the rescuers were just decent. It’s got nothing to do whether they were religious or men or women that socioeconomic, there’s nothing, but they is the people we have to glory in. And that’s our hope for the future. The problem with the decent is they tend, they tend not to want power, that’s an issue.

Oh, this is from Rita, “My beloved late parents, Holocaust survivors resistance fighters were part of a group which hosted an event in honour of Mr. Wiesenthal.” Do you know, we are so lucky with Lockdown. I’ve said this to you many times because we all, you know, there are so many stories that come from all over the world, the commonality. It’s such a privilege for me to share my information with you and I learn from you.

Oh, this is Tanya, “Beautifully and appropriately described by Viktor Frankl in his book, 'Man’s Search for Meaning’ when he describes his life in concentration camps and analyses it as a psychiatrist.”

Jacqueline, “There’s a remarkable book called ‘Savage Continent’ by Keith Lowe about Europe in 1946.” Thank you, I hope you’re taking all this down. “My paternal grandfather and my aunt, my father’s only sisters were killed in Voivodeship. My grandfather lived in the Lvov.” Yeah. You know, I have a short film of Lvov taken in 1939. It’s in Yiddish, I think. I must think of a way of being able to show it to you.

This is from Monty, “I promised to tell the truth, the whole truth, but nothing but the truth. Why should she wants to show us survivors do so, what they suffered, they were free to tell us what they wish. I had a cousin who was a slave labour in Dakar. He told me that he wished to share what he wished to share with me.” Of course, of course. You know what Anita always says to me, “Never judge anyone who was in hell. You don’t have the right,” you can judge the perpetrators, you can judge the collaborators, but never judge the victims. I, that frankly is my mantra. I do not judge. How can we? How can we judge? How can we judge?

Q: What is the best book on?

A: Well, Tom Segev, actually, I would read Tom Segev.

Q: Do I know the interesting book, “Year Zero: A History of 1940”?

A: No, I don’t.

David Garfield said, “Read it, it’s a good book,” thank you.

Please relate to Eli Rosenbaum’s critical comments on recent I was relating, yes, Alan, because I was running out of time. I don’t want to, Eli Rosenbaum lectured for us. And I’m actually asked, I’m going to see if I can have a conversation with him on Lockdown about it because he did in the end say “Thank goodness for Wiesenthal.” If you remember what I said at the beginning, this is his quote. “He started the battle a day after the Second World War. He paved the way.” You see it was Wiesenthal with that prodigious memory who started writing it down. Eli Rosenbaum is a fascinating man. I have the privilege of knowing him because my son-in-law, Phil, he was, he believe it or not, he was Britain’s only Nazi hunter. And Eli became a close friend of his so they worked together.

Q: Do we know if the German scientists who worked for the West, Wernher von Braun were antisemites?

A: That’s a very, very good question, David. I don’t know. I really don’t know except that they were educated in Nazi Germany. And you know, Einstein said something very interesting about the First World War. He said he blamed the teachers who had taught German students for 50 years. If you think about propaganda 1933 to ‘45, what was thrown into the faces of the German public. It’s a fascinating, that’s another huge story.

This is from Susan, “My parents were survivors. I know nothing about my father’s family and just a little about my mom’s family.” Some survivors didn’t want to talk. Some said they talked too much to their children, who knows? Who knows? Yeah.

Q: “Did Israel provide Wiesenthal with any security protection?”

A: I don’t know the answer to that, but everything I know about his relationship with the Mossad is probably yes.

Elaine, “Let us not undermine the Haredi Jews who continued aid-old practise subsuming all tragedies into the ninth of Av. The enormity of the Holocaust with 6 million martyrs was unprecedented. Even the modern state of Israel struggled and argued about a day and a name. The state found it difficult to acknowledge the totality of the 6 million victims. They focused on the ghetto uprisings, particularly, the Warsaw. In the early days, Israel was very uncomfortable with the Holocaust, which then represented the epitome of Jewish politics. They could only extract from the Holocaust, an event of fighting heroism. It took time for Israel to decide that the name of our commemoration would be Yom HaShoah, Holocaust and heroism, so that all the victims will be recognised. Even choosing a final date for the commemoration was an issue because what date in the course of the six-year war of persecution would be appropriate?”

Yes, Elaine, we could actually have a very long debate about that because every point you made has to be unpacked. And it’s a very, very interesting thing you put before it. Now, you’ve got to remember the Haredi who commemorate the ninth of Av, they, percentage-wise, they lost far more than any other group, depending on what historian you want to deal with. Some historians put it as high as 94% of the ultra-Orthodox were murdered in the Shoah. It’s too soon, isn’t it? Can you murder a third of a people without the other two thirds having the most extraordinary, you know, isn’t it the title of that book, “Genius & Anxiety.”

Please say how more Wiesenthal did his work trace, have you got another hour? He collect, to start with, he had a prejudice memory. The other, he started it, but he also had a team of 30 people. A lot of people gave information to him and he collected, he collected, he collected. And he did work with all sorts of people underground Posner, “In his book, Mengele says that Wiesenthal often claimed he was about to capture the notorious doctor, but never became close.

He also states that Wiesenthal used the Mengele case basically for fundraising. Any thoughts on this?” Wiesenthal is a very controversial figure. That’s why I said to you, that’s why his most, I think his strongest critic, it is probably Eli Rosenberg. That’s why I gave you his quote at the beginning. Look, in the end, what everyone wants to think, and there’s been lots and lots of books written about him since, he paved the way. Yes, he was a very strong man. He did like the limelight, but having said that, he made it happen. Whether we like it or not, it was he who made it happen.

Sandy, “I travelled extensively in South America during the late '50s. I found it interesting that any Germans I met automatically gave their dates of immigration just so you knew who you were dealing with.” Now that’s interesting. I wonder if any of them told you that they got out between '45 and '50. T

his is from Arlene. “My great aunt was one of the children experimented on by Mengele.” Aye, yai, yai, yai. What can we say? What can we say? What kind of individual, he was a medical doctor. We expected better. There’s that, that’s that case in England of the nurse who murdered babies and everyone’s up in arms. How can a nurse… When are we going to understand that we need to look in a different direction for justice and goodness?

“When we talk about,” this is Olivia, “When we talk about justice for the victims, which can obviously never happen. We should also mention reparation. My mother, whose parents were murdered in Auschwitz and their property confiscated, was able to get some money from the German government for work done in the ghetto while she was still in Romania.” Olivia, it is insane. What can we say about it? Reparations, you’ve got to remember that West Germany under Adenauer desperately wanted rehabilitation. Yes, even though low grade Nazis were still being employed, Ben-Gurion needed that handshake from, beg your pardon. Adenauer needed the handshake from Ben-Gurion and Ben-Gurion needed German money. And reparations can never make up for the loss of children, parents. But in the end, at least we can say West Germany tried to do something. However, what we can also say is the Austrian didn’t for many, many, many, many years. And again, you’ve got the rise of the right in Austria and in Germany.

“I was told that the Spanish Inquisition killed more over time than did the Holocaust was.” Selena, that I am convinced is completely untrue, but I will check it for you. But I’m pretty sure that that isn’t true.

Rita says, “Mr. Wiesenthal embodies the quintessential meaning of the word, mensch.” “If Eisenhower not insisted on photographing the camps that were liberated, it would’ve been even easier for the deniers. He needs to be given credit.” Yes, I think a lot of the liberators were absolutely horrified. They were hardened soldiers, remember? And in fact, when the British liberated Belsen, there was a man working for the BBC called Sidney Bernstein. And he later on became a big mogul in England. In fact, those of you who are British, he created “Coronation Street” as a part of Granada. Now, he was working with Hitchcock, “Under Capricorn” and he asked Hitchcock’s advice and Hitchcock said that “Time will come when it will be denied.” So he actually photographed it in the realm. And that film was to be shown all over Germany, but it wasn’t because the allies needed Germany. So ironically, later on when he was chairman of Granada, he made the film called “The Painful Reminder,” and his film is at the centre of the film of why the allies never showed it. “Through the conference on Jewish material claims against Germany.” Yes, that’s very important. That’s very important, Olivia, it’s another subject.

This is from Anna. “I met him when he wrote a book in the 1980s and interviewed by Connie Martinson in Los Angeles and I was the associate producer. We were all over on.” I can imagine you were. He was an, I mean my son-in-law met him and said he was absolutely extraordinary. Oh yes, the documentary about the life I’ve never forgotten you. You should see the documentaries. You should also look at “Max and Helen.” It’s a film made about that book he wrote.

Q: “What do you think of Eva Kor Auschwitz survivor who fought for forgiveness? I met her at the 50th anniversary of the camp’s liberation.”

A: Howard, it’s so complicated and in the end, in the end it’s personal. And I think over the Yom Tovim we are having a couple of presentations onto shiva, because we have a couple of rabbis talking about it as well. I think it’s such a deeply important issue. That’s one of the reasons I wanted to do these, begin the story of Wiesenthal, I should say around this time, because obviously, I haven’t talked about Kreisky or about Waldheim and I haven’t given the whole, I’ve got file of information I wanted to give.

Q: “Who followed on with Simon Wiesenthal’s work in pursuing anti-Semites today? Most Nazis are dead. But what about the Arabs and Neo-Nazis?”

A: Ah, “You’ve got Efraim Zuroff” says Naomi Efraim Zuroff, of course has already spoken on Lockdown and I think we could bring him back. We’re very lucky in our circle of acquaintances.

This is from Bob, “Shalom from Prescott, Arizona. Do you think it reasonable to believe that a third of German soldiers enjoyed killing, a third preferred not to kill, but since they were ordered to and a third refuse to kill? Bless Simon Wiesenthal for his work in pursuit of the Nazi forgivers, killers cannot forgive.”

Hermione, “My father was arrested after Kristallnacht and sent to Sachsenhausen, fortunately he was able to leave Germany and he was one of the lucky people who had sponsors in Rhodesia, so in his family could leave.” You see, that’s interesting, Hermione, does that not illustrate that Hitler was prepared to let people out? And that’s another problem because thank goodness, your father-in-law had a sponsor. What about those people who didn’t?

This is from Cyril. “My mother came from Germany but lost her parents and so many of her relations in the Holocaust.”

Q: “Went to Poland, got a raw reception from the town. How can we continue education with the town? Can we get in touch with you?”

A: Yes, of course you can. If you send a note to Lockdown, it will be sent to the Lockdown email. It will be sent on to me.

Jonathan Gestetner, hi Jonathan. He said, “Hugo said he could forgive but not forget.” Well, Hugo was in a camp, so he had the right, didn’t he? I don’t know. He was an extraordinary man. “Like many, I suspect even though I’m the daughter and granddaughter of survivors, I feel so protective of my father and he’s been gone for 30 years. However much I know, I’m still shocked over and over again.” Because it’s shocking, it’s really, really shocking. And you know, there are those who say that the Shoah is in many ways the defining moment in so-called Western civilization, so-called. And there are many who say that it was the nadia of Western civilization and what can really come out of the West since the Shoah. Now think about that. I don’t need quick answers 'cause I don’t know any, I’m just repeating to you what some philosophers think.

Q: “Did Rudi Leavor have contact with Wiesenthal?”

A: I don’t know, but I know that Rudi Leavor was amazing. I had the privilege of meeting him, he was extraordinary.

“Genius & Anxiety,” Norman Lebrecht, of course. Thank you.

“My Viennese mother eventually did get compensation from the Austrian government.” Yes, Austria wanted to join IHRA, I-H-R-A. It was known as ITF in those days. And that was one of the, you want to join, you’ve got to start giving compensation.

Elaine, “The Christian focus on forgiveness does not come from a good place, thanks to the death of one Jew known as Jesus. We Jews have suffered centuries of persecution and death, and the Christians practise the religion of love hardly.” It’s pretty strong, Elaine. Can I lighten it? I hope because the only way I’ve ever been able to cope with these kind of presentations, no, I’m not. There’s a crack that a very naughty American comedian wrote. He actually wrote on a wall. I admit it, I killed him. “Neal Sher took over the office in the State Department and work with Wiesenthal to commute Nazis in the U.S. He was a dear friend.” Oh, that’s interesting.

Oh, this is from Julian, hi Julian. “Fascinating and scholarly recent book called 'Nazis on the Nile’ investigates the Nazis that NASA regime welcomed into Egypt. I personally came across some of these people in their old age during my visit to Egypt.” Julian, you must lecture on it. Lecture on it, please, Julian. Julian’s one of our star lecturers. I think we better stop there, it’s 20 past six. Hannah and Lauren, thank you very much. Thank you all very much and we will see you again. What’s today? I’ve lost all track of time.

Of course, you have Rabbi Shippel tomorrow and next week we go back to, I believe we’re going back to England. Is that not true? Yes, anyway, take care all of you and lots of love, bye.