Patrick Bade
Jerome Kern

Patrick Bade - Jerome Kern

- So with Jerome Kern, we come this evening, well, it’s this evening to me, to another great American songwriter. With over 700 songs to his credit and amongst them, to my mind, some of the most beautiful songs composed in the 20th century. And of course, “Show Boat,” the great Broadway musical, the greatest of all. Straightaway for me it raises the interesting question, why it is composers of recent immigrant stock who were the ones who so perfectly expressed the soul and the spirit of America. Of course, you could say, unless you’re of Native American ancestry, everybody in America is descended from immigrants. And to me, this is the secret of American greatness in the 20th century. The incredible energy and creativity that was generated by the process of immigration. So those people who carry on about wanting to make America great again, I think they need to really take stock of that, that’s a very important fact about America. It’s what made America the greatest country in the world in the 20th century. And the other question that arises is, yes, they are of of immigrant stock, but very specifically of Jewish ancestry. And even then it’s Ashkenazi and it’s Eastern, central and eastern European background. Although of course you also have to remember that they created an idiom, they borrowed elements of that idiom, of course, from another immigrant group, the Afro Americans. But then another thought occurs, it’s of course not just in America. I think it is a very specifically Jewish thing, that Jewish intellectuals, artists, wherever they go in the world, they have this chameleon quality of taking on the colour and the character of the place.

And for instance, and if any filmmaker wants to conjure up the spirit of Berlin, the composers he’s likely to use would be Kurt Weill, Polansky, those German Jewish composers of the 1920s. Anybody wanting to evoke the spirit of Paris is likely to use the music of Jacques Offenbach, who of course was not French at all. He was German, born in Cologne. He referred to himself as Eau de Cologne. Never, never lost his German accent, but wrote music that seems to us to be quintessentially French and Parisian. So here is the little Jerome Kern as a small child, and you can see from his lacy collar that he was brought up in comfortable circumstances. His father, Henry Kern, had immigrated from Germany and he married his mother Fannie on the left-hand side. She was actually born in America, but her family came from Bohemia and they lived on East 56th Street. His father was a successful businessman. So very different kind of background. He never had the struggles that, say, Irving Berlin had, and even George Gershwin to some extent came from a much less secure background in his childhood. So his father wanted him to enter the business, but he showed no aptitude whatsoever for his father’s business and he showed musical talent and the father eventually sent him off to Europe to study music seriously in Heidelberg. It’s a very picturesque city that you see on the screen. And then he came back to New York and initially working in a very humble way as a rehearsal pianist. And once again, as a song plugger, rather like Gershwin and Berlin. Eventually he wrote songs that got published. And for the first 10 years of his career, he wrote songs to be inserted into other people’s shows. This was quite normal at the time.

Later on we think of musicals by Richard Rodgers or Leonard Bernstein or whoever, Gershwin, and it’s the creation of one composer. But the kind of musicals that were put on in New York and London in the early 1900s were really hodgepodges. Especially when they transferred things, shows were transferring backwards between London and New York, and then they would be altered to suit the local tastes and other composers would be invited to insert songs. And very early on from 1904, Jerome Kern was working on shows that were being presented in London, producing the odd song. And so he crossed the Atlantic many times. And in 1909, while he was staying in Britain he took a boat trip on the River Thames. And they stopped at Walton on Thames, and he went to the local pub called the the Swan. It’s still there. And he fell in love with the landlord’s daughter who was working there as a barmaid. And they married the following year, as you can see, there is a blue plaque on the building commemorating this. And here on the left, a photo from the 1920s of his wife Eva and their daughter Betty and a photo taken much longer. It was an enduring marriage. It was basically a very happy marriage. So he was doing quite well and in demand. He didn’t have much name recognition right up until 1913. His big breakthrough song was “They Didn’t Believe Me.” This was one of five songs that he was asked to insert into actually a British show that transferred to Broadway. It was called “The Girl from Utah.” So it even had an American setting. It was actually an English show with music by Paul Rubins and by Sidney Smith. Sidney Jones, rather, Sidney Jones, who might just be familiar to you for his musical, “The Geisha.” Anyway, this is an extremely catchy song, and it really took off and it became the hit of the show and people were dancing to it all over America. ♪ And when I ♪

• So after that he was in a much better position to put on whole shows entirely with songs by him. And between 1914 and the early ‘20s there was a whole series of very successful shows. And he worked with this team. You can see him on the extreme right. And there his two impresarios. On the extreme left is Morris Gest, real name Moishe Gershonovitz. And to his immediate right is Ray Comstock. And the two men in the middle are his librettists, both of them British or I suppose you could say Anglo-American. There’s PG Wodehouse, left middle, and Guy Bolton, who’s the figure in the centre. And they were an extremely successful team. And they took over a small theatre called Princess Theatre. You can see it’s quite a modest theatre. And they had a whole series of successful shows. One of them was called “Oh, Boy.” And these shows, none of them have really lasted. But each of them contained songs which have lasted, which continue to be performed to this day and have been taken on by many performers. And the hit song from “Oh, Boy” was “Till the Clouds Roll By.” And that became almost a signature tune for him. And it was the title chosen for the biopic, the film about his life, rather fictional film, I have to say, that was made in 1946. Then into the '20 he’s really in demand and the big guys are after him, notably Florenz Ziegfeld. And in particular for two tremendously successful shows that were vehicles for the top female musical star on Broadway in the 1920s, Marilyn Miller. And the first of these shows was “Sally” and the hit song, “Sally,” it’s a rags to riches story about a girl who’s a dishwasher who eventually becomes a big star on Broadway.

And the the hit song from that was “Look for the Silver Lining.” And this is a recording actually from soundtrack of a movie that was made a bit later with the original star, Marilyn Miller. ♪ As I set these tables, I’ll be following your plan ♪ ♪ Till I see the brightness in every plate and pan ♪ ♪ I am sure your point of view will ease the daily grind ♪ ♪ So I’ll keep repeating in my mind ♪ ♪ Look for the silver lining ♪ ♪ Whenever a cloud appears in the blue ♪ ♪ Remember, somewhere the sun is shining ♪ ♪ And so the right thing to do ♪ ♪ Is make it shine for you ♪ ♪ A heart, full of joy and gladness ♪ ♪ Will always banish sadness and strife ♪ ♪ So always look for the silver lining ♪ ♪ And try to find ♪ ♪ The sunny side of life ♪

• As I said, Marilyn Miller was this huge, huge star, absolutely adored by the New York public. But her magic didn’t translate to the silver screen. I think she made just three movies just as sound was introduced in Hollywood and none of them really took off. But the the other great hit she had on Broadway, with songs by Jerome Kern, was “Sunny.” And the the hit song from that show was “Who?” ♪ Who stole my heart away ♪ ♪ Who makes me dream all day ♪ ♪ Dreams I know can never comes true ♪ ♪ Seems as though our love will be blue ♪ ♪ Oh who means my happiness ♪ ♪ Who would I answer yes to ♪ ♪ Well you ought to guess ♪

• All these shows marked a progress towards a more integrated type of musical before the First World War 'cause the hit shows on Broadway had been very European. They were Viennese operettas, Lehman, Kahn, people like that, or imitations of them, and the alternative to that was the revue, the sort of shows that were put on by Florenz Ziegfeld, which were just really a collection of songs and dances and spectacles and lots of scantily clad girls, but nothing really unifying them. But these musicals by Jerome Kern with text by Guy Bolton and PG Wodehouse, they actually told a story and the songs were integrated into the dramatic action to some extent. But the real breakthrough, the really innovative Broadway musical, was “Show Boat” that came out in 1927. And I think it’s difficult now to imagine just how bold and how innovative it was. It was based on a recent bestselling novel by Edna Ferber about the show boats that used to go run up and down the Mississippi River taking entertainments to the various communities and cities along the river. So this was really the first time that you could describe a Broadway musical to use a Wagnerian term, as a , a total work of art, with the songs and the dancers all fully elevated, integrated, telling a very serious story. And also not just boy meets girl, but with some very serious social issues involved, particularly racism, alcoholism. And there’s a tragic aspect of the story as well. It’s not entirely a happy ending that we get with “Show Boat.” And immediately it was really accepted as a masterpiece. And it has been revived pretty well constantly ever since. There have been three filmed versions, 1929, 1936, 1951. There are numerous, numerous recordings of it.

And the whole thing, not just the hit songs. So I’m going to play you, this is actually not from the soundtrack of the movie, but it’s a recording made at the time of the 1936 version, which starred, it stars Irene Dunn as the heroine Magnolia. And this is the moment, you can see actually this is a still where you can see it being filmed. And you can see the filming equipment. She’s on a balcony on the boat and he’s on the key and he looks up to her and it’s a Romeo and Juliet moment. And they fall instantly in love with one another and they sing a duet, “Let’s Make Believe.” But in this version, which is recorded in the studio, it’s sung as a solo by the lovely Irene Dunn. ♪ The game of just supposing is the sweetest game I know ♪ ♪ Our dreams are more romantic than the world we see ♪ ♪ And if the things we dream about don’t happen to be so ♪ ♪ That’s just an unimportant technicality ♪ ♪ We could make believe I love you ♪ ♪ We could make believe that you love me ♪ ♪ Others find peace of mind in pretending ♪ ♪ Couldn’t you, couldn’t I, couldn’t we ♪ ♪ Make believe our lips are blending ♪ ♪ In a phantom kiss or two or three ♪ ♪ Make as well make believe that I love you ♪ ♪ For to tell the truth I do ♪

• Delicious singer. I think she has such a lovely voice. She was not in the very first cast, but she was in the first revival of the cast on Broadway. And she was a singer, Ms Irene Dunn, who became particularly associated with Jerome Kern. I come to some quite thorny issues to do with this piece. With hindsight there are some people looking back on it who are disturbed by what they see as racist elements in the original version, particularly, I suppose, it’s the stereotypical depiction of the characters of Joe, played by Paul Robeson, and Queenie, played by Hattie McDaniel. Joe is the likeable, lazy, good for nothing. And I think for some people that’s problematic. And also there is a big controversy about the text itself. This is by Oscar Hammerstein Jr. And in particular the use of the N word, which I don’t wish to pronounce over the internet. But last time somebody brought up Kate Smith and the fact that her rendition of “God Bless America” has been dropped because it was discovered that in 1931 she had made recordings which used the words darkie and pickaninny, which now seem to us to be very derogatory. And I’d really like to address that because I think what we need to do with all these things, I can see probably the Q and A questions are going to go leaping up here. But I would say before you put comments in, stop a moment to think and ask yourself questions firstly about context and intention. And in the case of the Kate Smith, 1931, the terms darkie and pickaninny, as far as white people are concerned, I imagine it might be a bit different if you were Black you’d probably have found them already rather condescending, if not insulting, but they were very common usage. You find 'em in many, many songs of the periods that clearly have no racist intent. And I feel that probably Kate Smith, she was handed these songs to sing and record and she did, she probably didn’t give it the second thought.

And I bet it never occurred to her for a minute that those texts she was singing was denigratory or derogatory. It’s a bit different with the opening chorus by Hammerstein of “Show Boat.” And so I put it on the screen, I hope it won’t upset people. This is a chorus, the very first words of the piece when the curtain goes up and it’s actually a chorus of Black workers who sing this. Now, the N word was never an innocent word, it was always nasty. But I think in a way all these words actually evolved. They changed. I think it’s become an awful lot nastier than it was in the 1920s. I’m thinking of a recent case of a presidential candidate who I will not name, who accused a Black judge of being a rigour. And that was obviously a dog whistle way of appealing to the racism of his followers. And I think that’s totally inexcusable. I’m talking here about intention, the intent there was a very wicked, inexcusable intent. I think the intention of Hammerstein and Jerome Kern was quite the opposite. They were very liberal and it was a very brave thing to put this on stage in New York. Nobody had put Black and white performers onto the stage in an equal way before “Show Boat.” This was something entirely new. It was very, very controversial. And their intention was to really strike a blow for racial equality. They would really, what can I say? They were on the side of the angels. Now whether you think that today this could be performed on stage with these words, that’s another matter. Because as I said, words evolve, their meanings evolve. And you may think, “No, this is absolutely unacceptable to have these words sung from a stage on Broadway or in London.”

I’d be quite interested to know what you think about that. But I would really wish to defend both Jerome Kern and Oscar Hammerstein in this case. Now, the most famous song, of course, is “Old Man River.” And the role of Joe was from the very first conceived for Paul Robeson, who was already quite a big star on Broadway. And this song was completely written to suit his voice and his tessitura, his range of his voice. And it became associated with him for the rest of his career, somewhat to his irritation. And later after the war, when he was asked to sing it, when he was asked to sing it, for instance, in Moscow in 1949, he changed the words. So they were no longer as passive sounding. He was no longer accepting his fate. So it actually became a song of protest in his later performances of it. But here it is recorded at the time in the 1930s. ♪ Old man river, that old man river ♪ ♪ He must know something, but don’t say nothing ♪ ♪ He just keeps rolling, he keeps on rolling along ♪ ♪ He don’t plant taters, he don’t plant cotton ♪ ♪ And them that plants 'em is soon forgotten ♪ ♪ But old man river he just keeps rollin’ along ♪ ♪ You and me, we sweat and strain ♪ ♪ Body all achin’ and racked with pain ♪ ♪ Tote that barge, lift that bale ♪ ♪ And sometimes you lands in jail ♪ ♪ I gets weary and sick of trying ♪ ♪ Tired of living and scared of dying ♪ ♪ But old man river he just keeps rollin’ along ♪

• Of course there are so many wonderful songs in “Show Boat.” But the other one I’d like to play you is “Bill.” This was actually a song that had been written much earlier with by Jerome Kern to words by PG Wodehouse. And it’s been tried out in more than one show and dropped because it was felt to be too downbeat and depressing. But somehow it found its niche with the character of Julie, who’s a very tragic character in “Show Boat.” And just as “Old Man River” became indelibly associated with Paul Robeson, the song “Bill” became completely associated with Helen Morgan. And in a way it became a biographical song. It actually reflected her own tragic fate in life. And she sang it in the Broadway premier and in the first two filmed versions of “Show Boat.” ♪ I used to dream that I would discover ♪ ♪ The perfect lover someday ♪ ♪ I knew I’d recognise him if ever he came round my way ♪ ♪ I always used to fancy ♪ ♪ That he’d be one of the godlike kind of men ♪ ♪ With a giant brain and a noble head ♪ ♪ Like the heroes found in the books I read ♪ ♪ But along came Bill, who’s not that kind at all ♪ ♪ You could meet him on the street and never notice him ♪ ♪ His warm embrace, his manly way ♪ ♪ Is not the kind that you would find in a tableau ♪ ♪ I can’t explain, it’s surely not his brain ♪ ♪ That made me thrill ♪ ♪ I love him ♪ ♪ Because he’s wonderful ♪ ♪ Because he’s just my Bill ♪

• So that’s 1927, the premier of “Show Boat.” And of course it’s the same year that sound came to Hollywood in the form of “The Jazz Singer.” So it took a year or so really to iron out all the technical problems, you know all about that, of course from “Singing in the Rain.” But once we’re into the ‘30s, it’s Hollywood that becomes the great employer of the leading songwriters. I’ve already told you about Gershwin and Irving Berlin. And Jerome Kern had his share in all of this. My next great Irving Berlin song is from a musical that actually was conceived for Broadway as vehicle for Irene Dunn and then almost immediately was transformed into a film in Hollywood. And the ravishingly beautiful and very moving song from “Roberta” is “Smoke Gets In Your Eyes.” ♪ They asked me how I knew ♪ ♪ My true love was true ♪ ♪ I, of course, replied ♪ ♪ Something here inside cannot be denied ♪ ♪ They said, someday you’ll find all who love are blind ♪ ♪ When your heart’s on fire ♪ ♪ You must realise smoke gets in your eyes ♪

• Now in the wonderful series of films made by Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers, of course, they had the top, top songwriting talent. They had Gershwin for “Shall We Dance?” They had Irving Berlin for “Top Hat.” And actually, I think my own favourite film, I love them all, of course, but my own favourite film in the series is “Swing Time.” And this has a whole series of fabulous songs by Jerome Kern with words by another librettist, Dorothy Fields. Very charming, very witty, particularly this song, which is “A Fine Romance,” which actually won an Oscar, first of two Oscars that Jerome Kern won for Best Song.

♪ A fine romance, with no kisses ♪ ♪ A fine romance, my friend, this is ♪ ♪ We should be like a couple of hot tomatoes ♪ ♪ But you’re as cold as yesterday’s mashed potatoes ♪ ♪ A fine romance, you won’t nestle ♪ ♪ A fine romance, you won’t wrestle ♪ ♪ I’ve never mussed a crease in your blue serge pants ♪ ♪ I never had the chance ♪ ♪ This is a fine romance ♪ ♪ A fine romance, my good fellow ♪ ♪ You take romance. I’ll take Jell-o ♪ ♪ You’re calmer than the seals in the Arctic Ocean ♪ ♪ At least they flap their fins to express emotion ♪ ♪ A fine romance with no quarrels ♪ ♪ With no insults and all the morals ♪ ♪ You’re just as hard to land as the Isle de France ♪ ♪ I never get the chance ♪ ♪ This is a fine romance ♪ ♪ A fine romance, with no kisses ♪ ♪ A fine romance, my friend, this is ♪ ♪ True love should have the thrills ♪ ♪ that a healthy crime has ♪ ♪ We don’t have half the thrills ♪ ♪ That “The March of Time” has ♪ ♪ A fine romance, with no clinches ♪ ♪ A fine romance, with no pinches ♪ ♪ You never give the orchids I send a glance ♪ No, you like cactus plants ♪ This is a fine romance ♪

• Of course Ginger is delicious, but when Fred sings it, he really gives a demonstration of perfect timing, perfect phrasing, how to put across a song like that. But it’s the final scene of this film, which I can just watch again and again, when Fred sings “Never Going to Dance.” And then they’d go into this marvellously, graceful, effortless dance routine, which ends with them going up either side of his horseshoe staircase and leaping out of shot at the top. And of course, it’s famous for having been actually one of the most difficult scenes to film in the history of Hollywood. Things kept on going wrong. Lamps blew. On one occasion, just as they did a perfect take of it Fred’s toupee came off. They did it again and again and again all the way through the night until the point where Ginger’s dance shoes were full of blood. But you wouldn’t get any of that if you do watch it on YouTube, it is the most, as I said, most exquisite and graceful scene. And here is Ginger. And notice that this nightclub, which is the epitome of sophistication of 1936, that all the tables are covered in cellophane. Cellophane was a recently invented material and thought to be dead sexy in the middle of the 1930s. And so here is the scene. And I’m going to play the song that leads into the final dance, “Never Going to Dance.” It’s got a wonderfully sad melancholic quality to it.

♪ Though I’m left without a penny ♪ ♪ The wolf was discreet, he left me my feet ♪ ♪ And so, I put them down on anything ♪ ♪ But the la belle, la perfectly swell romance ♪ ♪ Never going to dance, never going to dance ♪ ♪ Only going to love, never going to dance ♪ ♪ Have I a heart that acts like a heart ♪ ♪ Or is it a crazy drum ♪ ♪ Beating the weird tattoos ♪ ♪ Of the St. Louis blues ♪ ♪ Have I two eyes to see your two eyes ♪ ♪ Or see myself on my toes ♪ ♪ Dancing to radios ♪ ♪ Or Major Edward Bowes ♪ ♪ Though I’m left without a penny ♪ ♪ The wolf was discreet, he left me my feet ♪ ♪ And so, I put them down on anything but the la belle ♪ ♪ La perfectly swell romance ♪ ♪ Never going to dance, never going to dance ♪ ♪ Only going to love, never going to dance ♪

• So as I said, that has this sort of wistful, melancholy quality that you find in many of Jerome Kern’s songs. You find it in Gershwin’s songs as well. Think of “The Man I Love.” And it is sometimes, I’m going to raise another controversy or enter very controversial territory. Does this wistful, slightly sad quality in a popular song, is this a Jewish quality? Some people have identified it as such, including the English composer and writer Constant Lambert in his book “Music Ho” that came out in 1934. So it came out just around this time. I’m going to read you what he says, which is, and please understand that that what I’m reading you is in inverted commas, these are not my words. He phrases it in such an unpleasant way with a real tinge, a real sting, I think a real tinge of antisemitism. But the point he’s making is, I think an interesting one that’s worth thinking about. He says, “The fact that at least 90% of jazz tunes are written by Jews undoubtedly goes far to account for the curiously sagging quality so typical of Jewish art, the almost masochistic melancholy of the average foxtrot.” Well, I’m sure you agree that is phrased in a very unpleasant way, but it’s a point to consider. So another collaboration with the wonderful Irene Dunn, the film “High, Wide, and Handsome,” which is a Western and another enchanting song, I think also with a kind of wistfulness about it. But to me it’s very also very American, this song, the sentiment of the song about this woman wanting to build this house on the hill where she’s going to spend the rest of her life. And it makes me think of another great American artist, of course, Edward Hopper.

♪ Many men with lofty aim strive for lofty goals ♪ ♪ Others play a smaller game, being simpler souls ♪ ♪ I am of the latter kind, all I want to do ♪ ♪ Is to find a plot of land ♪ ♪ And live there with you ♪ ♪ Someday we’ll build a home on a hilltop high ♪ ♪ You and I, shiny and new, a cottage that two can fill ♪ ♪ And we’ll be pleased to be called ♪ ♪ The folks who live on the hill ♪ ♪ Someday we may be adding a thing or two ♪ ♪ A wing or two ♪ ♪ We will make changes as any family will ♪ ♪ But we will always be called ♪ ♪ The folks who live on the hill ♪ ♪ Our veranda will command a view of meadows green ♪ ♪ The sort of view that seems to want to be seen ♪ ♪ And when the kids grow up and leave us ♪ ♪ We’ll sit and look at the same old view ♪ ♪ Just we two ♪ ♪ Darby and Joan who, used to be Jack and Jill ♪ ♪ The folks who like to be called ♪ ♪ What they have always been called ♪ ♪ The folks who live on the hill ♪

• This for me, is one of the most heartrending and touching songs of Jerome Kern. Now, I haven’t addressed the issue of what comes first words or music. Cole Porter wrote all his own texts. Irving Berlin wrote many of his texts. With Gershwin, he usually wrote the tune and then he handed it over to his brother Ira and Ira wrote the words to go with the tune. With Jerome Kern, he could go either way. He might come up with a wonderful tune and ask somebody to write words to it but more often than not, actually, he was given the text and it was the text that inspired the tune and that was the case with “The Last Time I Saw Paris.” This was not actually written for a show or a movie. It was an independent song. And it was Oscar Hammerstein, he was, like so many people around the world, he was absolutely appalled when Paris fell, when the Germans entered the city. Paris, the beacon of Western civilization, the town of light, under the Nazi jack boot. This was a terrible, terrible thing for him. And he spontaneously wrote the poem and he took the poem to Jerome Kern. And Kern came up with a wonderful melody for it. The song was immediately very popular and it was included in a 1942 film called “Lady Be Good.” And it won his second academy award for Best Song. He actually protested. He said, “No, no, this song shouldn’t be in the running, because it wasn’t actually written for the movie.” But here it is.

♪ The last time I saw Paris ♪ ♪ Her heart was warm and gay ♪ ♪ I heard the laughter of her heart in every street cafe ♪ ♪ The last time I saw Paris ♪ ♪ Her trees were dressed for spring ♪ ♪ And lovers walked beneath those trees ♪ ♪ And birds found songs to sing ♪ ♪ I dodged the same old taxi cabs that I had dodged before ♪ ♪ The chorus of their squeaky horns was music to my ears ♪ ♪ The last time I saw Paris, her heart was young and gay ♪ ♪ No matter how they change her ♪ ♪ I’ll remember her that way ♪

• Now of the dozens of shows that that Jerome Kern composed music, for only one has really stood the test of time as stage worthy. And that is, of course, “Show Boat.” But all of them contain wonderful songs. And if the shows died, the songs live on. And I’m going to finish with another very lovely song that was written for a show called “Music in the Air” in 1932. And this is a more recent recording by by Thomas Hamson of “The Song is You.” ♪ I hear music when I look at you ♪ ♪ A beautiful theme of every dream I ever knew ♪ ♪ Down deep in my heart I hear it play ♪ ♪ I feel it start, then melt away ♪ ♪ I hear music when I touch your hand ♪ ♪ A beautiful melody from some enchanted land ♪ ♪ Down deep in my heart, I hear it say ♪ ♪ Is this the day ♪

• I can see there are lots of questions so I’m going to go into that.

Q&A and Comments:

It’s true. “Oklahoma,” was another big, big, Arlene, I would agree that “Oklahoma” was another very, very important milestone in the history of the musical but certain aspects of it were already anticipated by “Show Boat.”

This is Barry who says that “They Didn’t Believe Me” was the first song in four four time, a standout hit in a Broadway show. And I didn’t know that, Joe, that he was called Jerome because his parents were racegoers and they often visited Jerome Park race course.

“Marilyn was an unknown name till Marilyn Miller. But those born in the '40s and '50s were named after her, not after Marilyn Monroe.” That’s right. They wouldn’t be, 'cause she wasn’t known at that time. I wonder if you also know that Edith Piaf is named after Edith Cavell 'cause she was born in 1917, the year that Edith Cavell was shot by the Germans.

Yes, Barbara, I also have that 1988 recording, which does use the original words with the N word, but it was very, very controversial even at that time. And the chorus needed a lot of persuading to be able to sing it.

Ron saying, “Cole Porter tipped his hat to Kern in this lyric in his song 'From Alpha to Omega,’ closely akin to Porter’s ‘You’re the Top.’ He was a great admirer. ‘From love songs by Schumann to hits by Jerry Kern.’” Yes, I really think that the best songs of these composers can compare with the best songs of the German Romantics, Schubert and Schumann.

This is Gita who says best “Show Boat” she saw was a collaboration with the National Theatre and Royal Opera House in Manchester. Wonderful. Yes, I saw that and I loved it too. Edna Ferber, also, of course, from German Jewish background. It’s very interesting what an important role Jewish immigrants to America played in the civil rights movement. I think there’s a whole lecture in that.

This is Barry, “‘Show Boat’ would’ve been even more innovative had not Ziegfeld forced Kern and Hammerstein to lighten the script under the threat of withdrawing his backing.” Of course, Ziegfeld was a businessman and culturally I suppose, more conservative, “Nothing compares to the original vintage sound.

Q: Could the recordings possibly be engineered so that sound quality, the voices, become more contemporary?”

A: I’m not sure what you are asking. I’m absolutely against interfering with historical recordings, trying to, inverted commas, improve them. It never improves them. It always ruins them. And I’m afraid my own preference is for the historical recordings. So those are the ones I use.

This is Amara. I think only half your thing has come through. Oh yes. “But more importantly the time factor.” Not quite sure what you are saying there.

“Kate Smith was politically far right fanatic.” That I don’t know, I have to accept that from you. And you are saying it’s her views that got her dropped, not just a few songs. Well I think you probably know more about this than I do, so I’m not going to take issue with that at all. “

Thank you for your stand against Presentism by which behaviours of the distant past.” Yes, I think you must look at the context and you can’t dismiss everything that doesn’t agree with present attitudes. “Pickaninny means small child, a term used in Africa, not only for people of darker skin, so obviously it’s a term that originally did not have racist connotations.” “The introduction to ‘Old Man River’ is so worthwhile to hear along with the song and I hope you noticed all these wonderful recitatives.” That’s another thing. Of course you get in the original recordings and you tend not to in the later recordings. Somebody commented on that last time. “Believe the opening lines of ‘Show Boat’ in present day productions are, "We’re all working on the Mississippi.”

Thank you, Lorna. Yes. It’s difficult actually, I’ll tell you, an opera that simply cannot be put on today with its original words is “The Magic Flute.” Especially in these days where you have surtitles. There are lines in Monostatos’s aria which are totally and outrageously racist. You just couldn’t have them on a screen above the stage.

“In ‘Ma Rainey’s Black Bottom’ Afro-Caribbean actors playing members of her band use the N word all the time.” Yeah, it’s a different thing isn’t it? If Black people are using it it’s very different than if white people are using it about Black people.

“Note the orchestration for the intro to ‘Old Man River’ and the quote,” yes, a direct quote. That’s another very interesting topic, is the very important influence of Dvorak on Afro-American composers. Florence Price, for instance, who’s very much a composer on vogue with Radio Three, they play her all the time. And I’m always struck by how strongly influenced by Dvorak she was.

Q: “The early female vocalists sound very specifically placed in their time period, is that dated?”

A: Well, I think it’s to do with technique, isn’t it? For me, Irene Dunn is just a very good singer who actually has a very good technique and vocal production, whatever the period.

This is Barbara, who would also defend writers of “Show Boat.” And you saw it in 1954 on the water. That must have been wonderful.

“The opening lines are written as if by African Americans.” You’re quite right in that point. I would underline that point too.

“Just after ‘Show Boat’ opening Kern and Hammerstein wrote a party where someone came over raving about Jerome’s Kern’s ‘Old Man River.’ Mrs. Hammerstein turned to the person and told her her husband Jerome Kern only wrote, ‘dum de dum de dum, my husband,’” I guess that’s a nice story, yes.

Q: “When collaborating, which came first music or the words?”

A: Well, I think I did answer that finally at the end.

Thank you, Alice, and thank you, Madeline, and thank you, Anthony.

“The N word is a corruption of the Spanish word.” Of course, the German word . I’m not sure how it would be today in Germany, but certainly , well, it probably was corrupted by the Nazis, but originally wouldn’t have had necessarily a racist, and the way words change, I mean, yes, gay is a very good example of how words change. I think it’s a pity in a way because I like the original meaning of the word gay and you can’t really use it that way anymore.

Monty. Yes, this whole business, it’s going too, I mean, woke is a good thing in principle. It’s just been taken too far by some people. And here is Susan who thinks that, yes, that melancholy is a Jewish thing. I really just put it to you for your opinion. I wouldn’t like to state one way or another. Yes, I know, I’m not very good technically at including moving pictures, sorry about that. Peggy Lee made a lovely recording of “The House on the Hill,” yes. Thank you all for your kind comments.

“Ira Gershwin wrote the lyrics of some of great Kern tunes, also late Kurt Weill, he wrote, Ira Gershwin continued very fruitful career after George’s death.” Thank you very much. I know I meant Edward Hopper. The picture I showed you is by Edward Hopper. It’s not by Andrew Wyeth.

“It appears to me that while Berlin, Gershwin, Porter, and others wrote tunes that have become jazz standards, not many Kern songs have.” That’s an interesting point. I need to think about it. Maybe, yes, it is possible that they don’t lend themselves quite to being jazzed up. He actually is on record of saying he didn’t like his songs to be jazzed up. “

Melancholy, nostalgia, yearning in music and lyrics. Perhaps so much of it was written by immigrants, not only Jewish.”

This is Helen whose mother used to sing songs. ‘Cause Irish would be another, Irish songs have a tremendous sense of yearning and sadness about them. “The Folk Who Live on the Hill.” I’m glad to have brought that back to you. It’s such a lovely song.

And this is Pat who’s music presses more buttons than most classical music. I can understand that. And as I said, I think the best Gershwin, Berlin, and Jerome songs can stand with the best classical songs.

Abby, I think everything is going to be online soon. Other shows that, “Annie Get Your Gun,” yes, “Carousel” gets done quite a bit actually. There’ve been a few productions in London while I’ve been around. I’m glad somebody likes my old recordings. People derogatory words may have interesting origins. Yes, I think we need to not necessarily immediately have a knee jerk reaction. As I said, I think you need to ask yourself why the word is being used and in what context. “All the Things You Are.” That’s another lovely song, isn’t it? “No Room To Play.” All the wonderful songs.

And I think, yes, Kern is quite a common German name. It’s not necessarily a Jewish name and I think it was his original name.

Q: “Will you do 'Porgy and Bess’?”

A: I’ve done Gershwin.

Jews and civil rights. I’ll talk about it with Trudi. I dunno whether she’d want to do it, but I think it would be a very interesting thing to do. Thank you all very, very much and I’ll see you again, I think, in a week’s time.