Professor David Peimer
Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong

Professor David Peimer - Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong

- So hi, everybody, and hope everybody is very well everywhere in the universe that we all are. So as you all, I’m sure everybody knows, August was meant to be a bit of a lighter sort of holiday flavour month. And I decided to end off my section with two of my favourites and absolute greats, Ella and Louis. And I might sound a bit like a radio DJ every now and then as we go through. But the sheer joy and magnificence of what these two achieved in their lives, I think, is quite extraordinary and absolutely worth much more than just this, you know, the one-hour session that we have together. So I want to share some of the joy and pleasure that I’ve always had, and I’m sure many people around the world have had as well with these two, I can only say, iconic greats. And I want to do one thing mainly, which is I’m going to interweave a little bit about their life stories and what I see how they’ve contributed to the remarkable growth of jazz. And by interweaving it rather than just do sort of life biography first and then play some of the songs. I debated quite a long time ‘cause there’s so many songs to show, but then came back to some of the great, great classics that I know we all love just because they are so brilliant and so eminently memorable. They just burn into the imagination forever. So we will share some of those as we go along with some thoughts. And then, afterwards, I know in September we kick into the more focused other aspects of literature and others that I’ll be doing as well. So welcome everybody, and let’s dive in to the great Ella and Louis.

One thing I do want to mention at the beginning is that I’m going to talk about a little bit briefly on their connection with some very interesting Jewish individuals that they knew very, very well, and how the influence of Norman Granz, who was Ella Fitzgerald’s mainly main manager through the main part of her career, and, pardon me, very early beginnings of Louis Armstrong and the Jewish fam, the Karnofsky family, that he was very close to, and the influence. I guess one of the most fascinating things, which I think has fascinated scholars and just lovers of jazz has been that these two and many others found and played so many of the remarkable Jewish composers’ work who were either immigrants to America themselves or, you know, sons or daughters of immigrants also. And that extraordinary overlap between Jewish immigrants writing these songs and these two coming from obviously a very tough, rough African-American background and the history obviously going back to slavery, and then pre-civil rights movement and so on. So that extraordinary synergy and overlap, which is fascinating. And do we put it down to just talking about the outsider status of both and how they saw each other? Both trying to assimilate or not, or both sort of outsider or semi-outsider trying to get into the dominant, whether it was white or Christian or whatever historical culture of most parts of America? So I think there’s fascinating intersections there. Is it more love of education or other things? You know, I think we can speculate about it, but it’s fascinating to observe that synergy between immigrant Jewish people and these remarkable African-American jazz musicians and singers.

So to start with Ella Jane Fitzgerald, who of course was slightly younger than Louis, she was called, as we all know I’m sure, the “Queen of Jazz.” And I think a couple of things that really stand out for me about her singing is the, not only the timing, which is obvious, and this remarkable voice. Okay, so just to get back to some of these thoughts here. Okay, so basically, you know, with Ella Fitzgerald, I was beginning with her and her singing ability in terms of her intonation and I guess one of the most remarkable features not only that incredible voice which can nuance in range in, you know, with such a vast range, but her ability what became known as scat singing. And scat singing is really using the voice, pardon me, as an improvisational instrument almost, improvisational musical instrument. So it’s not just improvising words in a song. Scat is much more imagining one is playing an actual instrument and using the voice like a musical instrument to improvise with, which is very different from just improvising with vocal sound or words even. So I think that’s really one of her great contributions to jazz singing and for Louis Armstrong, absolutely par excellence. And that became known as scat singing, which goes a whole step further from one might call improvisational voice use. So it’s one of the great contributions both she and Louis Armstrong made. She worked obviously for the Savoy Ballroom in Harlem. Norman Granz, as I mentioned, was the manager during the major part of her career founded Verve Records partly to help sell her records much more.

And of course, there’s some great collaborations with Ella and Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, just so, so many of them all. She wins 14 Grammy Awards, Presidential Medal. She’s born in Newport News, Virginia, comes from a Methodist family background in the Bethany African Methodist Episcopalian Church, which was very important as with many of the African-American musicians and singers of the time that they came from this kind of a gospel background in a way. She is very influenced, obviously, by Louis Armstrong, Bing Crosby, and she notes one of probably her favourite influence growing up were The Boswell Sisters. 1932, she’s 15, and her mother died of injuries in a car accident. And she was sent to the, in quote and inverted commas, “The Coloured Orphan Asylum” in the Bronx, unquote. And you know, she later forms Ella and her Famous Orchestra. And I think with the demise of swing and the decline of the big bands that would go with swing music, a big change happened in jazz. And this was the advent of bebop, as we all know, which this helped to lead to developments in vocal style. And of course, yes, she was really influenced by Dizzy Gillespie’s band as well. So first, she goes for bebop, and then realises actually there’s a hell of a lot more to music and in jazz and branches out much more on her own. And that starts to become the much more fascinating and influential part of her entire career, which I think is fantastic. Okay, so she then, she started the scat singing as part of her performance where she said, and I’m quoting her, she said, “I just tried to do with my voice what I heard the horns "in the band doing.” So it’s with her voice doing what the musical instruments are doing and playing along with that in that way. So again, it’s not just singing words or sounds from words or sounds from the voice but actually trying to sing along, to sing as if there are musical instruments in the voice. In 1945, one of the great scat recordings she did, “The New York Times” wrote, quote, “No one before Ms. Fitzgerald improvised with scat "with such dazzling inventiveness.”

And I think it’s absolutely spot on except for maybe Louis Armstrong. 1955, she left Decca Records. And Granz, her manager, and that’s when they created Verve Records. And that’s when she said, quote, “I had gotten to the point where I was only singing bebop. "But then, I realised there was much more "to music than just bebop.” And so much then takes off for her. Interestingly, in 1955, she has her first major gig at the Mocambo nightclub in Hollywood. And Marilyn Monroe had lobbied the owner for the booking for two reasons. Number one, that she was a great singer. And number two, of course, for racist reasons. And Marilyn Monroe was the one to come to her aid. A wonderfully interesting African-American playwright who lives in England, Bonnie Greer, she wrote a play about that incident. She called it “Marilyn and Ella” in 2008. The other thing that she contributes, and so does Louis Armstrong, is they take individual songwriters who are seen from the tradition of musical theatre or pop or wherever, and they help make that fusion between so-called serious musical exploration and so-called pop. And this fusion, this bridge overlaps is, I think, what she and Louis achieved remarkably. And of course, many others do as well. You know, and I think part of that is the link between immigrant Jewish people playwriting and mostly being sung by African-American jazz musicians and others. But the national audience in the country and in the world is probably predominantly white Christian. So it’s a fascinating, if you like, porous seeping through of identities that is going on through music in a way often that music can achieve.

She’s singing Cole Porter, Gershwin, and so many others. “Ella in Berlin,” and I’m going to play the one song, “Mack the Knife,” from that is one of the great recordings of course and one of her bestselling albums. She wins the Grammy for “Mack the Knife.” And she forgets the lyrics, and that’s when the scat you’ll see comes in. She obviously collaborated with Louis Armstrong, Count Basie, Duke Ellington. And one of her favourites was Frank Sinatra. And one of his favourites to collaborate with was Ella Fitzgerald. She then gets diabetes later in her life and, you know, of course, passes away in 1996. She was notoriously shy, and you can see it in the singing, which I’m going to show in 30 seconds. There’s a shyness about her. Very different to Louis Armstrong who’s got this very feisty, boisterous, so almost dazzling charisma as a performer. Whereas Ella Fitzgerald, I think, there’s a much deeper shyness about her. Maybe related to her youth? We’re not sure. One of the trumpet players in one of the bands later said about her, quoting, “She didn’t hang out with anybody much. "When she got into the band, "she was dedicated to the music. "She was a lonely girl in New York City. "She kept very much to herself.” She was not a groupie band fan in any way. So you know, even the musicians themselves working with her are aware of this kind of shyness. Okay, if we can go onto the next slide, please. Right, I’m going to start with Louis with one of the great songs we all know so well. If you can play it, please. Thanks, Lauren.

♪ I see trees of green ♪ ♪ Red roses too ♪ ♪ I see them bloom ♪ ♪ For me and you ♪ ♪ And I think to myself ♪ ♪ What a wonderful world ♪ ♪ I see skies of blue ♪ ♪ And clouds of white ♪ ♪ The bright blessed days ♪ ♪ The dark sacred nights ♪ ♪ And I think to myself ♪ ♪ What a wonderful world ♪ ♪ The colours of the rainbow ♪ ♪ So pretty in the sky ♪ ♪ Are also on the faces ♪ ♪ Of people going by ♪ ♪ I see friends shaking hands ♪ ♪ Saying, “How do you do” ♪ ♪ They’re really saying ♪ ♪ I love you ♪ ♪ I hear babies cry ♪ ♪ I watch them grow ♪ ♪ They’ll learn much more ♪ ♪ Than I’ll ever know ♪ ♪ And I think to myself ♪ ♪ What a wonderful world ♪ ♪ Yes, I think to myself ♪ ♪ What a wonderful world ♪

• Okay. ♪ Ooh, yes ♪

• Thanks, Lauren. Could we go to the next slide, please? So after this, I’m going to play another one of Louis’. Just to note that there, for me, what’s fascinating and why I chose this version of the song by him is because it’s this very subtle, nuanced version. It’s not the one we often hear, you know, recorded, which is much louder, and much bigger, sort of almost the big band sound and, you know, much more booming it out. It’s a much softer, nuanced, subtle one. And we just see, for me, the sheer joy in his eyes and his face and obviously that iconic smile. What he’s contributing also is he’s beginning, and one of the great influencers in jazz, is he is showing the solo singer, the solo musicianship, the solo player as well. And he helps that huge development in jazz where the solo performer, solo in this case, trumpet player, of course, becomes the key focus. Unless on the collective band, collective group, and even collective improvisation. He’s doing it. It’s much more now solo effort. And it’s one of the great contributions that Armstrong, of course, together with others, you know, bring into jazz. But I think we take for granted so much these days. I mean, he doesn’t play the trumpet once in that entire piece. Louis, of course, is one of the most influential, iconic figures in not only jazz but, I think, artistic history of the 20th century completely. Five-decade career. Going through so many eras of jazz and the history of jazz. Born in New Orleans and becoming such a national and international iconic figure. That remarkable voice, which is so rich, gravelly, we can go on and on with metaphors and phrases. But the inside that there is a little bit of scat, and he’s not using in that version. Here of course, he’s using sounds and so, but he’s trying to follow the instrument in his mind as opposed to just the voice on its own. And the extraordinary ability that both he and Ella and others achieved is, I guess, what Elvis in a way.

This cross-fertilization between so-called African-American and white audiences in these early days, ‘30, '40, '50s in the States and globally. And of course, you know, given the historical times. Armstrong lived with his mother and sister, and he often worked for the Karnofsky Family. I’m sure many know this. And they were a family of Lithuanian Jews. And mother and son worked there. And he would often help the two Karnofsky little boys, Morris and Alex. And he would, in his own words, “help them collect rags and bones and deliver coal.” In 1969, while Louis Armstrong was recovering from heart and liver and other problems in Beth Israel Hospital in New York, he wrote a memoir called “Louis Armstrong, the Jewish Family in New Orleans, La. "the year of 1907.” And it was a memoir describing his time with the Karnofsky Family. And he writes about singing “Russian Lullaby” with the family, with their baby son, little David. And he credits the family for teaching him to sing, to quote him, “from his heart.” And in fact, there’s some lyrics that appear in the same as the “Russian Lullaby,” which apparently, maybe, maybe not, were copyrighted by Irving Berlin in 1927. And the Karnofskys treated Louis Armstrong incredibly well, fed him, helped him, clothed him, gave him many things, nurtured him in a way with what he called they taught him how to live. They taught him determination, which, you know, one can read in the memoir. He discovers also, and he writes about this in the memoir, that this family, he realises, we’re also subject to discrimination, and I’m quoting him, he says, “by other white folks "who felt that they were better than this Jewish family.” And he goes on to write, “I was only seven, "but I could see the ungodly treatment "that white folks gave the poor Jewish family "who I worked for.” And then, he goes on to talk about what he learned from them. Interestingly, Armstrong wore the Star of David until the end of his life in memory of the Karnofsky Family. Okay, if we can play “Hello Dolly,” please. From a very early version.

♪ Hello, Dolly ♪ ♪ Well, hello, Dolly ♪ ♪ It’s so nice to have you back where you belong ♪ ♪ You’re lookin’ swell, Dolly ♪ ♪ I can tell, Dolly ♪ ♪ You keep glowin’ ♪ ♪ You’re still crowin’ ♪ ♪ You’re still goin’ strong ♪ ♪ I feel the room swayin’ ♪ ♪ And the band’s playin’ ♪ ♪ One of our old favourite tunes from way back when ♪ ♪ So take her wrap, fellas ♪ ♪ Find her an empty lap, fellas ♪ ♪ Dolly’ll never go away again ♪ ♪ Yeah, now ♪ ♪ I feel the room swayin’ ♪ ♪ And the band’s playin’ ♪ ♪ One of our old favourite tunes from way back when ♪ ♪ Yeah, by golly, gee, fellas ♪ ♪ Have a little faith in me, fellas ♪ ♪ Dolly’ll never go away ♪ ♪ Don’t you ever go away ♪ ♪ Dolly’ll never go away again ♪ ♪ La la ♪

• Right, thanks, Lauren. If we can go on to the next slide, please. Okay, I’m just going to come back to Ella. Just one or two things here. When he is doing that scat, when we hear the voice singing the word or stretching out the sound of the word and the note, again, he’s imagining in his mind that it’s the musical instrument, you know, that is doing it through his voice. That’s a fascinating and huge contribution to scat, what became known as scatting in jazz. As he wrote, and I’m quoting, “Every time I close my eyes, "blowing that trumpet of mine, "I look right in the heart of good old New Orleans "and often the Karnofsky Family. "It’s given me something to live for.” You know, and we can imagine, you know, it’s not just the song or the meaning of the song, it’s actually the New Orleans, his birth, his origin, early places of his life. It’s such a connection, which of course is connection to jazz and so much of huge events in African-American history. He drops out of school at the age of 11. At 15, he is pimping for a prostitute, but she ends up stabbing him, he’s okay. While he’s selling coal, he heard about what was called spasm bands at the time. Groups that played music with household objects, you know, pots and pans and knives and forks, et cetera. And he heard the early sounds of jazz from bands that played in brothels and dance halls, which he frequented at times. And of course, the great King Oliver, who was a huge influence on his career. And early on also, he played in the brass bands, the riverboats going up and down the Mississippi River.

And he taught himself to read music at the age of 20. ‘Cause he drops out of school at the age of 11 to teach himself to read, so he can read music by 20. And at 1922, he moved to Chicago at the invitation of King Oliver. And all race relations were terrible. And Chicago was booming of course. And obviously, not only the car factories and others but, you know, African-Americans were getting jobs in factories and elsewhere. And Oliver’s band was amongst the most influential jazz bands in Chicago in the early 1920s. And finally, and he writes about this, that’s when he got his own apartment with his first private bath with running water. Okay, if we can now take a little, as I said, we’re going to interweave the biographies with the music. One of the great versions of “Mack the Knife” of Kurt Weill, of course Jewish as well. As we all know, the German Emigre, who escaped the Nazis and gets to America. Anyway, this is her version live in Berlin.

• Thank you. We’d like to do something for you now. We haven’t heard a girl sing it. And since it’s so popular, we’d like to try and do it for you. We hope we remember all the words.

♪ Oh, the shark has pearly teeth, dear ♪ ♪ And it shows them pearly white ♪ ♪ Just a jackknife has MacHeath, dear ♪ ♪ And he keeps it out of sight ♪ ♪ Oh, the shark bites with his teeth, dear ♪ ♪ Scarlet billows start to spread ♪ ♪ Fancy gloves, oh, wears MacHeath, dear ♪ ♪ So there’s not, not a trace of red ♪ ♪ On a Sunday, Sunday morning ♪ ♪ Lies a body oozin’ life ♪ ♪ Someone’s sneaking ‘round the corner ♪ ♪ Tell me could it be, could it be, could it be ♪ ♪ Mack the Knife ♪ ♪ Oh, what’s the next chorus to this song now ♪ ♪ This is the one now I don’t know ♪ ♪ But it was the swinging tune ♪ ♪ And it’s a hit tune ♪ ♪ So we tried to do Mack the Knife ♪ ♪ Oh, Louis Miller ♪ ♪ Oh, something 'about the cash ♪ ♪ Yeah, Miller, he was spinnin’ that trash ♪ ♪ And MacHeath, dear, he spends like a sailor ♪ ♪ Tell me, tell me, tell me ♪ ♪ Could that boy do something rad ♪ ♪ Oh, Bobby Darin and Louis Armstrong ♪ ♪ They made a record ♪ ♪ Oh, but they did ♪ ♪ And now Ella, Ella and her Fellas ♪ ♪ We’re making a rec, what a rec ♪ ♪ Of Mack the Knife ♪ ♪ Just a jackknife ♪ ♪ So you’ve heard it ♪ ♪ Yes, we’ve swung it ♪ ♪ And we tried too ♪ ♪ Yes, we’ve sung it ♪ ♪ You won’t recognise it ♪ ♪ It’s a surprise hit ♪ ♪ This dude called Mack the Knife ♪ ♪ And so we leave you in Berlin town ♪ ♪ Yes, we’ve swung old Mack ♪ ♪ We’ve swung old Mack in town ♪ ♪ For the Darin fans ♪ ♪ And the Louis Armstrong fans too ♪ ♪ We told you to look out, look out, look out ♪ ♪ Old Mack is back, oh ♪

• Thanks, Lauren. You just hold that image for a moment. Thank you. What I love and, in fact, what makes this rendition of hers, I think, even greater than so many of the others except maybe Bobby Darin of “Mack the Knife” is that, of course, she forgets the words, but the making up of of words herself and yet keeping in tune and in rhythm absolutely perfectly, ironically, makes it even more of a great song and shows even a greater ability. So it’s scat and also making up the words. And the part where you just hear her with her voice, that’s exactly, this is, I guess in a way, a mature Ella Fitzgerald playing where the voice really is sounding like a horn instrument from the band, you know, and it all comes together. And there’s that hint of tiny shyness, I think, you know, that some of the other musicians spoke about with her. Very different kind of charisma to Louis Armstrong, you know, as a performer, I think. But so beautiful and sensitive and subtle and shy and yet confident, you know, to make up words and play all these names that she knows and we all know so well. Okay, if we can go onto the next one, please. And this is one of the great very early versions of Duke Ellington’s “It Don’t Mean a Thing if it Ain’t Got That Swing” by Ella Fitzgerald. If we can play it, please, Lauren.

• The Duke and Ella, so let’s have a wonderful welcome.

♪ Don’t mean a thing if it ain’t got that swing ♪ ♪ Doo ah, doo ah, doo ah, doo ah ♪ ♪ Doo ah, doo ah, doo ah, doo ah ♪ ♪ It don’t mean a thing ♪ ♪ All you got to do is sing ♪ ♪ Doo ah, doo ah, doo ah, doo ah ♪ ♪ Doo ah, doo ah, doo ah, doo ah ♪ ♪ Makes no difference if it’s sweet or hot ♪ ♪ Give that rhythm everything you’ve got ♪ ♪ Oh, it don’t mean a thing if you ain’t got that swing ♪ ♪ Doo ah, doo ah, doo ah, doo ah ♪ ♪ Doo ah, doo ah, doo ah, doo ah, ah ♪ ♪ It doesn’t mean a thing if it ain’t got that swing ♪ ♪ Doo ah ♪ ♪ Don’t need a thing ♪ ♪ All you got to do is sing ♪ ♪ Doo ah, doo ah, doo ah, doo ah ♪ ♪ Doo ah, doo ah, doo ah, doo ah ♪ ♪ Makes no difference if it’s sweet or hot ♪ ♪ Give that rhythm everything you got ♪ ♪ Don’t need a thing if it ain’t got that swing ♪ ♪ Doo ah, doo ah, doo ah, doo ah ♪ ♪ Doo ah, doo ah, doo ah, doo ah ♪ ♪ Don’t need a thing if th, th, then you’ve got that swing ♪ ♪ It don’t mean a thing ♪ ♪ All you got to do is sing ♪ ♪ Makes no difference if that rhythm’s sweet or hot ♪ ♪ Give it everything, everything you’ve got ♪ ♪ Don’t mean a thing if it ain’t got ♪ ♪ Don’t mean a thing ♪ ♪ Don’t mean a thing ♪

• Great. Thanks, Lauren. You can hold it. So what I love there is, obviously, it’s an earlier Ella singing, but we get the exact classic example of scat where, you know, the voice is trying to play itself. She’s trying to play her voice as if it’s a musical instrument, as if it’s one of the horns, not just making sounds. And it’s such, I know I’m saying this a few times, but it’s such an influential development that she and Louis Armstrong and some others bring into jazz. And it goes all the way through to so many other singers, you know, over from their time onwards. You know, not only is it jazz, but it’s also a kind of a freedom and a free spirit that starts to come into it. And we all pick up that free spirit, which we love in jazz so much. But these are the originators. And making something of themselves as solo artists, so they become musical instruments with their voice and, or Louis Armstrong holding his trumpet but the voice becomes a musical instrument as well. So the solo becomes almost more important than the collective big band, which is a huge development in jazz. The Great Depression happens, of course. And then, afterwards, for Louis Armstrong, the Cotton Club, which we all know of, it closes in 1936. And now, interestingly, he hired a guy called Joe Glaser, who was his new manager, who was a pretty tough guy, connected to the mob of Al Capone, ex-wheeler-dealer, all of that. And Glaser was the one to talk to Armstrong.

Change from the big band into a six-piece traditional jazz group. Another major development that Armstrong brings into jazz. Louis Armstrong was the first jazz musician to be on the cover of “Time Magazine.” It’s amazing, if you think about it. African-American, 1949, and a jazz musician on the cover of “Time Magazine” in 1949. A massive achievement historically. By the 1950s, he’s widely loved, he’s widely known in America, internationally, as such an iconic jazz and musical figure. And the young jazz musicians emerging after are so influenced, Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, Chet Baker, so many of the ones which, obviously, we know and love so well. Now, they had a sort of a criticism, not quite so public, but it was there where they started to see Louis and a little bit Ella as sort of semi-vaudevillian, half-musician but half-stage entertainer and were a little bit critical of that. But Louis Armstrong, true to his colours, never apologises. In fact, this is ridiculous, you know, and carries on, you know, over five, six decades making his music. But of course, the next generation must always criticise the previous one and, you know, push its own version and its own new approaches. Louis Armstrong generally remained fairly politically neutral. We’re not sure why. Whether it was his experience with the Jewish white family when he was young or whether he already was so popular with white and African-American groups or just in something inside himself, you know? But the music and the singing and the voice, here we are decades and decades later riveted by it. Okay, can we go onto the next slide, please? This is the two of them and the great Jewish composer, Irving Berlin, “Cheek to Cheek.”

♪ Heaven ♪ ♪ I’m in heaven ♪ ♪ And my heart beats so that I can hardly speak ♪ ♪ And I seem to find the happiness I seek ♪ ♪ When we’re out together ♪ ♪ Dancin’ cheek to cheek ♪ ♪ Yes, heaven ♪ ♪ I’m in heaven ♪ ♪ And the cares that hung around me through the week ♪ ♪ Seems to vanish like a gambler’s lucky streak ♪ ♪ When we’re out together dancin’ cheek to cheek ♪ ♪ Oh, I’d love to climb to a mountain ♪ ♪ Reach the highest peak ♪ ♪ But it doesn’t thrill me half as much ♪ ♪ As dancin’ cheek to cheek ♪ ♪ Oh, I’d love to go out fishin’ ♪ ♪ In a river or a creek ♪ ♪ But I don’t enjoy it half as much ♪ ♪ As dancin cheek to cheek ♪ ♪ Now, mama, dance with me ♪ ♪ I want my arms about you ♪ ♪ The charms about you will carry me through ♪ ♪ Yes, heaven ♪ ♪ I’m in heaven ♪ ♪ And my heart beats so that I can hardly speak ♪ ♪ And I seem to find the happiness I seek ♪ ♪ When we’re out together dancin’ cheek to cheek ♪ Take it, Ella. Swing it. ♪ Heaven, I’m in heaven ♪ ♪ And my heart beats so that I can hardly speak ♪ ♪ And I seem to find the happiness I seek ♪ ♪ When we’re out together dancin’ cheek to cheek ♪ ♪ Heaven, I’m in heaven ♪ ♪ And the cares that hung around me through the week ♪ ♪ Seem to vanish like a gambler’s lucky streak ♪ ♪ When we’re out together dancin’ cheek to cheek ♪ ♪ Oh, I love to climb a mountain ♪ ♪ And to reach the highest peak ♪ ♪ But it doesn’t thrill me half as much ♪ ♪ As dancin’ cheek to cheek ♪ ♪ Oh, I love to go out fishing ♪ ♪ In a river or a creek ♪ ♪ But I don’t enjoy it half as much ♪ ♪ As dancin’ cheek to cheek ♪ ♪ Come on and dance with me ♪ ♪ I want my arm about you ♪ ♪ The charm about you ♪ ♪ Will carry me through to heaven ♪ ♪ I’m in heaven ♪ ♪ And my heart beats so that I can hardly speak ♪ ♪ And I seem to find the happiness I seek ♪ ♪ When we’re out together dancin’ cheek to cheek ♪

• Yeah, if we can hold it there, please, Lauren? ♪ Yes, dance with me ♪ ♪ Yes, dance with me ♪

• But of course they go on to the last little riff together, singing there. I love it because I feel it’s such a beautiful, such respect, such love almost between the two of them. And you can feel, you know, how they’re feeding off each other all the time. And her voice, of course, is just a remarkable gift with so many nuances and ranges, intonation, pitch, just everything inside there. Couple of interesting thoughts is Louis Armstrong, he once said that the scat style was derived, and I’m quoting him, “from watching Jewish people rocking "in their synagogues.” And of course, he was speaking about what he called the Orthodox Jewish style of chanting during prayer. And of course, you know, he’s talking about davening and so on and that, you know, that he got the feeling of scat from that. Who says, and a song by Irving Berlin here, it’s “Cheek to Cheek,” talking about growing up with a young kid like that, seeing something like that in the synagogue, and at the same time other Jewish composers, and yet the audience is, you know, is certainly not the majority of either Jewish or African-American but, you know, white Christian American and globally. Make what you will of all the identity questions that, you know, can arise from that, but the music can make it happen and other art forms I believe. So interestingly, in 1964, Louis Armstrong was the only one to knock the Beatles off the top of the Billboard Hot 100 chart with “Hello, Dolly.” He was 63 years old. He was the oldest artist to ever have a number one song at the time. And who does he knock off? The Beatles.

These are just little moments just to remind us of the incredibly huge, global, and iconic position of these guys, of these people. So I want to go on to the next song, which is the two of them together as well. One of the great classics of all time and, of course, Jewish again, Gershwin.

♪ Things have come to a pretty pass ♪ ♪ Our romance is growing flat ♪ ♪ For you like this and the other ♪ ♪ While I go for this and that ♪ ♪ Goodness knows what the end will be ♪ ♪ Oh, I don’t know where I’m at ♪ ♪ It looks as if we two will never be one ♪ ♪ Something must be done ♪ ♪ You say either, I say either ♪ ♪ You say neither, and I say neither ♪ ♪ Either, either and neither, neither ♪ ♪ Let’s call the whole thing off ♪ ♪ Yes, you like potato and I like potato ♪ ♪ You like tomato, I like tomato ♪ ♪ Potato, potato, tomato, tomato ♪ ♪ Let’s call the whole thing off ♪ ♪ But oh, if we call the whole thing off ♪ ♪ Then, we must part ♪ ♪ And oh, if we ever part ♪ ♪ Then, that might break my heart ♪ ♪ So if you like pyjamas, I like pyjamas ♪ ♪ I’ll wear pyjamas, give up pyjamas ♪ ♪ For we know we need each other ♪ ♪ So we better call the calling off, off ♪ ♪ Oh, let’s call the whole thing off, yes ♪ ♪ You say laughter and I say larfter ♪ ♪ You say after, and I say arfter ♪ ♪ Laughter, larfter, after, arfter ♪ ♪ Let’s call the whole thing off ♪ ♪ You like vanilla and I like vanella ♪ ♪ You sarsaparilla and I sarsaparella ♪ ♪ Vanilla, vanella oh, chocolate, strawberry ♪ ♪ Let’s call the whole thing off ♪ ♪ But oh, if we call the whole thing off ♪ ♪ Then, we must part ♪ ♪ And oh, if we ever part ♪ ♪ Then, that might break my heart ♪ ♪ So if you go for oysters and I go for ersters ♪ ♪ I’ll order oysters and cancel the ersters ♪ ♪ For we know, we need each other ♪ ♪ So we better call the calling off, off ♪ ♪ Let’s call the whole thing off ♪ ♪ Yes, you say either ♪ ♪ And you say either ♪ ♪ You say neither ♪ ♪ And you say neither ♪ ♪ Either ♪ ♪ Either ♪ ♪ Ah, neither ♪ ♪ Ah, neither ♪ ♪ Let’s call the whole thing off ♪ ♪ Oh, yes, you like potato ♪ ♪ And you like potato ♪ ♪ You like tomato ♪ ♪ And you like tomato ♪ ♪ Potato ♪ ♪ Potato ♪ ♪ Tomato ♪ ♪ Tomato ♪ ♪ Let’s call the whole thing off ♪ ♪ But oh, if we call the whole thing off ♪ ♪ Then, we must part ♪ ♪ And oh, if we ever part ♪ ♪ Then, that might break my heart ♪ ♪ Oh, so if you like pyjamas ♪ ♪ Like pyjamas ♪ ♪ I like pyjamas ♪ ♪ You got pyjamas ♪ ♪ For we know, we need each other ♪ ♪ So we better call the calling off, off ♪ ♪ Let’s call the whole thing off ♪ ♪ Yeah ♪ ♪ Let’s call the whole thing off ♪ ♪ Yeah ♪

• Thanks, Lauren. If you can just hold that image there for a moment. Please, thank you. So of course, we all know this song. Globally, everybody knows it, love it so much. Again, from Gershwin. And here, I think they’ve really matured into, there’s such a connection between the two of them with a little bit of scat happening. But mostly, it’s the playing off of emotion in the voice, in the singing between the two of them. And this massive contribution they’re giving to us. Two solo performers coming together, having already introduced solo performance, especially through Louis Armstrong or perhaps because he’s got the instrument as well. But they are taking it so much further in this fantastic little duet. But you know, irrepressible character. And in her own way, Ella absolutely irrepressible. The personalities, the public figure is to become so iconic, and yet for me remains so, I know it’s an unliked word these days, but so authentic, which I really believe. They are virtuosos. He plays the trumpet and he sings. There’s a unique tone, a talent. There’s also, in the improvisation, there’s also a sense of the melodic. And I feel that with this Gershwin song, you know, potato, potato. There’s a sense of the melodic inside the jazz. To finally ended up in a way, Bing Crosby once said, “Louis Armstrong is the beginning "and end of American music.” And interestingly, the critic, the more literary critic, I’m sure many know Harold Bloom, he wrote, “There are two great American contributions "to the world’s art, "Walt Whitman, Louis Armstrong, and jazz and Ella.” Okay, so we’re going to leave it there and hold it and hope we have enjoyed what’s I suppose music hour with Ella and Louis, and we can take questions, thank you.

Q&A and Comments:

Q: Hi, Ellen. “Is Judy on leave?”

A: No, it’s that because, you know, the whole of lockdown has expanded that it’s been wonderful that new people have come on board to help the team overall. And today, Jess has been working with Lauren and others and so on, which have been happening.

Okay, “My favourite Ella song is ‘Miss Otis Regrets.’” Yep, wonderful song.

It’s Billy. “My zoom has just updated too.” I’m sorry that happened, you know, but Zoom just comes and they just do it without you knowing, and then, you know, it cuts for a minute or two. Mavis, thank you.

Francine, “I believe the Karnofsky family "was very supportive.” Yeah, of Louis Armstrong. Not only from a young age, seven, eight into his, you know, his early youth. Not only did he work for them a little bit, but he also, they helped feed him, give him clothing, and perhaps even as profound nurtured him, as he said, with a way of living. How to be determined and how to fight the good fight and, you know, live what your vision in life. And he talks about it quite a bit in his memoir.

Cheryl, “Zoom upgrades, most inconvenient.” I know, exactly, no warning. Thanks, Cheryl.

Q: Agnes, “Will you please illustrate the difference "between scat and other kinds?”

A: Yeah, I think what I said, Agnes, was scat is when you try to make the voice more influenced by musical instrument. Could be a trumpet or another horn instrument, whichever. Whereas improvisational is using the voice more as sound or words or you know, extension of words. So you’re improvising more with that approach to the voice as opposed to musical instrument being your main influence in improvisational vocal usage. Gloria, thank you.

Janet, “The song moves me to tears, "was a favourite of my dear late husband.” Oh, playing it as the opener. I’m so sorry to hear about your late husband and thank you for sharing that, Janet.

Claire, “I remember Mel Torme scatting.” Yes, and Bing Crosby. So many of the others took it from these people, you know, especially Louis Armstrong, but also from Ella, took it from them and influenced in just so many forms of music genres and singing not only jazz.

Rochelle, “Fortunate to have seen Louis Armstrong. "K-star live on stage in the Flamingo in Las Vegas.” Oh, fantastic.

William, “Not intended but a wonderful metaphor "for black life offline. "And by the way pronounced his name not as Louis "but Louis, not Y.” Thank you very much for noticing my South African accent, Louis. Okay, William, thank you.

Sonny, “Every time a Crystal cruise ship leaves a port, "they play ‘What a Wonderful World,’ everyone smiles.” You can’t help it. I mean, on the one hand, is it just nostalgic, silly nostalgic memory? Or on the other hand, is there something so iconic and deep and profound? And you know, of course it’s nostalgic and a little bit of sweet memory. But there’s also something, you know, that I truly believe goes beyond it, which I think great art achieves. Even when we quote Shakespeare and, you know, we play with it, “To be or not to be,” or whatever we play and we make irony and fun and satire, which is fantastic and we must do, but it still remains something powerful underneath. Mona, thank you kindly.

Myra, “Finest in the world.” Yes, they are.

“No other like Louis.” Yep. I’m going to say Louis from now on.

Q: Barry, “Did the family who helped Louis buy a piano?”

A: I am not sure. I’ll have to check that. Great question, Barry. Thank you. Bob, thanks, very much appreciate it. Stan, thank you, appreciate. William, thank you.

Q: “Didn’t Louis Armstrong invent scat?”

A: Well, he originated it to reach such a wide audience. So he’s credited often as inventing scat singing, but it was also in the air at the times as well. But he’s the one who in a way crystallised it and made it into, I suppose, the genre it is, and he’s the one who made it so influential in jazz and other kinds of singing and music, for sure.

Anne, “For me, Ella’s great talent was "rhythm and improv,” yep. “So the ballads are not my favourites. "It’s weird, she’s much remembered for ‘A-Tisket, A-Tasket.’

"No jazz rhythm there.” Yeah, it’s a fascinating point, Anne. Thank you.

Cheryl, “In ‘69 while recovering "from heart and kidney problems, Beth Israel from New York, "Louis Armstrong wrote,” yes, “Louis Armstrong and the Jewish Family 1907.” That was the memoir that I mentioned about the Karnofsky Family, exactly. And let’s never forget, he wore a Star of David all his life until the day he died. So you know, that says everything, I think, in relation to the Karnofsky Family and so much of the extension of the Jewish experience that he gained from that. You know, in terms of understanding discrimination, in terms of what for him he called rocking in, you know, we call davening in the synagogue but he calls rocking, which led him to scat as he wrote in the memoir.

Rita, “Ella’s singing.” Thank you.

Susan, “No one cares that the way she can’t remember "the lyrics in 'Mack the Knife.’” Exactly, and I think that actually makes it one of her greatest songs ever, that she forgets the lyrics but is able to carry with her own words anything that comes in, which kind of makes sense. Not in terms of the original “Mack the Knife” song but in terms of, you know, the jazz feeling.

Hannah, “Two of the greatest.” Thank you, kindly.

Phyllis, “Never gets old.” Nope. Val, thank you, appreciate it.

Eva, “Ella singing ‘Mack’ sends shiver "down my spine every time.” Yep, thank you. And the way she says it in that shy way that some of the musicians said, you know, “You’ve probably never heard a girl singing it, "so I’m going to.” You know, she doesn’t sort of boom it out or it’s never arrogant. It’s a shy, gentle voice. And then, you know, comes her actual singing voice.

Q: Golda, “Did Louis Armstrong keep in touch?”

A: I think he did to a degree, but I need to, it’s a great question. I need to do more research and find out more exactly, you know, how much connection it was. I think there was.

Q: Elaine, “Did the Karnofsky Family give him "the nickname Satchmo?”

A: No, I think that came later from other band musicians who called him Satchmo linked to playful names with instruments.

Q: Linda and Peter, “What was the name of the memoir?”

A: I think it was mentioned earlier. But if you have a look at Louis Armstrong and the Karnofsky Family, you’ll find that. And if you Google it, you’ll find the name of the memoir there.

Francine, if you can’t, please email me through lockdown, I can help, “What I find remarkable about these two singers "and others of the time, they could hold an audience just "by the microphone and no other.” Yes, today, you need lights and sound and a coterie of background singers booming, et cetera, absolutely. So you know, they could hold it just with their own presence, I guess what we call presence today and charisma. And being, for me, again, the word so authentic in inhabiting as we talk about in acting in theatre, inhabiting moment for moment, you know, believably the song and what they’re doing and singing and loving it. All right, Janet, thank you very kindly for your comments.

Rita, “Marilyn Monroe and Ella, "Ella saying, ‘I owe Marilyn Monroe a real debt. ”'It’s because of her that I played in the Mocambo,’“ a very popular nightclub in the ‘50s. "She personally called the owner and told him, et cetera, "she told him it was true.” Yep, and the press would go well, the owner said yes. Exactly, and that’s the subject of the 2008 play by the fascinating African-American playwright who lives in Britain, Bonnie Greer, about the two.

“Marilyn and Ella,” it’s called. And exactly, you know, the two of them that it’s an unknown fact about Marilyn Monroe or Ella Fitzgerald. But I think important to know, you know, the ability of these artists to transcend all absolute nonsensical and, to me, ridiculous prejudices and immoral.

Ron, hope you’re well, “Ella recorded a poignant version "of Irving Berlin’s 'Russian lullaby,’” yes. “Depicting autobiographic hopes "and the dreams of Eastern European mother for a child, "the land of the free.” Absolutely. You know, what I love is that this is Irving Berlin, it’s Gershwin, and so many and others. You know, it’s the Jewish writers that they are connecting with and singing, you know? And let’s remember, this is the ‘20s, '30s, '40s, maybe into the '50s but, you know, it’s so early on that this is happening.

Gloria, “Please don’t forget Mel Torme in scat.” No, thank you for reminding me, Gloria.

Wolf, “South African apartheid would not give him a visa,” yep, “to sing in South Africa when he sang in Rhodesia.” Yeah, exactly, they didn’t, you know, to their disgusting legacy. And how did he handle? Well, because of that background, I think, I imagine because of the Jewish background, and also because his songs were so loved by both African-American and white audiences in America anyway and globally, he seemed to almost rise above it. You know, I think Elvis from a totally different perspective, you know, is also making a fusion and able to. So I think, you know, as I mentioned when I spoke about Elvis, but here, I mean, he had racism, there’s no question, and lots of all different kinds of racism. He was even imprisoned briefly as a kid and other things, Louis Armstrong. But I think it’s the focus on the music. And I think the focus on the art and the music really can help, you know, how they live.

Q: Joe, “Was Armstrong accused by other black musicians?”

A: Yeah, he was, of pandering to the white man’s image. He was, Joe, and good point. As some of them said, he’s half-vaudevillian, he’s half-entertainer, he’s half-musician, you know, and criticised him for not speaking out more and, you know, about racism. You know, in the end, we can speculate, but there’s no hard and fast evidence of what they actually said or thought about other than wanting the music to speak to all races, all nationalities, religions, which I think is often a lost quality these days.

Rod, the nickname Satchmo, I’m going to check that again for you 'cause it’s, to get it exactly right, Rob. Thank you for raising it.

Q: Yolandi, “Did Louis have damaged vocal chords?”

A: No, not that I know of. I don’t think this came from any damage. Just, you know, his gift of a voice.

Francine, thank you.

“David, I bought the Ella and Louis LP in the '50s "in South Africa. "I was able to buy it, it mystifies me.” Well, absolutely. I mean, let’s remember the apartheid government banned the book “Black Beauty,” you know, just for the title, not even knowing what it was vaguely about, just the title. You know, “How could black people be beautiful?” I mean, the insanity of that.

Marilyn, thank you. I appreciate your kind comments.

Jonathan, “What I hope would be mentioned by the end, "the sociological phenomenon by which whites in the USA "and South Africa were prepared to idolise black performers, "but apply the same racial restrictions "to blacks are seeing contradiction,” yep.

“Black performers on tour could not eat "or stay in the same hotels with white members.

"Nat King Cole suffered from it.” Yes and many, many others. Exactly, and this whole question of the Uncle Tom, you know, which I would’ve gone into with another lecture, this question of, “Are they Uncle Tom?” or are they just, you know, stooges for whites, et cetera, which is I didn’t want to do it today because I would have to gloss over it so briefly, and it would become a naive polemic. I’d rather focus on the music and what the music is doing. That I think is a very important point you’re making, but I think it’s for another lecture perhaps on the racism experience in these times and the nuanced details of this terrible racism.

Francine, “What I best define from their voices "and songs is their respect for the words "that were written.” Yeah, you know, and can you imagine these writers are knowing. Irving Berlin, you know, from an immigrant Jewish background. Gershwin and others, they’re knowing that their songs are going to be made popular. This is, you know, '20s, '30s, '40s, made popular by, you know, these African-American singers. It requires a leap in a way, which we take for granted now, you know, if we go back a hundred years.

Barbara, “My mother grew up in Long Island, "frequented all the clubs in Manhattan. "Years later, she took me to a small concert in Stony Brook "where I met Armstrong. "I still have his autograph.” Oh, fantastic. Thanks for sharing, Barbara.

Ron, “Armstrong’s '50s Columbia musicals "as a tribute is a masterpiece.” Fantastic, thank you. Rose, thank you much. Thank you, Barbara, your kind comments.

Gene, “Possible to increase the volume?” Ah, okay. I think we’ll take a note of that, Gene. Thank you for alerting us to that.

Judy, thank you, total jazz junkie. Yeah, I’m a jazz, a rock, a folk, and a fair amount of classical junkie as well.

Richard, “I’ve been told "the reason Jewish composers played such a large part "in the origins of jazz took musical tradition "from the popular Polish musical theatre tradition "in the earlier 20th century.” Yes, and that’s a fascinating area to explore again in another lecture. You know, the Jewish writers and composers’ own influence. You know, and they bridging the gap between that and, you know, immigrants in the land of the free. For them, the land of the free at the time.

Ed, “You can never do justice to these greats,” yep. Rita, thank you. And Richard, thank you.

“Possibly the greatest scat song’s ‘How High The Moon’ "and ‘Blue Skies.’” Yeah, masterpieces. Phyllis, “How High The Moon,” yep. Cynthia, thank you kindly.

Q: Judy, “Who brought Ella and Louis together?”

A: Not sure. Great question. There’s a lot of different thought and discussion. Did they meet through other musicians? ‘Cause they all sort of knew each other as African-American musicians of the time. They sort of knew each other, met each other, heard of each other, that sort of thing. I don’t think it was just a formal producer as far as they brought it together. Jonathan, thank you kindly.

Q: Barbara, that’s a great question, “When did Louis start using his handkerchief?”

A: You know, stage lights are very, very hot and very easy to sweat and, you know, and he’s dressed often in a suit. You know, easy to sweat would be my theatrically pragmatic suggestion.

Naomi, “I understand they bought in the first trumpet "from a ragman.” Yes, they did. 895, thank you again. Myself, thank you for your comment. Sharka, thank you so much. Thank you kindly.

Ella Fitzgerald lived, oh, you saw her live in '83 in Houston. Okay, that’s fantastic.

Judy, “What do you,” well, their own personal lives is, again, another whole lecture, and we wouldn’t be able to get any of the songs played. You know, Ella Fitzgerald, Louis Armstrong, Billie Holiday, all of them. I mean, you know, Miles Davis, they, extraordinary rough and tough, hard lives that they really came from. Susan, thank you, appreciate.

“Ella’s range is remarkable.” Agree completely. Moira, thank you kindly.

Ron, Chick Webb, yes, Chick Webb definitely deserves a mention as you say. And Ella’s very early mentor as well as Duke Ellington. Absolutely. Thanks for that point, Ron.

Bob, “If you update your Zoom each week, "it saves time when you use it.” Okay, well, thank you. I appreciate that, Bob, didn’t know.

Carol Ann, “We saw Ella in '64.” Fantastic.

Julia, “Further to how he preferred his name pronounced.” He says it’s Louis. It’s Louis, Dolly. Thanks for that reminder, Julia. Appreciate it.

Paula, “The family bought him a secondhand trumpet "and taught him Yiddish.” Okay, great. Thank you for that, Paula. Gloria, yep.

Diana, his trumpet playing, woo, that’s another whole conversation just to get into.

• All right, David. I think we could obviously keep talking for another eight hours but, but we’re 20 minutes past and I think we better-

• Okay.

• Well, we better call it.

• All right, Lauren and Jess, thank you so much again for your help today and during the week, and hope everybody has a great rest of the weekend. Take care.