Trudy Gold
The Empress Maria Theresa, Joseph II and the Jews

Trudy Gold - The Empress Maria Theresa, Joseph II, and the Jews

- [Wendy] Welcome, everybody. Lovely to have everybody with us, and I hope you, I wish you a warmish day. Right?

• Thanks. Thanks Wendy, and good evening, everyone. Yesterday, of course, William looked at Maria Theresa and her son Joseph II and gave you a really good analysis of the period. Now, what I’ve got to do, and this happens so often in Jewish history, I’ve got to take the Jews and slot them into the history of the Hapsburg Empire. Now, it’s important to remember in 1752 there were only 450 Jews living in Vienna. By 1777, the number had only risen to 520. So important to remember when we talk about the Jews of Vienna, we’re talking about a very, very small population. But what you’re going to see is a huge number now in the Hapsburg Empire. And can I show the first map, please, Judi? Right. What happens now, this will of course resonate with so many of you whose families come from Eastern Europe, and you will know that one of the great migrations of the Jews was eastward to the independent kingdom of Poland. Now, beginning in the 1300s, right up until the 1600s, Poland really was the heartland of the Ashkenazi world, and the population swelled, they lived almost as a kingdom within a kingdom. And of course, just to reiterate, Poland at that period incorporated what is now Lithuania and the Ukraine. But after the Thirty Years’ War. which Williams already talked about, 1618 to 1648, the Kingdom of Poland was weakened. And at the end of the Thirty Years’ War, in the Ukraine, there was a Cossacks uprising. The Cossacks went on the rampage against their Polish masters. Much of the land had been parcelled up for the aristocracy by the Jews. There were the most horrific murders. It’s a terrible time in Jewish history.

That’s the Jewish angle. But from the point of view of the state, it completely weakened the Polish state just as neighbouring countries were becoming very, very important. And also, particularly in the West, Prussia and the Hapsburg Empire were beginning to modernise. So what happens, beginning in 1772, and I want you to look at these maps very, very carefully. Russia, Prussia and the Hapsburg Empire are going to take parts of Poland, then move on to the next partition in 1795. And what you’ll see is more and more of the area. So in 1795, you see, 1793, 1795, you will see that the province of Galicia and you see the important town of Krakow now comes under Polish, leaves Polish rule and comes under Hapsburg rule. After 1815, Poland is going to be wiped off the map as a sovereign state and the Jews of Eastern Europe are going to be divided up. The bulk are going to be under the Czarist Empire, but a sizable population over 200,000 are going to be in Austria and about another 100,000 in Prussia. And that means they are going to be completely at the- The point about Jewish history, how is the outside world reacting to them? So from then on, the Jews in Krakow, the Jews in Galicia are going to be under the control of the Hapsburgs, the Jews in Prussia under the control of obviously the Prussians, and the Jews in Russia under the control of the Russians. So consequently, the way they live is going to become very interesting.

And basically under the autocratic czars, it’s a throe frozen mass. In Prussia, the enlightenment is really going to hit them and to a certain extent in Austria. So I think it’s very important that we occasionally look at these maps so that you can see how really this large Jewish population, the largest Jewish population in the world, is at the mercy of various countries, and their destinies are determined by the way those countries are ruled. So can we have another map, please? Yeah. And this of course is the Hapsburg Empire, and it’s very interesting. I’m going to try and see if I can make mine bigger. My eyes aren’t that good. And of course you can see the size of the Hapsburg Empire, and this is going to be the Hapsburg Empire in 1914. And you can see by looking at the map very carefully, and after 1867, it is actually the joint Austro-Hungarian crown. But you could just see the extent of that empire, which as William has explained so magnificently, is held together by a family. So the largest population from the Jewish point of view, if you go to the north of the map, you will see Galicia, also there’s a sizable Jewish population in Silesia, Moravia, and in Eastern Hungary in particular. Now, something interesting, when I talk about Vienna, I’m also going to be talking, and of course in this course we’ll be talking about other parts of the Hapsburg empire, the further east you go, the more the traditional way of Jewish life continues. But of course what’s going to happen in Vienna is going to have an extraordinary effect on the Jews, particularly in the west of the empire and in the big cities. But please don’t follow that on to Hungary, Eastern Hungary, much of Galicia, which was 50% Hasidic by this time, it did all it could to keep away from modernity because it’s, as I told you this device a few weeks ago, the crisis of modernity, danger, opportunity.

On one level, modernity, and the gradual enactments that various czars, princes are going to enact, on one level, it’s going to offer you Europe and what an incredible success story that’s going to be. But what about the other side of it? What was the danger? And I’d rather not use the hindsight of history for Jews at the time, particularly the religious, the danger was you’ll lose your Jewishness, your Judaism. And of course the other point from the point of view of the rabbanim, the further east you go, it’s that that did not holds court in your village. The outside world is something far away and hostile, but as modernity encroaches, it’s really going to make a huge difference to the life of the Jews. So I think it’s a very interesting device, the crisis of modernity. So can we go back? And I’ll be showing you these maps again because I think it’s very useful for us to be able to visualise just how Europe was and I suppose it’s worth you thinking about. Can we go back to that other map first, Judi? Thank you. It’s worth you thinking about how many different nationalities are now in the Hapsburg Empire. And as we move into the 19th century, and it’s something we’re going to spend a lot of time on, it’s the nationalities within the 19th century. One of the problems of any empire, William talked about the concept of the enlightened despot. They need to enlighten in order to create an educated middle class and able to run an economically viable state. But the minute you educate, you have problems. And one of the issues with all those groups within the empire, they have once been independent countries. Why should they be ruled by one family? And of course, it’s all going to explode.

And if you go to, if you go down to Serbia, it’s going to be a Serbian anarchist who is going to kill the heir to the last of the Habsburg emperors, Franz Joseph. And the phrase is the bullet that killed millions of men. That was the tinderbox that set off the first World War, Serbia. And Wendy, if you’re listening, of course, you met some of these heads of state, and I think we’re going to arrange for some of them to come in and talk to you about their world now. But that’s later on. So can we come to the picture of Maria Theresa, please, Judi? Yeah, there she is. Maria Theresa, she was born in 1770. She died in 1780. And then her son is going to rule for 10 years. Her titles, I know William’s told you, but I think it’s worth going over it again. Sovereign of Austria, Hungary, Croatia, Bohemia, Transylvania, Mantua, Milan, Lombardi, Galicia, Austria, Netherlands, and Parma. And of course, by her marriage to the Duke of Lorraine, she was Duchess of Lorraine and the Grand Duchess of Tuscany. And of course it was her husband who was the holy Roman emperor. So, and she’s also around the same time of that other great woman, Catherine. When I say great women, how great was Catherine? Catherine the Great, how great was Maria Theresa? Now, William talked a lot about her reforms, but as far as the Jews were concerned, it’s not going to be the case. Now, let me give you the background to her in terms of religiosity. She was a very, very zealous Catholic. She was a paternalistic, and there’s no doubt that she did try and improve the lot of the poor. She introduced a lot of reforms. She introduced education, far more schools for the poor.

So on one level, she is enlightened, but giving you the numbers of Jews in Vienna, her archbishop, the Archbishop of Vienna, Migazzi, actually complained to her about the growing social contact between Jews and Christians. Now, this is the man whose see was actually St. Stephen’s Cathedral where he’s buried. He was absolutely terrified of the enlightenment. And when Maria Theresa died, in his memorial, he lists actually the primary causes of what he sees as the evils of the modern world. He brings out atheistic literature, pernicious influence of some professors, the lack of censorship of contemporary literature, the contempt for the clergy, bad example being set by the nobility, and irreligious people being allowed to conduct the affairs of the state. This is really the clash. On one level, you have enlightened despots, very strong Catholics in the Hapsburg case, but economically, the state has to be viable. On the other level, you have the Catholic church fighting a rear guard action. And these forces are going to be at play all the way through the history of Austria. And I would suggest to you right up into the second World War, it’s there. Which force will prevail? And I remember when I travelled, I did a very long tour, I went, I did what I call the arc of the South, I went to Munich to Linz, Vienna. One of the highlights of my life, I was invited to a lecture on anti-Semitism in Linz, which of course was Hitler’s favourite city. And I must admit that I felt rather, I felt extraordinary, to actually be able to lecture there on anti-Semitism. But what was fascinating is on a Sunday, everybody went to church. It’s a very conservative part of the world, and I think to this day, it’s still conservative. Anyway, so Maria Theresa had a real dislike of Jews. It is anti-Semitism.

In fact, we won’t call it this because it’s not yet modern and racial. Let’s call it anti-Judaism. Is it like any other form of hatred? All forms of hatred of a group are of course abhorrent. But I think the tragedy of the Jew, it is tied up. And I’ve said this to you many times, it’s tied up with a theological problem. You know, she loathed Jews so much, but she needed her bankers. And don’t forget, we’ve discussed these characters, Diego d'Aguilar, Wolf Wertheimer, the son of course of Samson Wertheimer. She would have audiences with them, but she would see them behind the screen. She would not have any physical contact with them. And of course, Joseph von Sonnenfels, who of course had converted, but he was her major advisor and that of her son on economic affairs. So to protect her economic interests, she was prepared to use Jews. But what really is the problem for her, with the annexation of Galicia and Bukovina, it makes the Hapsburg Empire even more so after Galicia, the centre, the largest centre of Jewish population in Europe, outside of the Czarist Empire. So we have an issue. Also, she loathed her Protestants, she loathed her free thinkers. She didn’t want anybody who was against the Catholic church. But as far as the Jews are concerned, of course there was a large Jewish presence in Budapest. There was a large Jewish presence in Prague. And on December the 18th, 1744, she signed an edict ordering the expulsion of Jews from Prague and they had to depart within a couple of months and all Jews in that region had to depart from Bohemia and Moravia by 1745. And she wrote of them. “I know of no greater plague than this race, which on account of its deceit, usury and avarice is driving my subjects into beggary.” And also she was worried and there were rumours that during the war over the city’s occupation, Prussia, she was worried that the Jews had sided with the Prussians against her.

And after the reconquest of the city by the Austrians, you see the Jews are always in the middle of all these various crises. The Austrians were fighting the Prussians at that time. Once the battle is over, let’s blame the perfect scapegoat, the Christ killer, the Jew. And after the riots, 20 Jews were murdered, businesses and homes were destroyed. So that’s very much the atmosphere. And but this is a new development because being confronted with the edict of expulsion, the leaders of Prague Jewry actually called on the community. What they did was they called on Jews from many of the other cities to begin a campaign of fasting and prayer. They sent an appeal to Jews for help. Those in Vienna, who remember, are there because they are useful to the sovereign, to Amsterdam, which has become a great haven, to London, to Venice, to Frankfurt, basically begging them to try and do something. And this is interesting because for the first time, European Jews, I’m talking now in the main about court Jews or wealthy Jews who were useful to the state, they began to use their influence. For example, there was a Sephardi banker called Moses Hart, and he petitioned George II of England. And in fact, the British government sent representations to Maria Theresa to try and stop it. And the Senator of Venice, the pragmatic Venetians, and the whole notion of trade. The Senate of Venice sent representations, as did the King of Denmark, who was a very enlightened individual, as did representatives of the Ottoman Empire. So fascinating.

The empress is confronted by requests from other monarchs and also putting her in a position where she’s got to do something about it. Ironically, by the time the message is received, she received them, she was in childbirth with one of her other, you know, remember she had nine children living, she was constantly pregnant. And as she was in the final stages, she didn’t receive the deputation in time so what happened was the Jews were expelled from Prague. However, what could be averted was the expulsion from Bohemia and Moravia. And this is fascinating because at the time, she was actually planning that her husband become holy Roman emperor, because of course a woman couldn’t be. It was always the title of the Hapsburgs. So her husband, the Duke of Lorraine, she wants him to be holy Roman emperor. But as William mentioned yesterday, there are seven electors to the Holy Roman empire. And one of them is the elector of Hanover, who is related to the British Royal family. Don’t forget George I, the Hanoverian king, he took the throne as elector of Hanover. So as a response to requests from the British, she doesn’t want to upset the electors. So consequently, she cuts back on the expulsion. And four years later, the Jews were readmitted to Prague, provided they pay what is called the toleration of tax. Now, this is a quote from the great historian, Shlomo Aviner. “The position of Jews in European society was changing.

Even when vulnerable and under threat and in expulsion from one city, Jews could still respond by mobilising an international network of connections based on deeply felt solidarity.” Now, this is fascinating because what Aviner is saying is there’s almost a linkage between Jews of power, well, no, Jews of influence. Power to me has always been a state and an army. We can argue about that another time. But Jews of influence are now called upon by a community under threat, and they are prepared to use their influence. You know, ironically, this later on is going to feed into that terrible myth of Jewish world power. I would always say that in this period, individual Jews did have influence, but I don’t want to go beyond that. And maybe that’s something we can debate. Also, back in Vienna, we have a conservative minister of state. He says, “I’m appalled that young Jews could be seen in public, in the company of young Christians, even some wear swords at their sides. And I am horrified that Jewish women dress in a manner little different from that of ladies of rank walking in the company of Christian men and women.” And he also, and remember, he’s talking about that very small number of Jews who are there because they’re useful to the state. I’m talking about the bankers, I’m talking about the merchants who are beginning to work in infrastructure. You know, by the time the Vienna Stock Exchange was created in the middle of the 19th century, 79% of the members of the stock exchange are going to be Jews. You see, the more backward an empire is economically, the more the Jew is going to come to the prominence. And tragically, liberalism is going to go under the carpet, and it’s going to be a terrible problem.

But I’m jumping forward. So important to remember though, that there is a certain amount of coexistence. We know that the sons and the daughters of the rich are now mixing with the lower ranks of the Austrian aristocracy, so there is a bit of mixing. Can we now please go on to her son, Joseph II, who was a very, very different kind of character. He came to the throne in 1780. So he is the one who goes forward on his mother. He didn’t share his mother’s views on Jews. And he wasn’t prepared to wait for a change in attitudes towards Jews and actually towards Christians because his Patent of Tolerance of October, 1781, he extends freedom of religion to non-Catholic Christians. Who are we talking about? We’re looking, think, the empire is huge. He’s talking about Lutherans, he’s talking about Calvinists, he’s talking about Eastern Orthodoxy. They’re not allowed to build churches, but they are allowed to hold private religious services. They’re still heavily regulated and it’s going to be another hundred years before in Vienna they’re allowed to erect houses of prayer. And also it regulates mixed marriages. Now, what do I mean by mixed marriage? I mean a marriage between, let’s say a Catholic and an Eastern Orthodox. He transfers marriages from canon law to civil law. It’s fascinating who has power in the land. You know, Israel is a theocracy because the rabbinate, it’s actually the religious powers that marry, be they Christian, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim.

What Joseph does, he allows the state to take over marriages. But if the father was a Catholic or the children have to be raised as Catholic, if the mother was a Catholic, only the daughters were allowed, only the daughters could be raised as Catholic, so he wants to keep it in. But it follows with an edict of toleration, 1782. Initially it is going to come into place in lower Austria. This is an edict of toleration towards the Jews. And the preamble of the state of the edict is important. “This policy paper aims at making the Jewish population useful to the state.” Okay. It’s very much part of his plan to modernise and centralise his empire. And here he has the support of the more moderate of his advisors. So the edict to toleration, with any luck, you can probably find it online, but, so I’m only going to go through the most important clause is. “The wearing of the Jew badge is abolished. The poll tax levied on them as a group is abolished. Jews are encouraged to engage in agriculture and to learn trades. They are permitted to attend schools and universities.” Do you see how forward-thinking this is? Is it though the crisis of modernity? “They are allowed and encouraged to establish factories, large-scale businesses, and compete on equal terms in commerce.” Look, he’s got a vast empire. And the further east you go, the more it is a rural population, a peasant population. He needs to create that articulate middle class that’s going to be able to centralise affairs for him. Now, the Jews were instructed to establish German language schools for their children or to send them to state schools. Jews were now to be inducted into the army, and they could, in the lower ranks, they could progress. He abolishes Jewish judicial autonomy. You know, the beit din.

For centuries in Poland where the, basically the kings of Poland had done a deal with the Jews, oil the wheels of our economy, pay a tax as a group and in return will allow you to live almost as a kingdom within a kingdom. He is abolishing this, and this is important. You’re not allowed to use Hebrew and Yiddish for public and commercial purposes, and you have to adopt German-sounding names. It’s fascinating. Those of you who are interested in your lineage, back in Galicia, you would’ve been Avram, Ben, David or whatever. Now, you’ve got to adopt a proper sounding surname. And he also, there was many clauses about reforming Jewish social mores to reform economic practises and to end, quote unquote, “The national distinctiveness of the Jews.” Practically every reformer talks about the low moral standard of the Jews, which is such a calumny actually. But this downgraded view, which comes from the enlightenment from Voltaire, et cetera, the Jews were downgraded people actually, on the contrary. And later on, I’m going to bring some of Disraeli’s statements into this because it’s fascinating. Now, the Jewish communal organisations in places like Bohemian and Moravia, about 70,000 Jews by the 1780s, they’re gradually, there are different decrees, this is for Austria and lower Austria, different decrees for 1785, 1788, he basically wants to make the Jews into useful subjects of the empire. So a man called Naftali Herz Homberg. Can we see his picture please, Judi? Yeah. He was appointed a superintendent of the German language schools and censor of Jewish books. So who was Naftali Herz Homberg? He’s born in Prague. He goes to the Yeshiva in Prague and the great Pressburg Yeshiva. From the age of 18 though he begins to study German. He studies German literature. He’s another brilliant mind. He studied maths, new educational theories.

This is the beginnings of real education. He visited Berlin and he becomes tutor to Joseph Mendelssohn who of course is one of the sons of Moses Mendelssohn. And he becomes part of Moses Mendelssohn’s circle. And of course in Berlin, exactly the same sort of thing is happening, except you have the figure of Moses Mendelssohn thinking that you can walk both worlds, be a Jew at home and a man in society. In 1782, he begins to teach in Jewish schools in the Italian provinces of the Hapsburg Empire and began to introduce modernise, remember he studied education, he wants to modernise the curriculum of the traditional Jewish school. You know, it’s fascinating, back in the 12th century, there’s a brilliant Jewish code of education and this applied to England and it actually said, no teacher can teach more than 10 students at any one time. It’s only in the rarefied area of the holy land that you can teach 25. And now what he’s doing here is introducing the modern pedagogical method that he’s learning at the university, at the University of Vienna, he’s the first Jew in the Austrian empire to go to the university, and he wants to apply them to Jewish schools. So consequently, this modern man, you can see his picture. He’s the first Jew in the Austrian empire who is now working for the Austrian state, paid by the Austrian state to supervise the German Jewish school system in Galicia.

In Galicia now. Those of you who visited Eastern Europe a lot will know that in Krakow there is a modern shul, which is there, and that’s because Krakow was under Hapsburg rule for a while. In 1787, he’s running the Jewish school system, a German school system in Galicia. 100 schools were established, including one for girls, 99 for boys, one for girls. And this is where he’s got a very autocratic personality and he tries to persuade the Galician rabbis to cooperate with him. He didn’t like the way they would, he wanted them to teach the correct Hebrew grammar. He wanted them to study and use German rather than Yiddish. He wanted the introduction of grades, so according to age and ability, and he wanted them to morally improve their students and also to prepare the students for a trade or a craft. Also, this is paternalism, benign paternalism. He set up schools for the poor. This is something that Maria Theresa, we mentioned many of the schools, William mentioned many of the schools she set up, her son did exactly the same, this is how you improve an empire. So the community rabbis now have a real problem because he has the backing of the Austrian authorities and the police. And if you do not obey, there are fines and other compulsory methods. So consequently, he is working for the state. He established a pedagogical institute in Lemberg and what he tried to do was to create local teachers who could replace traditional religious ones. You see, this is the dilemma. Obviously, can you walk both worlds? And I said this to you a few days ago, this is something I think we all try and do in our own lives today. I’m going back over, I’m going back over, look at it of nearly 300 years. The same problem. Can you walk both worlds? Before the Enlightenment, you wouldn’t have bothered. A Jew, was a Jew, was a Jew, and be pretty sure that their culture was superior, set up. Now of course you’ve got glimpses, Homberg saw it in Berlin where Moses Mendelssohn was referred to as the Jewish Socrates, he was given great honour.

And then you go back to that wonderful parable of Isaiah Berlin, imagine this people from another planet who land on planet earth and back on their own planet, they have that tradition of education. They want the outside world. And this is he’s now. But do the rabbis? Do the pious Jews go back to the crisis of modernity? Over the border when the Czars armies conquered Poland, because of course it’s completely, it’s all finished in 1815 at the Congress of Vienna, when Poland’s wiped off the map. Zalman of Liadi who created Chabad, Chokhmah, Binah, Da'atm, he wrote a letter to another rabbi where basically he said he would rather see his people be persecuted, even die under the czars because the modern world will be the end of Jews. Anyway, he actually spoke up for the abolition of the yeshiva. Now, this is really, really complicated. And I’m going to speak personally now. Some of the cleverest people I have ever met have been Yeshiva educated. Okay, they are people who in the main who’ve left the world of the yeshiva or have also entered the world of European scholarship or American scholarship. Can what may a Jew study, have we really resolved it? Think of some of these sects in Jerusalem, which Julian Barlett will be talking about later, I think in February. So you’ve got all these issues. He was ruthless in denouncing Jews who refused to submit. He castigated the rabbis, he spoke out against them. He said the Jews have a patriotic duty to the Christian state now. So that’s Homberg. He’s a firebrand. He’s working for the Austrian authorities.

He’s a modern man, but he believes he wants in irony, every one of his children converted. So what can I say about Homberg except to say that he’s the first one who really tries to break it. And what can we say about the reign of Joseph II? What can we say about the edict of toleration? Try not to use historic hindsight. This, what it did do, it opens social and secular integration. It really opens it up to the elite stratum of Jewish Viennese society. For the masses, it begins to see the disintegration of traditional cohesion, self-governing institutions. But the further east you went away from the state, they really carried on just as they did in czarist Russia. You know, who did you go to if you had a dispute? Did you go to the courts of the Hapsburgs or the courts of the czars, of the courts of the Prussians who did tend to actually, the most modern of the Jews from Eastern Europe were those who were caught up in Prussia. Look, by 1820 though in Vienna, 135 of the tolerated families, nine had been raised up to the nobility, the Rothchilds, the Rothchild. One of the Rothchilds brothers had come to Vienna, you know, the bank, and he wasn’t allowed to buy land. It was only, he had to put up at a hotel, but they made a special dispensation for him. So who was in ennobled? The Rothchild family, the Einsteins and the Escaliers who we’ve already met, Herz, Newell, Wittgenstein, the Helzberg family, the Lehman family, the Liebenberg families. Who were they? Well, they are important bankers, they are suppliers, they are monopoly holders. Then the next stratum, which is now tolerated in Vienna, they are the wholesale merchants in grain, in wool. Think of the countryside. Who do you think are the dealers? Wool and hides, manufacturing.

They set up the textile factories, silk factories, dry goods, factories in and around Vienna. They are crucial to the Viennese population. Look, we’ve got such a small number at this period of history. 1841. By 1900, the city of Vienna would’ve exploded. There’s going to be 200,000 people there and 10% of them are going to be Jewish. This is just the beginnings, but it’s going to happen very quickly. And as you all know, and we’ll be glorying in it in many ways, what a wealth of talent came to Vienna to make it probably the most exciting city in the world. Patrick and I often debate this. Where would you have- And I think William would come, well, all of my colleagues would come into this. Where would you rather be in the year 1900 between, now, let’s say between 1895 and 1914? Would you prefer to be in Paris, New York, London, Vienna, Berlin? I personally would put the clash between Paris and Vienna. But anyway, if it hadn’t been for the first World War, I am not a determinist, I believe everything would have been different. Anyway, think about these Jewish outsiders. Remember what Yuri said, Slezkine said about Jews? You know, this sort of, this mobile literate, articulate people who’d have to live off their wits for centuries. They come to the modern world. Who pioneers new methods to production and marketing? Who promotes development of industry and capital in the capital city? But of course, many of them converted, not necessarily because they were religious, but to quote the father of Felix and Fannie Mendelssohn, the son of Moses Mendelssohn. “Christianity is the religion of the civilised.” It’s like they were dazzled by the possibilities. And of course, Joseph II becomes the idol of the Maskilim. And this is a interesting quote, “In effect, they had all the duties of citizens, but no rights, but it did grant Jews the right to regard themselves as permanent residents of a country they lived in, but tolerated Jews could now live where they wanted in the city and now appear on the street before midday on Sunday and Christian holidays.” And that of course is a quote of the incredibly cynical Robert Wistrich. Now, and I’ve mentioned his book to you. I’ve been really looking around.

And if you want to read one book, it’s got to be “The Jews of Vienna in the Age of Franz Joseph.” Now, so I think we can say the betterment of the Jews was a goal of the enlightenment. It opened up incredible opportunities for the newly emerging merchant classes. And it also provided for the beginnings of a Jewish intelligentsia educated in foreign language schools and free to attend universities. And remember, this is important because the wealthy bankers, what happened to their children? They go into the liberal professions. That is such a Jewish pattern, right up to this day. The first generation strives, the second generation makes the money, the third generation goes into the liberal arts or the professions. And it’s such a Jewish pattern. Education for the sake of learning, for the sake of education, education for the sake of learning. This is from Joseph Wertheim. Joseph Von Wertheim. “Joseph the II was like the springtime that breaks the winter’s ice.” And also it begins the love affair with Bildung and Kultur. To the upper classes, it’s social and cultural opportunities beyond their wildest dreams. And if you think about success, I’ve already mentioned Fanny von Arnstein and Caecilie Eskeles with their wonderful salons. Joseph II, he used to go to visit them, you know, these incredibly beautiful wealthy Jewesses. Later on after his death at the Congress of Vienna, and I showed you a wonderful picture of the balls at Vienna. You know, all the important ministers danced in their ballrooms. Now, and it’s these women, the daughters of Daniel Itzig that bring to Vienna many of the ideas of the German enlightenment.

However, what stopped complete disintegration of the Jews of Vienna, and again, it’s somebody comes along and changes the tide of history. And that was a very interesting Danish man called Isaac Noah Mannheimer. Can we see his picture please, Judi? Yeah. He was born in 1793 and he dies in 1865. Now… He sets up a Jewish school in 1812, and he is very much responsible. He’s brought to Vienna by a wealthy merchant, and he becomes a preacher at one of the most important synagogues in Vienna. And he has the brain and by this time there’s a split between could it go the way of German Jews in reform? And he was a brilliant gifted cantor called Solomon Seltzer. And I really must ask Dennis to give a session on him to create a pleasing Vienna ritual. So he institutes the sermons being in German, he has decorum in the service. There’s choir, but it’s a Vienna ritual and it stops, if you like. It’s a modernization. I think we could call it modern Orthodox. And he does. It’s interesting because some of the lower rank, I’m not talking now about those who were in , they still want to remain Jewish. So you have characters who develop the textile industry. People like Lazar Auspitz, Michael Biedermann, Simon Von Laemel. These are the characters who make the Austrian economy boom. And what they do, the Rothchild, I think the major contribution of the Rothchild family is first of all, he creates the huge, he begins to create railway networks throughout the Hapsburg Empire. You know, those of you who travel to Vienna, it is the hub, is it not for Western, central, and eastern Europe. Whenever I used to go and teach in eastern Europe, we used used to fly to Vienna and change planes. He sets up the railway network. Later on, he is responsible for establishing the Austrian state bank. And he works very, very closely with .

Now, these people want to remain Jewish. So. Now, so you have Mannheimer who sets up schools and to a large extent, he holds it. But now I want to come on to another interesting character. Can we see his picture, please? Adolph Jellinek, yes. He, when Mannheimer dies, he becomes the most important figure in religious circles in Vienna. He comes from Moravia. He began his rabbinic career in Leipzig, but you can see he is modern, he is shaven. This is a modern man. He starts out at the Leopoldstadter Tempel, which was the largest cinema, pardon, synagogue in Vienna. And he was interesting because he very learned in Judaism. He was also interested in the history of Kabbalah, but he applies western methods of scholarship. He wrote biographies in German of important Halakhic figures. He wants his modern orthodox. He wants to modernise Judaism. In 1865, he transfers to the Seitenstetten synagogue He founded the Beit ha-Midrash Academy. He delivers hundreds of public lectures with other great scholars. He sets up an important periodical. So on one level, you have the very wealthy assimilating, you have those in the provinces fighting the rear guard, but his attitude is very different to to that of Homberg. He really wants to hold the line. He wants to be part of the Hapsburg empire. He wants Jews to be part of the Hapsburg Empire. But the same time he wants to preserve Judaism. He’s very interested in psychology. Oh, sorry, it should be 1883. And don’t forget, it coincides of course with the work of Sigmund Freud. Oh, thank you, Judi. And of course already the infant science of psychology. He married a woman called Rosalie Bettelheim. I’m just going to give you a path of the family.

So he’s the great modern Orthodox rabbi. His eldest son, George, became a professor of international law at Heidelberg. His second son, Max became a professor of philosophy at the University of Vienna and a member of the Austrian Academy of Sciences. His youngest son, Emil, became an automobile entrepreneur, think modernity. And he had a daughter whose name was Mercedes. And of course Mercedes-Benz is named for the granddaughter of Rabbi Adolf Jellinek. I thought that would be a nice little story for you. Now, one of his brothers, Herman, became involved in Hungarian national politics. And what we’re going to see happening, and this is something we’ll be talking about in more depth later on in 1848, all this education of all the minorities, it’s going to lead to revolution throughout Europe. There were 54 different revolutions in 1848. It didn’t happen in London. There was a Chartist demonstration. The great Benjamin Disraeli said, “You will never have revolution in England because of the fog.” I wonder if he is right for today? He also, remember Disraeli understood the need for social reform. He said something that I really think we should all think about. “When the cottages are restive, the stately homes should tremble.” So 1848, the revolutions, his brother Herman became involved. Remember, the family come from Bohemia, Moravia.

They moved to Hungary and he becomes, the brother becomes involved in Hungarian national politics. And after the failure of the revolution, he is executed. But one of his most famous works, the brother, was this life story of Uriel da Costa, which should also tell us something because go to Amsterdam, he was one of those Jews who was excommunicated by the Ma'Amad. So that was a brother. Another brother Moritz, he becomes an economist. Again in Budapest, he founded the Budapest Tram Company and was president of the Corn Exchange. So that was one of the families. That’s a path of one interesting family from the Hapsburg Empire. The rabbi, the modern Orthodox, one brother’s a revolutionary, another brother is an important economist. What happens to the children? What a story. I sometimes think that all these stories would make such wonderful drama. But this is one of his quotes. “The fault lies in Hasidism.” He’s worried about the Jews of Eastern Europe within the Hapsburg Empire, the further east. “The Jewish Jesusism, which for more than a century has ruled. It is responsible for the darkness in which it lies for its superstitions, fanaticism, contempt, and loathing for civilization.” Now, this is something he wrote in 1848 after the revolution. This is very important. I’m going to read very, very slowly.

“The Jews who are German by language, disposition, and outlook should remain so and prove themselves as the bearers and guardians of German Volkstum. Germandom in Austria stands first amongst all the nationalities in its education, manners, civilization, and science, and its connection to a rejuvenated German awakening to liberty. To fraternise with fanatics of Czechdom, Slavdom and Magyardom means to secede from Kultur and Bildung. The Jews of Vienna, the Jews of Germany are in love with Bildung and Kultur. The Germans in Bohemia, Moravia, Hungary, and Galicia should moreover also consider that through the fraternisation with the Israelites, they will receive a powerful increase in their national strength. And that it is in the interest of Germandom to draw the Jews into their orbit and work for their liberation with all their might. The liberty of Jews is at the same time the liberty of Germandom.” Let me repeat that. “The liberty of the Jews is at the same time the liberty of Germandom.” Remember he wrote many, many sermons. I’m going to read you a few extracts. “Ever since the reforms of Joseph II, Austrian Jewry has identified with German language and culture. We identify with the language of Herder, Kant, Humboldt, Lessing and Schiller.” And also, you’ve got to remember the fact that the German schools have been set up now, German languages schools, they’ve been set up in Budapest, in Prague, all over the empire. So consequently what it means is, who are the Jews in Budapest going to turn to? Who are the Jews in Prague are going to turn to? You know, even in Hungary, and don’t forget, in 1867, you know, there’s an uprising in 1848, 1867, there’s going to be the final Austro-Hungarian Empire created, it’s given the joint crown. But Hungarian Jewry is the largest German speaking community in Europe, German speaking Jewish community in Europe. The majority of Jews living in Western Hungary in Budapest, they went to the German University, not to the Hungarian University.

In Prague, more Jews spoke German. You know, it’s no accident. If you think about great figures that we’ll be looking at, like Kafka, like Herzl, like Max Nordau, what language did they write in? Nordau and Herzl were Hungarian, Kafka was from Prague, he was a Czech, but they worked in the German language. And probably one of the biggest problems was, of course, it’s going as Nationalisms come to the fore in the revolutions and finally are going to explode in the 19th century. What you’re going to see in Vienna is this incredible tussle. What is the core of Vienna? And the Jews are the orbiters of German culture. And yet the Germans within the empire are gradually not going to see them as German. And that’s the tragedy of the Jew, that people like Jellinek who believed in modern orthodoxy, he believed you could walk the tight rope. He really threw the schools through the works of the other rabbis financed by some of the merchant class. They did hold the line. But what we’re going to see so many, there’s going to be a terrible tragedy of Viennese Jewry. This is way before the Shoah.

The tragedy is that they were so desperate to belong. And yet the rise of nationalisms within the empire, which is going to lead to the rise of German nationalism in Austria. Think about it, after Bismarck unifies Germany in 1871, what about the Austrian Germans? Do they want to be part, this is the rise of racial theory, do they want to be part of an empire which is full of Slavs, which is full of Hungarians, which is full of Czechs? No, they want to ally with Germany, they want Anschluss. And what is fascinating is in 1919 after the collapse of the Hapsburg Empire, the Austrians begged for Anschluss with , a tiny little German Austria of 7 million people. They begged for Anschluss with Germany. They said, we have a president six months in Vienna, six months in Germany. The allies wouldn’t have it. In 1938, Adolph Hitler went home. I think I shall stop there and let’s have a look at some of the questions.

Q&A and Comments:

Oh goodness, we’ve got some, we’ve got some interesting questions on the weather. There’s rain. Oh, Wendy wishing you better. Clearing up snow in Toronto.

Oh, Sheila appreciated the maps. My mother came from a place called Malopolskie, little Poland.

Q: Was that Galicia?

A: I’d have to look that up for you. I have to look that up for you, Mitsy.

Was her husband, Pamela, was the husband of the ruler of Herz. It’s a bit confusing. Okay, Maria Theresa was the empress of Austria. She married a Duke of Lorraine, by whom she had a huge number of children. She was the monarch, he wasn’t. But the post of Holy Roman emperor, Holy Roman empire is fascinating. It was set up by a very weak pope in 1800. He chose the strongest king on the block Charlemagne. It was a way of the Catholic church making sure they had a strong king to support them. And so, but a woman could not be holy Roman emperor. By this time, it was always the Hapsburgs so her husband is the Hapsburg, his holy Roman.

Why were the Ottomans concerned about the Jews?

Good question, Valerie. Because the Ottomans at this period were far more liberal in their attitude to Jews. You know, we have begun to look at the Ottoman Empire, but we’re doing a lot more on it as wend our way through Jewish history. Look, it’s fascinating. Islam, there is no problem for a Jew to live under Islam. You can become a grand vizier. You can do what you like, provided you accept the superiority of Islam.

Q: Can there ever be a non-Muslim state in an area that is Dar al-Islam?

A: That’s for you to puzzle.

Q: Would I repeat the name of her fiance?

A: Simon Fells. I looked at him before.

Q: What is the name of Shlomo Aviner’s book?

A: I’ll have to check that.

Oh, this is from David. My grandfather was born, was born in Krakow. H knew only German and knew no Yiddish. Yes, it was far more modern. In fact, I can tell you a wonderful story. My friend , his mother, his family came from Krakow, and his mother, he came to London in 1938 ‘cause of the numerous classes, the Jagiellonian. And he, at the end of the war, he found his, thank God his mother survived the war. And he said she survived for three reasons. Number one, there was a righteous gentile. Number two, she had perfect German. And what was the third? And the other one was that she was very pretty. She was in hiding, but she was betrayed and she was hauled into Gestapo headquarters. And for some reason she started talking about Herder. And the Nazi officer said, this woman can’t be a Jew. She’s talking about Herder. And always said, the fact that he talked about Herder means that, you know, only a Jew living in Krakow would know about Herder. So she was born in 1888.

Yeah, yeah. Yes, Anita. Yeah, this is modern. That’s why you have that big modern temple. But of course it does go back to Poland. Galitzyaner. Oh yeah, it’s, Barrington, it’s to do with the way they pronounce Yiddish. It’s the infighting between the Litvaks, the Galitzyaners, the Romanians. They all had a different version of Yiddish. Yiddish humour. And also the stories, the Galitzyaners are this, those from Odessa are the worst, I believe. No, I’ve never known that. I’ve never heard Disraeli described as a Galitzyaner. Though he was a survivor. Many people have described him as many things. Gladston. What Gladston described him of, I cannot repeat on air.

Yes, that’s right, Joseph. No, no, you, no, you could use Hebrew. It was Yiddish that was banned. You could use, but he wanted German in documents. That’s the point, the state could control. He doesn’t want German necessarily in the prayer book. Although there were many translations. Ironically, later on in his reign, it’s a response. Yiddish Hebrew literature does develop amongst the Maskilim. No, Ilana, it’s not him. The Israeli national, that was, oh goodness, I’ll remember his name. Jonathan Herz used to come to classes. He was an interesting man. He lived in Palestine. The man, when it was on under British rule, that’s why I’m calling it Palestine.

Q: Lawrence Oliphant’s secretary was the man who wrote the words of the Hatikvah. His name was Herz. Was it Herz Homberg?

A: Have to check that out.

Rebecca, I grew up in Vienna. Never understood how Joseph and Maria Theresa granted them total freedom. The psychology of the two is fascinating. They didn’t grant them total freedom. I think it is fascinating, Rebecca. But what happens is they are useful to the state and they are monarchs, they see themselves as figures of the enlightenment, particularly Joseph II. And of course the psychology is fascinating. What I find even more fascinating is the psychology of the Jews who so fall in love with German culture. I think one of the problems, they looked at the high world of German culture and as to quote a friend of mine, “They didn’t notice the pig farmers of Bavaria.” They really believed in, that’s what the Germany, German culture, the culture of Vienna, the German culture, even Herzl. Herzl fell in love with it. Herzl’s road design-ism is very complicated.

What was the patch on the label of ? You know, I didn’t notice. Trudy, I think you left off a zero in 19. The total population, no, the population, Robert, the population of Vienna was 2 million. The Jewish population was 200,000. I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear. You see, because everybody came to the big city from all over the empire, not just Jews. So the capital explodes, but, so 200,000 Jews out of 2 million in the capital. That’s why Vienna was such an exciting place. You know, everybody came to the city and that’s why it’s such a complicated city because on one level it’s every aspect of the modern world and it’s going to become even more so after the first World War. Yet, it’s the dark forces as well. And I’m going to be spending quite a lot of time on that. So thank you for that, Robert. Naftali Herz. But I love this, I love you. There’s always somebody who knows the answer, thank you.

During Maria Theresa’s reign. Oh, I can’t remember offhand the population of Prague. I’ll be looking at it when I look at Prague. It was quite an, well, about a thousand. But the point is it was bigger than Vienna. They just moved off and then they went back when they could. You see, that was the Jewish story. We lived where we can live, where we can make a living and then we move on. That’s one of the reasons that many of the historians, social scientists, they say that’s why you have such an incredible Jewish success story because we are so used to being fluid and mobile.

Q: Can you contrast the difference between modern orthodoxy and the reform movement in Germany?

A: Not in five minutes. It’s a very important question and I think I will be discussing it with my colleagues. I think Jeremy Rosen and Dennis will be far better equipped to discuss it with you. Modern orthodoxy is very small in Britain. It’s quite big in America. It says that you can be a modern person, but still an or orthopraxic Jew. Reform. Also you can be a religious Jew. Let’s be careful here, but you’ve accommodated the modern world. There are so many different gradations of being a Jew these days.

Q: How does Rabbi Hirsch…

A: Which Rabbi Hirsch are we talking about? Which Rabbi Hirsch are we talking about? Can you give me a clue on that? Subsequent generation.

How come Hitler allowed the ? I don’t suppose he even knew. It’s so sad, isn’t it? F

amous film about the failure of the revolution in Hungary, “the Round-Up.”

Adrian, I’m talking about the 1848 revolution. Was it about that or was it about the revolution at the end of the first World War? How is Uriel da Costa? He wrote a biography of him. It’s interesting, he interested him. 1848, oh, that is very interesting. Or Maten, I don’t know about that. I’ll make a note. Thank you, Adrian. I don’t know the answer to that. It’s possible.

This is Leslie. John Adams said something like, “I must study politics and war that my son may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music and architecture.” What a beautiful quotation, Leslie. Thank you.

Oh, Otto Jelinek born 1940, Prague, escaped to Canada become a successful figure skater, then a politician. Thank you, that’s fantastic.

Oh, yes. Didn’t I, Michael, I’m sorry, I only mentioned those of Joseph II. Sorry.

Q: I love this from Paula. When I asked my parents if they were from Poland or Russia, the answer would depended on the day of the week. My dad said he was a Litvak. Where would that have been?

A: That would’ve been Lithuania. That’s where most of the South Africans come from. But the borders of Lithuania also change. Look, at some stage, we will go through all the maps of this area 'cause it’s very important. Hugo Grinnell, he said he changed countries five times before he was 10. He didn’t, he stayed in the same village because this was during the first war.

Q: Where did of Poland sit in the Jewish education system?

A: Huge question. Answer it when we talk about Poland.

Yes, Maria, you are mentioning “Sunshine” by Szabo. Yes, it’s a very good film. I think it’s available if you go into Prime, what I do is I go to Prime and I put in Jewish films. “Sunshine” is the story of, it is set in Hungary and it’s the story of three, of Jewish family from generation to generation to generation. It’s a bit like what Tom Stoppard has done with “Leopoldstadt.” Yes, following the partition.

Yes, Pauline. Lesser Poland becomes part of the kingdom of Galicia, which is now part of the Hapsburg Empire. But it’s later going to go back to Poland. You see that’s the problem of Jewish identity.

Oh, Maria, I’m a younger cousin to Shlomo Aviner. That’s .

Yes, Barry. I have heard of Slonim and that is in Poland proper. In fact, I’d been to Slonim. Ad Hindis talking about Jellinek, who immigrated to related to Jellinek, came from Prague.

Q: Is it correct that in the 1800s, the Jews of Vienna were restricted having anyone trial to be married?

A: So many fled. It was certainly true of the Jews of Berlin, but it changes in 1812.

Yes, Maria Antoinette was Maria Theresa’s daughter. Yes. The French revolution’s going to change everything.

This is from Roberta. My late grandfather, Isaac Halpin was part of the beit din in Chernivtsi, originally Bukovina in the 1920s. Yeah. Isn’t it fascinating how so many of us on this Zoom have families all over the worlds? How the diasporas, you know, not only do we have the terrible tragedy of the Shoah, but really how the diasporas changed and it’s America really the two, it’s Israel, America and everybody else, it’s changed so much.

Q: Galitzyaner is an adjective to describe someone who’s a bit quirky, liked Disraeli. Was he quirky?

A: He was so much more. Naftali Herz Homberg, yeah. He’s reputed to have an affair with Oliphant’s wife. Those of you who love the byways of history, I love that. Slonim is in Belarus. I believe it is now. My problem is I’ve taught in all these places, I’ve had a meshugganah life. I used to teach Jewish history, believe it or not, for the task force, you know, the IHRA as it is, we used to run seminars all over Eastern Europe. Yes. Yes.

Q: Can I tell you more about Mercedes?

A: Not at the moment, but I will.

My grandfather Michael, who I’m named after, came from Galicia and have a Bible, which is in Hebrew with German translation. That’s interesting, Michael, because my friend Jack Kagan, who came from Novogrudok in deep Belarus, he had a Bible that was also translated in German. So it is entering, it is entering. I love it, the fact that you all know so much. Stanislaus. German refugees in England used to say in Berlin.

Oh, this is from Judith. My grandfather Heinrich came from Berndorf in Lower Austria. He had a library with the works of Sheila, Herder, and Shakespeare. He spoke no Yiddish. My mother used to say frommen no good, he had an iron cross from World War I and saw himself as an Austrian patriot. Oh, Judith. It is so, so sad. You see, this is, look, this is yetenek. You know, they wanted to be German. Look, at this stage, can you blame them? It must have dazzled them. Look, you’ve got this tradition of learning and explodes into Kultur. I mean, my friend Anita, when she teaches on Zoom, mainly schools in Germany, she shouts at the kids because they don’t know their Herder. Samson Raphael Hirsch. That’s another story all together. Oh, I love it.

This is from Sam. I was taught that one of the differences between Galitzyaners and Litvaks is whether they like their gefilte fish sweet or savoury. And you can have a war over that, couldn’t you?

This is from Jonathan. My grandfather came from a town on the Russian border, which kept changing hands. He said he found the Russian winters harsher than the Polish. Don’t you just love Jewish irony? And that’s why I will never forgive Corbin when he said, “We don’t get irony. I think we are the people of irony.” Herzl upon returning to Vienna from Paris, was greeted by an outbreak of anti-Semitism, which the historian Derek Penslar suggests was very impactful. Yes. We’ll be covering all this in a lot of detail, I promise.

Q: Do I do any lectures on the Jews from Ukrainian, Odessa and the pogroms?

A: Yeah, look, Kathy, what we’re doing at the moment, as you know, we embarked on the Hapsburg empire probably right up to and then the core programme, which is basically William, myself and Patrick and David, all the other lectures, some, you know, we bring in all sorts of other people to enrich your learning. But that’s the core. And we are discussing with Wendy what will be the core. I mean, there is a, I think there would be a good point to go back to Eastern Europe. There’s a lot that we covered some, but there’s a lot more that we could cover. And I think as presumably, I might be wrong, but my hunch would be that something like 50% of you, no, what am we talking about? Two-thirds of you would’ve come from Eastern, your families would’ve come from Eastern Europe. So.

Oh, yes, this is from Ron. Website Justwatch.com is excellent at indicating where movies can be watched. Slonim is in Belarus, not Poland. Yeah, we all used to be under Russian rule, you see, that’s the point. You haven’t said a word about the fear the rulers had regarding the Americans shedding the British monarchy. No, I haven’t. I’m leaving that side of history, mainly to William. We’ve done some divisions here because there’s so much information and we’re trying to make it palatable so we are kind of dividing up, and I think we get it about 70% right. This is an area that I think if we decide to do France, there’s going to be a lot on the French Revolution and of course the impact of the American Revolution. Think about it, it had a huge impact on Europe and on America, of course.

Q: Will I do a talk on Disraeli?

A: I’ve done three talks on Disraeli. I will have to ask my colleagues whether they would allow me to again. I kind of get rather passionate about him.

I’ll tell you something very naughty. I went to his tomb in Beaconsfield with my daughters 'cause he’s buried next to his wife and a woman called Mrs. Bridges Williams, who was also Jewish, and she left him a lot of money, provided he’d be buried next to her. And basically he’s buried in the graveyard in Hughenden where he of course would read the sermon, and we said Kaddish for him because, anyway.

Oh, yes, a good book is “The Golden Tradition” by Lucy Dawidowicz. Brilliant.

Q: This is from Jack. My mother came from and my mother from Belarus. Do I know if they exist today?

A: What I do have, because when I used to teach in a classroom, I could put up a very detailed map of this area. I think how I’m going to translate this onto the screen, I don’t know. It’s not a bad idea to go on the net and see if you can find them. And also there are some very good genealogists. And I know Arlene is one and she’s on this programme. I think you should have a look at genealogy sites.

Oh, yes. Philippe Sands in his book “East West Street” talks about his family’s hometown Lviv changing hands three times in year. Yes, of course. And we’ll be inviting Philippe on again. I didn’t hear the Ephrussi family. No, I’ve left some out and of course we’ve already cross-referenced them in other ways. I found, this is from Bernard, I found Sander Gilman’s “Jewish Self-Hatred” impossible to read. Is there a simpler book on this subject? Bernard, leave that with me.

This is from Linda. My father was born in Brody, Galicia, excellent secondary school not permitted for tertiary. So went to Prague where there was a quota for Jews and he could study medicine in German. Yeah, my mother too. You see, this is so evocative. Was Ukraine ever part of eastern Europe? Yes, of course it was.

Q: Ukraine, it’s interesting because it’s in the news today. Ukraine means borderland. In the 1500s, who was there?

A: It was runaway, serfs, Tatars, all sorts of renegades and it was conquered by the Pols who already the combined kingdom of Poland Lithuania, it was annexed, it was parcelled up and that’s how it becomes part of Poland and Lithuania. It was then, 1648 there was a revolution, Bogdan Khmelnytsky. The Cossack went on the rampage. Murder, murder, murder. Something like a hundred thousand Jews murdered. You know, I’m now going to ask a very naughty question.

Q: Is there such a thing as Ukrainian identity?

A: The Jews, the forget the Jews, the people in Eastern Ukraine speak Russian. The people in Western and they are Russian Orthodox in the main, the people in the west are Catholic and have affinity with Poland. It’s complicated.

I think we ought to stop there, don’t you, Judi? Hello? Has Judi left me?

• [Judi] No, I’ll never leave you.

• [Wendy] Bye Trudi, thanks, Trudi.

• I think that’s enough, anyway, I think we should say good evening. And on Thursday, am I correct in thinking that lecturing on Freud? Is that correct, Judi?

• [Judi] Oh, Trudy. I don’t have that in front of me. But I’m sure that it’s correct. Wendy, you have it in front of you?

• [Trudi] No, I haven’t. I’ll tell you why. Let me explain why I’m jumping on and I will be jumping on. But going back-

• [Judi] You are. Freud and the complexities of Jewish identity.

• Yes. And the reason we are doing it in this order is that Professor Peimer on the Saturday is going to be looking at some of his ideas. So as he was born in 1859, we thought that it’s about time. And I’m not going, I am not a psychotherapist, I’m not a psychiatrist. I need one, but I’m not one. And what I’m going to do, I’m going to give Freud back his Jewish identity. It’s very, very interesting. And as so many of them seem interested in the complexities of identity, this in a way is a continuation. You know, Freud, who comes from Moravia, his father brings him to Vienna when he is a small boy and he’s going to be swept up into all of this. So thank you, Wendy. You’ve had a lot of people wishing you better by the way.

• [Wendy] Thanks, Trudy. Thanks everyone. I have a mild dose of COVID.

• Oh bless.

• [Wendy] But I am feeling tired, to be honest.

• [Trudy] Oh darling.

• But Trudy, just to say, just with pleasure. If you’re up for talking about Disraeli again. And, you know, for those of our participants who’ve already heard Disraeli and don’t want to hear him again, they don’t need to, you know, listen.

• [Trudy] You never have to ask.

• [Wendy] I know he’s your boyfriend. I know Disraeli is your past life boyfriend.

• No, I mean, oh, you know, do you know what my rotten daughter, younger daughter says? “Mom, get used to it, he was gay.” Which is the most horrible thing she can ever say to me. No, I admit that.

• [Wendy] I think he would’ve had eyes for you. For sure.

• I don’t think so. I mean I have no, it’s quite funny. You know, you do, if you spend a lot of time in your books, you do get attached to certain figures. And I must admit. But Heiner’s coming up close second by the way. I just like these alienated, clever on the edge characters.

• [Wendy] You are a two-timer. You’re a two-timer.

• [Trudy] I know Serial monogamy.

• [Wendy] See you soon.

• [Trudy] All right, my darling. God bless.

• [Wendy] Thanks. Bye-Bye.