Professor Yedidia Stern
Israel: Domestic Update and Where to go From Here
Yedidia Stern - Israel: Domestic Update and Where to go From Here
- So one of the great privileges for me when I get to do these sessions at Lockdown is, to be honest, I get to talk to people who, you know, are really my go-tos and whose advice I seek out, and I get the privilege of an audience. So Yedidia is absolutely one of those people. And over the last few weeks, you know, Yedidia, your knowledge has really not just been important and fascinating for us, but for many key leaders in Israel. So, Yedidia Stern is the President of the Jewish People Policy Institute and a full professor in the Faculty of Law at Bar-Ilan University. He holds a doctorate in corporate law from Harvard University. Stern has served as dean of Bar-Ilan University’s Faculty of Law and as the Israel Democracy Institute’s Vice President for Research. His areas of expertise are corporate law, constitutional law, religion and state, human rights, law, and halacha, Jewish law. He’s elected and been a visiting scholar at universities abroad, including Harvard, Columbia, Brandeis, and Princeton. We won’t make you pick a favourite y video. And was a Distinguished University Professor at Monash University in Australia. Stern has served as advisor to the Knesset Constitution, Law, and Justice Committee and has participated in numerous committees and public entities. He serves on the board of multiple companies, including that of Bank Leumi, and has written over 25 books and published more than 50 researched articles in five languages. So, we couldn’t, really, ask for much more of an expert to join us today. I will apologise in advance that Yedidia’s camera is a little fuzzy. As he referenced, it’s like the state of Israel is currently feeling. So, we’re going to go with it. So Yedidia, before we, kind of, jump into the last week or two, I thought you could just take a step back for the first five minutes and share with us, you know, what the real challenge here is at play, because I think there’s a, kind of, easy naivety that this is just about judicial reform, overhaul, overreach, whatever word you would like to use, rather than, perhaps, some of the bigger challenges facing Israel today.
- Yeah, I’ll start with a personal story. You know, three months ago the reform was announced by the Justice Minister Yariv Levin. I turned to my wife, Karen. I told her, “Listen, this might lead us into a civil war.” She looked at me like I’m crazy. What is the connection? This is a legal reform. Why do you think we’ll have a civil war? And I told her, “I believe that, knowing the details "of what’s on the table, and understanding Israeli society, "this might be the tip of the iceberg "of the Israeli major cultural war.” We are experiencing this, kind of, war for a while, but this specific reform is igniting it into changing reality. And, unfortunately, I was right. And we are facing what might be, I hope not, but some, kind of, civil disorder, at least, between brothers here in Israel. It’s hard to believe that it’s happening to us. So what’s the issue? Why are people so upset on both sides? So, you may know that we have an Israel different, we call it tribes, different people with different ideas, different visions about the future of the state of Israel. And the different visions are colliding, are contradicting. You cannot, really, reconcile them. You have to choose. So, so far in Israel, people feel that the Knesset, the parliament, the Israeli parliament, is representing the popular voice, which is, in Israeli terms, more conservative, more traditional, more religious, more, I would say, national or even hyper national. While in the court in Israel today, especially in the Supreme Court, most of the justices are considered to be more liberals, in American terms. So, time after time, some of my friends are going to the ballot. They’re voting in the election.
They think the election is for right wing Israeli terms, kind of, political parties. And whenever you have a main issue of dilemma on Israeli public life, somebody goes to the court and the court decides against the popular vote in Israel because the justices are liberals in Israeli terms. So, for many, many years, and in the last decade even more so, people feel that the court is basically dictating to the people a set of values that they do not want to be subjected to. That’s one side. The other side of the dilemma, which is, today, the opposition, they say, “Well, the Knesset "may be not respecting human rights and minority rights, "and we need a strong code that will be responsible "to protect individuals and minorities against the majority "in Knesset.” And, like in America, also, in Israel, the discourse is becoming more and more populistic, less and less responsible, more and more using, you know, terms that, usually, we do not like to hear. And the debate became very, very clear to everybody. Now, when Justice Minister Levin came out with his so-called reforms, he was basically saying, “Israelis, from now on I’m going to diminish the role "of the court in Israeli life.
"And, even more, I’m going to change the DNA of the court "by pushing ahead a new norm for selecting judges in Israel "where politicians will select the judges,” and politicians, in his terms, meaning the current coalition. So, people felt, and I’m one of them, just, as you know, that I have an opinion. I’m not from the UN here. People feel that if the reform will really become law in Israel, if it will be legislated by the Knesset, minorities will not have enough protection from the majority. Now, in order to understand it, you have to realise that Israel is totally different from the US or any other country. In many countries you have many lines of defence against the majority rule. For example, you have a constitution. We do not have a constitution. You have two houses. We do not have two houses. The people in your houses are, partially, at least, independent. The Knesset, most of the members of the Knesset, basically, must vote the way the government wants them to vote because of the makeup of the political system. We do not have any outside protection from, let’s say, like, the European conventions do not apply on us, and other things. So, the bottom line is that in Israel, formally, you have three branches of government, but, practically, the legislative, the Knesset, and the government are one. So, you have only two. And the Supreme Court is protecting the people against the rule of the Knesset and the government. Bit if the reform will become a law, then the fear is that even the judiciary will not be able to protect us. That’s why I told my wife Karen three months ago, “This is going to be a very, very big deal.” And, unfortunately, that’s what we are experiencing right now.
I just want to push a little on the word minority, because there’s also concern about women’s rights in Israel and how that may manifest. Can you talk about that for a minute?
You’re right, but I want to open up. Israel is known to be a Jewish and democratic country, right? Ye, this is our definition. I would say we are also a state of all its minorities. Every Israeli can be perceived, depends how you look at it, as part of a minority. Minorities include Arabs, ultra-Orthodox, settlers, rich people, poor people, people from Mizrahi of Sephardic origin, and, as you said Carly, women! And why is that so important? Women of half of the population. So why do I consider them as a minority? Because, according to Israeli personal law, marriage and divorce law, the marriage and divorce law is run by rabbinical court in Israel. They use the Jewish system of halacha. And the Jewish system of halacha does not give, I’m saying it in the very broad terms, obviously, but does not give equal rights to women especially, for divorce. So we have many, many cases where this is harming women’s rights, and if the Knesset will be the one to decide on these issues, and the court will not be able to participate in the dilemma and find some, kind of, equilibrium, and the Knesset is ruled, right now, by the Orthodox, to some degree at least, then women rights might be infringed. It’s not only personal law. It’s also the status of women in the public space. There are many issues here. So, it’s interesting, because in Israel, you know, my daughters, I have two daughters who served in the army like every other soldier. So, in a way, the rights of women in Israel are really, really respected on some level. But when it comes to religion, then women are being pushed aside, in a way. And, obviously, the court is one responsible to protect women and other minorities in Israel. And when Levin comes with his reform, it might change the whole equilibrium against human rights. And that’s why we’re fighting.
So, and we, obviously, heard from your bio and your vast experience, this is not a new issue. And we can, you know, come to talk about some of the previous attempts to solve this. But why now? We’ve had right wing coalitions before in Israel. Why now is there a particular push around these changes?
Well, there are few answers to this, and each one of us will have to choose what they think is the real reason. So, one issue is the personal problems of our leader, Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu. You know, he’s accused in criminal court in Yerushalayim, in Jerusalem, and it is his interest to weaken the rule of law in Israel, to weaken the system, because he’s fighting against the system on a personal level. So, some people, and I’m not saying this is my opinion, I’m just giving you what people say, some people say this is behind the whole thing. He has his plan in order to rescue himself from the rule of law, and this is part of a bigger picture of fighting against the courts. That’s one explanation, but I don’t think this is a good one. You have to realise it’s deeper, and maybe Bibi’s interests are part of it, but not alone. We’re talking about an ongoing fight. And now, after so many years, the current coalition is composed from only right-wingers in Israel. All past coalitions in Israel always included some aspect of centrist parties, till now. This is the first time we say in Hebrew.
It’s a full-fledged coalition from the right-wingers and Orthodox, which is, in Israel, Orthodox in Israel, are almost always right-wingers. So, this is an opportunity to really push forward what we were looking for for years, according to this narrative. So, that’s the second thing. A third one is demography in Israel is changing. We know that the number of kids for orthodox family is, on average, is six and a half. For all Israelis it’s about three, three point one. So, with the time, the number of people who are voting for these parties is growing, and they feel more secure in pushing forward their agenda for Israeli life. So, this is also part of it. You have to add to it, Carly, what you experience, also, in the States and also in many countries in Europe, you know, the ecosystem in the media, when you hear only yourself and people like you, and it pushes everybody to be more to the extreme. So, it’s happening in Israel big time. You know, if you watch CNN, you don’t watch Fox News. We have the same, kind of, thing in Israel. And since our agenda is full with dilemmas, some of these dilemmas are existential. So, people are more vocal, more extremist. And now, the lava came out of the volcano, around this specific event.
So, obviously, since the coalition came into office and announced their desire to implement what they had said they would do, you know, if they gained power, there has been continual protests in the streets in Israel. The last protests that I remember, I think we, kind of, casually referred to as the cottage cheese riots around the cost of living. Obviously, there have been previous protests around disengagement, around the Intifada, but the scale of these protests seem unheard of, right up until, obviously, the volume of protests this weekend. You know, It’s been compared to, sort of, 7 or 8% of the population protesting. The polling I have seen is somewhat surprising as to who is protesting. It is, obviously, the left and the centre. But that there are also those who might have considered themselves right-wing voters, or those who would’ve previously voted for Likud, who are not comfortable with the current approach. How does it feel on the ground in Israel in terms of these protests? Is this as large as it may seem from afar? And who is making up the protestors?
Yeah, so, first of all, it’s interesting to notice that there is a Harvard research published about 10 years ago by two professors from Kennedy School. And they had some, kind of, empirical research about protest in democracies. And they found out what they call the 3.5% rule, which is when more than 3.5% of a population is demonstrating in a non-violent way, they usually succeed in whatever they want to achieve, 3.5%. I told this to my friends, including Harvard law professors, and then Josh Chafetz you all know, and Jesse Fried and others. I told them 3.5% They said, “No way. No way. 3.5% is nothing.” Well, Carly, you were saying 7, 8%. I think it’s only 3.5% And I can give you the numbers I know. About 2% of Israelis went to the demonstration regularly. About another 2 came to half of them. And another 4% came one time. Make the calculation. It’s about 3.5%, which is amazing, amazing! But, it is working. Now how does it feel? Let me, again, tell you a personal story, the first demonstration in Tel Aviv. I live, my family, we live in Jerusalem. The first demonstration was in Tel Aviv, in the midst of town. It was a rainy day, and I went there with my hat on because it’s rainy, and then the rain stopped. Many, many people around me, I took off my hat.
And I am religious. I have my yarmulke on. So, somebody next to me tapped on my shoulder and told me, “Thank you.” And I said, “Thank you for what?” And he told me, “Thank you for coming.” I didn’t understand. I asked him, “You also came. Why do you thank me? "I have to thank you.” So he said, “No, you have your yarmulke, your kippah on.” This was the beginning. It was one tribe coming out to the street. I was exceptional then. Now, and I’m talking 12 weeks later, 3 months, now, it’s all of Israel, not the same proportion, obviously, but everybody can come and everybody participates. Not the hard liners of the right, not the ultra-Orthodox, but otherwise, as you said, rightfully I think, Likudniks, like, members of my family who always voted Bibi, now they come to the street and demonstrate every week, at least once a week, if not more than that. The idea is that it’s not only right and left or liberals and conservatives. We are fighting over the soul of the nation. We are fighting. That’s the feeling of many people in Israel. We are fighting about the future. To some degree, people feel we’re fighting whether we will stay a democracy or, maybe, we will become a failed one, like Hungary or Poland, or other states. Now, the feeling on the street, I’m there once a week, otherwise I’m going to work. But I am there once a week, and the feeling is people are alarmed, but people are showing what I would call civil heroism. You have to realise we Israelis, we know how to fight and to be heroes in combat. Almost every Israeli is willing to risk his or her life when we talk about the war against our enemies. But we are not used to this, kind of, civil participation ongoing in a serious way, not leisurely, to come out of your home in the midst of the winter, to go in the rain, and to be there for hours and hours, on a constant ongoing event. It’s very impressive to me.
And I’m so proud. Obviously, I feel an anxiety about what’s going on, but, at the same time I’m so proud. And I am proud of two things, number one, the non-violent demonstrations of hundreds of thousands of people together, no violence. How many democracies experience such a major, major event and no violence? So far, so good, I hope it will stay this way. And the second part of my feeling of being proud is the way the police is handling it, which is, again, amazing, because the minister who’s on on top of it is Ben-Gvir, who is, you know, extremist. And this is the nice way of describing it. But the police itself is functioning flawlessly, no problem, no violence, only when it’s really needed for a specific moment. So, we’re handling the situation in a very nice way, despite the major, major unrest. And I want everybody to understand, I became personally involved with these issues of public law when I was a dean. As Carly mentioned, I was the dean of the law school in Bar-Ilan University, in Ramat Gan, next to Tel Aviv. I was younger, and the first month of my functioning as a dean, one of my students, who I didn’t know personally, but he was in my class, this is Yigal Amir, the one who assassinated Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin. He was a second year law student. And this changed my life and many other people, but also, personally, my life. And I feel that the tension now is more than the tension then. Then, I mean the 95 Oslo Accords. I was there. I was experiencing it in a very, very brutal way at the time. But now it is more dangerous. Why? Because then you have only one camp in Israel who felt under attack, the right-wingers. Now everybody feels under attack. The right-wingers are feeling that again, we voted. Again, we have a majority. And, again, we are not successful in pushing forward our agenda with these leftist demonstrations. So, everybody’s frustrated, which is, obviously, very dangerous. So, it’s feeling right now that, you know, Carly, we were put in an emergency room as a society, in an emergency room and we are bleeding. And the demonstration last week, actually, not last week, this week, the demonstration this week, we are able to stop the bleeding. But we are still in an emergency room, because we are still not having a solution, obviously.
So, not that I want to dismiss the feeling that the demonstration is what stopped it, but I want to bring up President Biden. And, you know, he has, generally, kind of, you know, kept quiet. His press said from the podium, you know, they support the discussions and they hoped for a compromise, until the last few days. And, if you think back, in the run-up to the coalition forming, the only time President Biden really expressed concern was over the appointment of the defence minister. And we know that there was strong messages coming from the US that the defence minister could not be from one of the more extremist elements in the party. And that Gallant was appointed as the, kind of, safe choice. We could have a separate conversation about Gallant’s history and, you know, some of the previous concerns that might have been part of Israeli society before his appointment. But he was seen as the safe pair of hands. And then, when the prime minister, well, although I understand he hasn’t actually technically fired Gallant yet, he told Gallant he was firing him. You know, that was the moment that the US, you know, made their feelings and their level of concern clear. There was, obviously, the remarks from Ambassador Nides, and then, in the last 72 hours, president Biden himself has made remarks. So, you know, how big a role do you think the US played in pausing the new legislation versus, perhaps, the feeling on the street?
Nobody knows the answer to this because the answer lies between the ears of Bibi Netanyahu. But, if you look at the sequence of events, I think the prime minister decided to stop the legislation before he heard Biden speaking publicly. We don’t know what he was saying to him privately. I have no idea. But, obviously, the special relationship between Israel and the US is a crucial part of Israeli security and Israeli future. And when the prime minister is behaving in a way that’s causing such a lover of Israel, President Biden, to say what he said, this is an emergency call for all of us. It’s a wake up call for all Israelis. We’re all watching it. So again, you have your crazies who say, “Who are you to tell us? Et cetera, et cetera, "It’s an internal issue, "and we don’t get orders from anybody.” But the Israeli public understands the importance, not only from a practical point of view, but also from a symbolic point of view, culturally, et cetera, et cetera, of the special ties between us. And we have shared values, and we have shared interest. And if the reform will become reality, we will not have shared values anymore. We’ll have only shared interests, and then we are like the rest of the world. There are many countries around the world where Americans share interest with, and it’s obviously a disastrous position to be in. Now, think about the irony here. When Bibi Netanyahu was elected five months ago, he was saying, “Number one on my agenda is Iran. "Number two on my agenda is peace with Saudi Arabia "and other things.” Now, whatever he did so far, this is nothing, five months, disastrous of both accounts. He cannot go to to the Emirates. He cannot come to Washington. And Israelis elect Bibi Netanyahu because he’s welcomed by everywhere in the world.
We all noticed Naftali Bennett made it to the UAE this weekend.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, the only Israeli who cannot make it now to the Emirates is the prime minister. Otherwise, everybody can just go and shop and have fun. Okay, so, and this is within five months. But to tell you the truth, if I have to put my finger on the most scary aspect of what’s going on, which might be long-term damage. I mean, the relationship with Biden and with Americans, hopefully, will be cured because it’s deep rooted, et cetera, et cetera. And I believe it can be amended. Everybody wants to amend it. But what is a real damage, maybe for a longer period of time, in a serious way, is the fact, I don’t know if you are aware of it, some important parts of Israeli army officers, including the main pilots in the Air Force, those who will be sent to risk their life in Iran, if the time will come, and we know which part of the Air force is responsible for that, they said, “All these years we respected, "the orders given to us because this was democracy. "So, even if we were ordered to do something that, "personally, we feel is not right, we did it, "because that’s the essence of democracy.” Now they say, some of them, not all of them, obviously, but some of them, a big enough group, unfortunately, they say “No, we are not willing to volunteer.” They are volunteers. We’re talking not about the professional soldiers, but those who volunteer, but they are the ones who will go in Iran, if the time will come, they say, “We refuse to go to the army to volunteer because, "if this is not democracy, why should we do that "for this state?” Now, this is crucial for the future of Israel. Because, as I started this discussion, we have so many different tribes in Israel, and every tribe has Kodesh HaKodashim, they have whatever is very, very holy of holiness for them. And if you start to play the game, “Well I do not participate if you do not do "what I think you should do,” then, you know, it will be in the future.
The religious people will say, “Our rabbis told them not to x and those and this "and the other.” It’ll be disastrous. What is so nice about us, again, personal. I have eight kids. Number six just finished. His name is Benaiah. He just finished the army. He’s centre left, like his father. And not all my kids are like me. He is. And before going to the army, he asked me, “Abba, what do you think I should do in the army?” I told him, “Do whatever you want. You can risk your life. "Obviously, this is our present, after two sudden years "without a state, you should risk your life "if you are called for the mission.” However, I told him, “Don’t go to a specific unit.” This specific unit is a unit where you rub shoulders with Arab civilians in the territories. And I felt it’s not good for his soul because he’s a sensitive, kind of, kid. And, obviously, those who are listening to us and they have kids will know the answer. Obviously, he went exactly there, because I told him not to. And when I asked him, “Benaiah, why do you do that?” He said, “Listen, Abba, somebody like me should be there. "That’s exactly what I need to do because of the way "I’m, you know, tailored.” So, he finished three and a half years of doing exactly that. And he told me, “In my unit in the last election, "I was the only one,” another friend of his, only 2 out of 35, in a specific unit, it is a very elite, specific unit, “Only two of us voted for centre left. Few voted centre. "And the majority voted for the right-wingers, including, especially, Ben-Gvir,” you know, young kids. And I asked him, “Tell me, Benaiah, was it problematic?” He said, “No, no, no, we are in the army. "It’s the army of the people. "We know each other’s view, but it’s not relevant.” What I’m telling you, Carly, right now, that this might be shaken, hopefully not broke.
As we would call it, the social contract between them, in the UK.
Yeah, the genie is out of the bottle, unfortunately. And it’ll be not easy to put it back in the bottle.
So, I want to talk about Ben-Gvir for a minute because, you know, obviously, both he and Smotrich have been, you know, the, kind of, focal point of a lot of these steps. And, you know, if we think back two, three, four years ago, to imagine they would be serving inside the coalition, it would’ve been unheard of. And 10, 15, 20 years, you know, no one would believe that this is is where we could be. Now today, the the Shin Bet announced that they had arrested two settlers for the violence and who, they believed, are an extremist threat to the state of Israel. And Ben-Gvir immediately met with the families of those two Jewish settlers. It’s not the first time he’s taken those, kinds of, meetings, you know, but going back to your point around the relationship between the tribes, but also the laws that currently exist, put the judicial reform to one side, you know, the, kind of, day-to-day laws of the country are ones that Ben-Gvir seems to be looking to flout at every opportunity, whether it’s the, kind of, extremist speech that comes out of his mouth or the associations he chooses to keep. Now, you know, what recourse might there be, and how dangerous is the, you know, the, kind of, uncorking of this genie in terms of extremist speech and approach in Israel?
Well, my estimation is that the extreme right-wingers in Israel may be about 12, 13% of the population, as of now. They’re a minority. They are growing, but not growing fast. What might be crucial, and I bring to the table a new element, is the tendency of the youngest generation, of the younger generation of ultra-Orthodox to become, also, hyper nationalist. This might be, to some degree, a threat on our democracy from this side. If this 12% will join forces with a young generation of ultra-Orthodox, we are facing a big problem here. You do not have extreme an leftist as a group in Israel, so you don’t have a real issue over there. What needs to be done is education, education, education. Right now in Israel, kids are studying in a different streams in different school system, which is, unfortunately, breeding extremism for the young generation. We need to take care of it. Let’s say, a prime minister from the centre will ask me what should be done in order to shut down the fundamentalism that’s being developed in Israel. I will tell him or her, stop financing the separate school system of the ultra-Orthodox, and put forward general education to all Israelis. You know, Carly, JPPI, where I serve, we took upon ourself the responsibility to prepare the civic studies for all kids in Israel in high schools. This is the most relevant remedy, not for the near future, but for a few years down the road, if kids who are, today, in high school, all kids, will study about democracy, not only as a procedural thing, but as a value system, if they will understand the needed share of power between majority and minority, et cetera, et cetera, this will be part of the solution. There’s no quick remedy, and we’re living in a populist time. And I know that Ben-Gvir is looking to be the next one in the head of the Likud after Bibi. That’s his ambition. That’s, I see your eyes, Carly, but that’s his, yeah, that’s his ambition. I’m not saying he will make it, but he wants to rule. Listen, look at France, okay. What’s another France? The hyper nationalists are having more than 40% already. Why do you think Israeli is safe from this? I don’t want to talk about about America.
That’s okay, I’m British, so it’s fine.
But as you say, it’s a populist movement around the world. I did see the heartwarming story of the protest this week in Bnei Brak that were welcomed with cholent. So, maybe, there is some hope, but I want to touch on the Arab population within Israel. You know, my understanding is Mansour Abbas has been coming to the demonstrations, not in a big public way, but, you know, he has been going, and that, perhaps, there is a slow uptick in the number of the Arab population coming to the protests. Are they engaged and involved?
Not in the public eye. Behind closed doors? Yes, they’re interested. They understand that they will be the victim of the reform, the obvious victim of the reform. The court will not be able to protect their rights if this will happen. So, they understand, but they don’t want to participate in a public way, in a vocal way, because they feel that the court, anyhow, is not supporting them enough, especially when you talk about the territories. They feel that the court is making kosher the Israeli rule of the territories. That’s why they don’t feel comfortable participating. You’re right, Mansour Abbas is the one, always the one, who is, I would say, courageous. He’s not the only one, but he’s, like, the leader who is courageous and understands, I think, the best interest of his people. That’s the way I look at it. Who am I to judge them? But that’s the way I look at it. I want to say to our audience, half of Israeli Arabs, and when I say Israeli Arabs, I do not talk about those who live in the territories, those who are citizens, half of them say, time after time, again, that they understand that Israel should be a Jewish democratic state, Jewish state, despite the fact that they’re a minority. All they want is equality as citizens. And that’s what’s at stake right now. Because the court is responsible for imposing equality on all of us. And without the strength of the court, I’m not sure that this will be done. But, if I want to take it for a while, Carly, to say what might happen, which is on the good side. Okay, is it okay to to be optimistic?
You an be a little positive. Don’t worry.
Exactly. That’s my nature. And I feel I am acting against my nature now. So, I would like be, again, me. Listen, a giant woke up, an Israeli giant woke up, and the name of this giant is the centre. The centre went to sleep for so many years. An extremist took over on the right and also, a little bit, to the left. The centre was involved in their careers, in the startup nation, in serving in the army, in making Israel the nicest place on earth. I don’t know if you know, my friends, but the UN comes up, every year, with the Happiness Index, International Happiness Index. Israel jumped from number 9 to number 4 only a few months ago, just before the election, number 4 out of, I think 170, countries, judging by what people say, how they feel. So, let’s not forget this. We have a good life. But since we had a good life, everyone was involved with whatever they were doing. Now the centre understands the severity of the situation, and the centre, hopefully, will not go to sleep. I’m not talking about politics. I am talking about responsibility. I’m talking about solidarity. And the centre in Israel will not need the court to save democracy. The centre will save democracy in Israel. That’s my deep belief. I spent, and, I guess, Carly, that’s why you asked me to talk to you, I spent the last two months talking to all relevant parties, and I’m encouraged. I’m encouraged when I meet, you know, the Israeli barons of high-tech. Each one of them has a billion shekels at least, if not more, in his private or her private account.
They are patriotic, Zionist, interested, not even thinking of moving out. They could easily move to the Silicon Valley. They don’t even think about it. They fight for the children on their home. And this gives me, as a regular citizen, so much hope, so much hope to see this, kind of, people. So, I believe the centre will find a way to express itself as a group in the future. And this will be some, kind of, cure for us as a society. You also mentioned the ultra-Orthodox, when the demonstration came to Bnei Brak, which is the ultra-Orthodox city neighbourhood. The ultra-Orthodox came out with cholent. You know, it’s food, feeding the demonstrators. We have basic solidarity between Jews here in Israel. It’s not a neutral country. It’s a Jewish country. We’re all going to have the Seder night, you know. Passover is coming next week. Families will sit together. I do not think there is one Israeli family that will not sit together because the other brother is voting for the wrong party. It will not happen now.
It might happen in the future. Right now, no, solidarity is still in full force in Israel. We have our disputes, and the disputes are severe.
So, I want to look ahead, and as you mentioned, you’ve been talking to many different perspectives across Israel. I know you also had a committee of fellow lawyers and experts who looked to suggest appropriate compromises or next steps. I want you to cast your mind back to 20 years ago now, to the Gavison-Medan Covenant and, you know, the proposals that were on the table then by Professor Gavison, who, unfortunately, passed away a few years ago, and about how there could be a potential to manage this Jewish and democratic state with some, kind of, constitutional reform. We, obviously, touched on your role on advising the Knesset Constitution and Law Committee. We heard from Yohanan last week who, obviously, when he was an MK, served in that committee. So, you know, there has been a committee on the table, but no progress and no real champion in, kind of, you know, the leadership in Israel. So, what could the compromise look like? Is this covenant from 20 years ago still relevant? And how does that move forward?
Well, the covenant, as you say, is a covenant. They didn’t propose a law with a reason. The reason is they knew they would not be able to pass the law knowing Israeli society. Otherwise, why covenant? Why not make it a fixed law? So, that’s number one, you know, just putting it in context. Number two, the covenant deals only with the issues of religion and state, not with the rest of it. We have many other issues as well, obviously. So, it’s limited towards this specifically. But I want to mention another, I think, much more, not important, but comprehensive, kind of, effort that happened at IDI when I was there, before Yohanan was there. The Chief Justice Meir Shamgar, who passed away years ago, was heading a group, and I was a member of this group of six or seven people. And we were deliberating for six or seven years, trying to reach a constitution by consensus. And I’ll tell you the story, it took a while, but after all these years, we came with some, kind of, a draught, which we think is a constitution. So, we ask 12 Knesset members then, including ultra-Orthodox and Arab, et cetera, to come with us for a retreat away from Jerusalem in order to try to convince them that this constitution should be enacted as a constitution for the state of Israel. So, we were there for three days. First day, we explained to them what are their suggestions on each one of the issues.
And we picked the 12 Knesset members we thought are more sophisticated, understanding, open, et cetera, et cetera. So, we took a day to explain the major issues, which was fine. Came second day, we asked them, each one of them, to say, in public, do they think that what we are suggesting as a constitution is better or worse than the current situation? Obviously, they do not like what we suggested, because it’s a compromise. But tell me, Mr. Knesset member, do you think what we are suggesting is better than the current situation? Each one of the 12 said, “Well, I don’t like what you did, obviously. "It’s not religious enough. It’s not secular enough. "It’s not right enough, et cetera. "But I agree if this will be the Israeli constitution, "it’s better than the situation is right now.” Wow, by the end of the second day, we felt we are the founding fathers of Israel, of the state. We might have an agreement. Came the third day, and this is the answer to your question, Carly, the third day. Came the third day, each one of them, they found a way, smart people, obviously, but each one of them say, “Well that’s true. It’s better than the current situation. "However, you have to realise we represent a tribe. "We represent a party. We should be reelected soon.” In Israel, it’s always soon. “The ballot is coming. "How can I agree to your proposal for compromise "when soon I need to be reelected? "No, no, no, I have to come with my flag because "et cetera, et cetera.” Each one of them say the same thing.
As they say, turkeys don’t vote for Christmas, is the American expression, or Thanksgiving.
Yeah, so, yes, so what is that point of this story? The point of the story is that on a regular day, each one of us, also, in personal life, but, surely, if you are a politician, you try to achieve the best you can achieve from your point of view, and you’ll not give up your ideology and your identity. So, compromise is not really relevant on a daily basis. That’s why we don’t have a constitution in Israel. But, sometimes, in a life of nation, that’s my point, sometimes, in the life of nation, comes what we call a constitutional moment, when you start to understand that if I’ll continue thinking about my interest and only about my values, I may be losing everything. I may be causing the state to be so unstabilized, which is dangerous for all of us. Okay, then, I may think for the big picture, for the public good, not only for my private good. Now, the question is whether, today, we’re experiencing, in Israel, a constitutional moment. Yes or no? Can we expect our politicians, from right and left, to look at the situation in a more serious way, in a more responsible way, look into the eyes of history and say, “I’ll agree to national compromise.” That’s the issue. So, over then, with the Gavison-Medan Covenant, and what we did with Chief Justice Shamgar, it wasn’t ripe. The people were not willing to look on the general good. I’m not sure if they’re willing to do it right now, though, what happened last week, this week, everything goes very fast here, what happened this week when the Histadrut, you know, the unions. As you mentioned, I’m on the board of Bank Leumi, the largest bank of Israel.
The head of the bank was sitting in the most unlikely place on earth, which is a building of the unions, sitting and clapping to the head of the unions saying, “We are going to go into strike.” And the board of directors of Bank Leumi did not convince this day, despite the fact that we had a plan, which means, and I know that half of the people who invest in Bank Leumi are the voters of the coalition. How can I go for strike? It’s against what they, apparently, want. That’s a sign for a constitutional moment. Are we going to have it here? I’m not sure. Nobody can tell you the truth, but President Herzog is trying to push forward some, kind of, general compromise, not only on the issues on the table, but larger issues. I spent the whole day today, now it’s nighttime in Israel, I spent the whole day today in the Knesset, meeting heads of, it was the heads of the parties of the opposition, trying to negotiate a major compromise. I’m not very optimistic. I’m realistic. But I think we should try to push forward a bill of rights. We do not have a Jewish state without a bill of rights. We gave the world the language of human rights. The human rights of the UN was composed by Rene Samuel Cassin, a Jewish guy who who said, “I was doing it because I’m a Jew, and in Israel, "we do not have a bill of rights.” So, we have to fix it.
So, I want to give you a chance in the last few minutes to return to your optimistic self. And, you know, I know that the revitalization of the centre has given many in Israel hope. You know, if you look at, perhaps, the performance of the Labour Party over the last three or four cycles of Israeli elections, you could worry if the left or the centre left had completely disappeared. But on the streets, you know, they are back. What do you think? Not the next, kind of, you know, month or two, but when the session restarts again, when the law comes back, is there enough strength in the civil society to keep going? You know, there is an assumption that, perhaps, Netanyahu was hoping to run the clock on the enthusiasm for democracy. What do you think the next couple of months looks like? I’m not asking for a crystal ball on, you know, the who will vote which way and which minister may threaten to resign again, et cetera, but more on the, kind of, the health and the sentiment of the Israeli population going forwards.
Listen, Netanyahu can push forward his reform because he has 64 fingers in the Knesset. I don’t think he will dare to do it now, because it is obvious that at least half of the Israelis do not agree. You have to realise. But 40% of frequent voters are saying, “We want a compromise. We’re not willing to go your way.” So, formally, he has the power, but I don’t think he will exercise it. I hope not. And I think he will not. Now, whether we are going to have a, you know, unhappy marriage with this reform, maybe. Maybe this will be the solution for the short term. For the longer term, I don’t have a crystal ball, as you said, but I anticipate that next election will happen within a year, a year and a half. The current coalition is very, very unstable. When your partner is Ben-Gvir and your other partner is Smotrich, this is unstable. And I’m not trying to be political, but I’m saying, looking at them and their ambitions, and what they’re saying, and the way they behave, it will be very hard to keep this package together. And if and when there will be an election, I believe that there’s a good chance, and this is not necessarily optimistic, just saying that the next election will be decided by the anti ultra-Orthodox sentiment in Israeli society today. This might be the issue. We didn’t go into it, Carly, this discussion, but it’s not a discussion. Many, many Israelis are afraid of what’s going on there. And this might be the ticket for victory for whoever will try to use this card. I’m not happy about it because it’s, again, a fight between brothers and I’m all against it. But, that’s my feeling. Unfortunately, it might happen. But, if you have this, kind of, election, and if the centre will go ahead with this, kind of, ticket, and will win the election, we’ll have a reversal of what we are experiencing right now. But in order to be optimistic, I want to tell you that the most centrist person in Israeli politics, and the most even person in Israeli politics, and the one who most Israelis believe he works for the general good is, Carly?
Benny Gantz?
[Yedidia Stern] Of course.
I’m glad I got the test right, whoo!
No, I was checking myself.
Yeah, that would be my assumption, yeah.
I wasn’t checking you. I was checking myself. What is optimistic, I’m not against anybody, obviously, but the fact that he’s perceived this way, and that’s why he doubled his support within the last three months, which shows the sentiment of the people. And for the first time, I think, ever, when Israelis are asked who is the best fit for the prime minister post, it is always Bibi, for the last, whatever, 25 years or so. First time, this week, number one, was Gantz, and number two was Bibi. So, those of us who are, pro-Bibi will see it as a pessimistic, kind of, message. But, for me, it’s not Bibi versus Gantz. It’s a popular sentiment that we want somebody who is perceived to be more responsible and more caring for the general good. And he represents this position right now. Disregarding the question, what you feel about his specific politics, he represents this. And perceptions are important, obviously, and this perception is gaining force in Israel in a very dramatic way. The guy is not a politician, you have to realise. He can have the talk in public, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. He’s not, whatever. But he represents some, kind of, trustworthy patriot. And Israelis are looking for this, kind of, figure to run the country. It might happen.
Yedidia, I suspect we’re going to have to repeat versions of this session, because I can see from the comments that the Lockdown University audience has enjoyed speaking with you as much as I do all the time. So, I’m afraid, I think, you’ve talked yourself into another appearance at some point soon. But, since you’re always prepared to talk to me for 1-on-1, I’m sure you don’t mind 1-on-1400, as it has been for the last hour. So, thank you. This is a very complex topic to try and tackle over the hour, and there are so many pieces and so many challenges. And, for me, personally, every time we chat, I learn and enjoy. So, I’m going to hand back over to Wendy.
Yedidia, thank you so much for a really excellent presentation. It was really thought provoking. Just one quick question. I know we’re really running out of time, but what compromises would you like to see happen? Just three or four.
There is somebody here who is a takhles oriented.
That’s your right.
I’ll give you the short version of my suggestions to Israel and the way I talk to, you know, to politicians all over the place. I think we need a reform, but the kind of reform we need is the following one: not to touch the independence of the court and the Attorney General office. We need them totally independent. Not to change the DNA of this branch. Because, as I explained, this is the only line of defence of individuals and minorities. It’s crucial. However, once it is independent and secure, then you may change the balance between the responsibility of the independent court and the responsibility of the majority in Knesset. And now you have to go into details. What does it really mean? I would take some powers of the court and give it to the Knesset, because, I think, we have to respect the popular vote. And the feeling of the people who want to go against the court is because they feel they are not respected. And I hear it, and I care about it, and we should respond. So, now you have to translate this basic idea into a specific, kind of, set of rules. And that’s what we do with the law professors. As Carly said, I put together a group of 10 law professors. Five of them are deans of law schools in Israel, different views, right, left, et cetera, et cetera. But this is our job, to make this new equilibrium, working for the Israeli people.
Thank you. Thank you very much. Good. Well, we certainly look forward to taking this forward and to hearing from you again. Thank you very, very much. Thank you Carly. That was brilliant. And thank you to all of us for joining us.