Trudy Gold
Hollywood and Leon Uris Film Exodus, Part 2

Trudy Gold - Hollywood and Leon Uris’ Film Exodus, Part 2

- Thank you very, very much, Judi, for sorting me out. And can I just say that since the last presentation on Exodus, I’ve had so many incredible emails from people whose family were involved in one way or another, and it’s so exciting for me. So please keep them coming in and we will think of what to do with sharing all this information. And something else that happened through somebody on lockdown. Jill Uris contacted me, and, of course, she was his third wife at the time when he was making QB VII, and she’s agreed to be interviewed. So this is what happens through our lockdown community. And can I also say that it’s very important to me that you do keep in touch like this because, I don’t know what it’s like in other parts of the world, but Britain is, it’s getting pretty dire and looks like we’re going back to lockdown. So this community and keeping it strong is so very, very important. Now, before I get on to Exodus, I thought I’d talk a little bit, having talked about Leon Uris. The other prime mover, of course, is Otto Preminger. So, I thought I’d talk a little bit about Otto Preminger. Deliberately, I was actually going to look at him next term. When we deal with the Hapsburg Empire, we’re going to spend three months on it, but we will also be looking at up-to-date events as well. But that’s going to be our core theme. And of course, Otto Preminger, who was born in 1905, died in 1986. He was born in the Hapsburg Empire. And the reason I’ve decided to do it now is for me, he is one of the greatest of the film directors and films I’m going to recommend, if you don’t haven’t seen them, you should watch them over lockdown.

Most of them are available either on Prime or Netflix. So I’m doing it deliberately. I’m not going too far off track, but it was him, he was in Israel. He took Ernest Gold with him, Ernest Gold didn’t have to write the score afterwards. And, of course, he won the Oscar for it. That incredibly stirring music. And Otto Preminger, he was a tough cookie, but he very much believed in his people just as he believed in fighting racial prejudice. So, I’m not going to give a detailed bio, but I really wanted to talk a little bit about his films because some of them, I think, are the greatest films that I like anyway. He was born, as I said, in a small town in what is today Ukraine, but was part of the Hapsburg Empire. He was, there were two sons, he and his brother Ingo, who also became a Hollywood man. He produced MASH. Those of you who loved that series. In World War I, of course, the whole of that area goes up in flames. Jews in the Ukraine were particularly under threat. So the family fled to Vienna, which they saw as a safe haven. His father becomes the public prosecutor, and he’s a very, very clever able man. Otto himself was enrolled in a Catholic school, so he knew the dogma. Now, he always wanted an acting career. He loved acting. He had a huge memory. He could quote whole chunks of Shakespeare, of Gerta. I mean, this was always the, what the middle Europeans had on us. They knew the languages. So it’s not just Shakespeare, it’s Gerta, it’s the classics in many different languages. And at the end of World War I, of course, Austria is completely truncated.

That Habsburg empire is over. And his father, evidently, he went for a big state job and he would only get it if he converted to Catholicism. He refused to. So he opened his own law practise and it’s in 1923 ‘cause he’s always hanging around theatres. He’s a big personality, Otto. And he meets Max Reinhardt. He was always writing to him for auditions. Look, he’s only 18 years old. His father sent him to the University of Vienna to study law. But what he really wants is an acting career. And one of the greatest impresarios ever in the world was actually Max Reinhardt, who later finished up in Hollywood. He had 31 theatres in Vienna and Berlin in the '20s. In the end, he gives up his law course, much to his father’s horror to go and work with him in his theatre. And he also is an actor. Later on, he’s going to act in Hollywood. Stalag 17 is one of the great movies. You should certainly watch, directed by Billy Wilder, who also was at the Vienna Law course and worked with Reinhardt at this time. There’s a lot of synergy. Anyway, he became very friendly with William Dieterle, who later on became a big Hollywood director. He also directed films in England. So relationships are established. He was very much working for Max Reinhardt. And he felt at this stage that he was a strong man. He wants to go out on his own. And when he was only 25, a very wealthy industrialist came to him because he’s beginning to direct a few plays and he offers him the directorship of a film called Die Grose Liebe. And it premiered in 1931. It had very, very strong reviews.

And between '31 and '35, he’s becoming a major director, both on the theatre and in cinema. And it was in April, 1935 that Hollywood sent an agent named Joseph Shank, was at the Hotel Imperial in Vienna. And what was he doing? He was looking for European talent. This is what they were all up to at the time. Look, if you think about it, Hollywood is booming. In the Depression, in the 30’s, just think about how important the cinema was to people. And they’re always on the outlook. The studios, they’re at their height. Louis B. Mayer at MGM is the highest paid executive in the whole world. And what they’re looking for is entertainment to take people’s minds off things. And he and Shank, who’s he working for? Darryl Zanuck at 20th Century, and he offered him the chance to work in Hollywood. So off he goes. I’m not going to go into the relationships because I want to talk more much more about Exodus. But the point is, his first introduction at Fox was a bit of a nightmare. But, he did. So, he breaks with Hollywood, he goes onto the New York stage and he becomes quite a successful actor. He works with Vincent Price, who later becomes a close friend of his. And it’s when William Gertz was back at running Fox, he offered him a serious contractor as a director and an actor. And this is, at the same time, he becomes very close to a woman called Tallulah Bankhead. And her father was Speaker of the House. And as a result of that friendship, he managed to get his family out of Vienna to America, beating the quota. And of course, that saved their lives. And he then begins to really work on some of the films that are going to be so important. Moon is Blue.

Problem with it, because it was about drug addiction and the Catholic League, the League for Decency was always on his back. Anatomy of a Murder touches homosexuality. Forever Amber, which is a great big romp with Linda Darnell. Whirlpool, where he works with the beautiful Gene Tierney. You’re going to see many of her often in his films. Where the Sidewalk Ends. He really specialises in film noir. And his greatest film noir was, of course, Laura. And if you haven’t seen Laura, please, in lockdown, when we’ve got time on our hands, watch some of these films. He breaks all sorts and he becomes a very important Hollywood producer. He’s a big bear of a man. He will brook no interference, but he makes Carmen Jones and Porgy & Bess using an all black cast. He will break all the taboos. He, you see in Austria and in Germany, there were no taboos about what you could or couldn’t put on the screen. But now, he’s breaking taboos against African-Americans. The Man With a Golden Arm, with Frank Sinatra. He plays a heroine addict. So, everything, everything, Bonjour Tristesse, which is a real story of a playboy and corruption. Anatomy of a Murder. Brilliant, brilliant form. And then Exodus, then he goes on to make advice and consent with Charles Norton. And I think the most important film, later film he made was Bunny Lake Is Missing. And of course, with Exodus, as a Jew, as a Jew who managed to get his family out of Germany, the story of Israel was very, very important to him. Now obviously, when we’re looking at the Hapsburgs, I will go into much more detail, but I just felt that you might want to know about some of, if you don’t know about some of these films, they are, look, my personal predilection is film noir.

And he used quite often the same act as people like Gene Tierney, Linda Darnell. They both have the same rather dark, beautiful look. Dana Andrews, Vincent Price, these were his favourite actors, but he also worked with characters like Charles Laughton, James Stewart, not many of them liked him. He was tough. But he was also an interesting actor. And usually as an actor, he played Nazis. So, he had a few marriages, he was a character. But the point is, he was there at Hollywood at what I think, was really the golden era of Hollywood. And he was very important and he brought his huge personality to bear on the creation of Exodus. And don’t forget what I also told you, he was prepared to employ Dalton Trumbo to write the screenplay, even though Trumbo was blacklisted. And he was one of the few directors who had the guts to actually break the blacklist. And now, let’s go back to the film Exodus. Now, the film is faction, what Leon Uris brilliantly did was to weave things together to create characters against the backdrop of some very serious facts. But I should point out to you that, in fact, the blowing up of the King David Hotel happens before the Exodus. And I thought what I, I know many of you know this very, very well, but I thought I should probably spend about 10 minutes, putting everything into its historic context. And of course, as you all know, and I think the film brilliantly shows this up. The British in 1945, the new labour government really devastates the Jewish world by refusing to open the gates to Palestine. Begin by far across the line from anti-Zionism to anti-Semitism. But please don’t forget that America was now the most important nation. The Jews had been working in America. I mentioned this on Tuesday to very much get America onsite. And you had a new president of America, Truman, who had a very close friend, who his business partner who was Jewish and Viceman had got to him.

And there was so much pressure what the Irgun and the Haganah were doing, and I’ll talk more about them in a minute. One of the things they were doing was funnelling the DPs out of eastern Europe where to, the American zone in Germany. At the end of the war, Germany was divided up into four zones. Russian, American, British, and French. The American Zone was by far the most lax. And in order to put pressure on the British to open the gates to Palestine, we’ve already seen how Exodus brilliantly talks about the running of the ships. There were hundreds of ships run. You’ve got to remember this, this was the main weapon of the Haganah. It got world opinion, but they were also getting refugees out of Eastern Europe. Some refugees who’d gone back home, important to remember thousands were murdered by Polish fascists or Ukrainian fascists or whatever it, and there wasn’t much work done under Stalin to root out the fascists. You know, it was all the great patriotic war and also venality, properties have been taken over. And it culminated in Eastern Europe on the 4th of July, 1946 by what? A terrible pogrom in Kielce. And it was actually a blood libel pogrom. So, that’s the backdrop. Now, meanwhile, there’s a lot of attention being given to the survivors. And in the end, Truman is persuaded to set up an Anglo-American Commission of Inquiry that decided a hundred thousand Jews should be allowed into Palestine immediately.

It’s at this stage that the British dig their heels in and they say, “This can only happen if all the Jews surrender their arms.” Now the biggest military force in Palestine was, of course, the Haganah, who Ari Ben Canaan is meant to represent. And like many members of the Haganah, he had fought for the British in Italy, but there was also the Irgun and Lehi. And you’re going to see the Irgun soon represented by the David Opatoshu figure. The Irgun is a smaller group. Now for a short period, what happens is after this, they come together to blow up all the bridges connecting Palestine with their neighbours. But then, there is the Black Sabbath. They punish the Jews of Palestine by proclaiming a curfew in Palestine. It’s happened on Saturday the 29th of June, 1946. And that is why the Irgun blow up the King David Hotel. And it led to the, for a short time you’d had the United resistance, they were all working together. And of course, in the film Exodus, the blowing up of the King David Hotel, the Haganah man, Ari Ben Canaan works with the Irgun. But it’s important to remember this was an Irgun operation. The head of the Irgun was Begin. The other group, of course, is Lehi.

And I noticed one of our participants called them the Stern Gang. I don’t even know what names to use because some are pejorative and some of you will be very pro, some of you will be very, very anti. And it’s the blowing up of the King David Hotel, which leads to a split in the armed resistance. Why? Because the Haganah realised they got so much sympathy now in the Western world, whether Truman is doing it because he really wants to help. Or if you want the more cynical view, American Jewry had been alerted to the plight and there were marches through Washington. Bevin aren’t 6 million enough. So important to remember that if you think about it, all these motives are many, many sided. So, going on, the King David Hotel is blown up. Now let’s see how it is represented in Exodus. With a very, very impassioned speech. Can we please see that? If you don’t mind, Judi. The second extra. His uncle, David Opatoshu. Thank you. Have we got problem, Judi?

• [Judi] So, what’s happening, Trudy?

• [Trudy] I think my system is still frozen.

• [Judi] Yeah. My system, let me just see. My system has frozen. Give me one sec.

• This is the joy of modern technology, isn’t it?

• [Akiva] Hi. Come in.

• This is when he reaches his uncle. If we just even have the dialogue, that’s okay.

CLIP BEGINS

• [Akiva] You must have some tea.

• Can I get a minute. What is happening is, if you remember his father, Barak Ben Canaan, his father is David Opatoshu, who is head of the Irgun, and Ari Ben has gone to see him.

• [Akiva] An act of yourself recently. This Exodus business shows in your heart you’re really in a goonist. 200 pounds of dynamite. Immediately the British draw proper conclusions. Now, it’s no accident that brings you here tonight. May I speculate?

• [Ari] Of course.

• [Akiva] The Irgun has been blowing up too many British installations. We behave rudely to our British guests. So the leading intellectuals of the Haganah after endless meetings and much debate of the glass breached the decision, correct?

• [Ari] It’s close.

• [Akiva] They say, “Send Ari Ben Canaan.” The old criminals getting soft in the head. He loves the boy and maybe Ari can stop his indelicate activities. Also correct.

• [Ari] Also. They want something more. If the United Nations votes for partition, we’ll have the whole Arab world on our backs. Not only hope then as an alliance between Irgun and Haganah.

• [Akiva] An alliance to fight. Of course. The minute Haganah adopts our policy of fighting instead of talking, an alliance between us becomes automatic.

• [Ari] Fair go to. When it comes to fighting, Haganah has lost more lives than Irgun. We fight it to defend ourselves or to capture positions that we can occupy and hold. When you attack, it just a spread terror.

• [Akiva] Your duty is done. You’ve given me the official line. What about you, Ari? Forget Haganah for one moment and tell me what you think.

• [Ari] I think these bombings and these killings hurt us with the United Nations. A year ago, we had the respect of the whole world. Now when they read about us, it’s nothing but terror and violence.

• [Akiva] It’s not the first time this happens in history. I don’t know of one nation, whether existing now or in the past that was not born in violence, terror, violence, death. They are the midwives who bring free nations into this world and compromises like the Haganah, produce only abortions.

• [Ari] Before you have a country, you have to have people. And that’s the job that we’ve done. Tens of thousands of people’s. Population. The population we’ve built is our most valid argument we have for independence. How can we ask the United Nations for a just decision? Can we keep on blowing up things like a bunch of anarchists?

• [Akiva] We’ve just used the words a just decision. May I tell you something? Firstly, justice itself is an abstraction, completely devoid of reality. Secondly, to speak of justice and Jews in the same breath, it’s a logical absurdity. Thirdly, one can argue the justice of Arab claims on Palestine justice. One can argue the justice of Jewish claims. Fourthly, no one can say the Jews have not had more than their share of injustice these past 10 years. I therefore say, fifthly, let the next injustice work against somebody else for a change.

• [Ari] You just change the subject on me. Noticed, I suppose that means more bombings and more killing.

• [Akiva] I’ll put it this way, let the National Committee keep on trying to talk the British out of Palestine. We have no objections. We will continue to bomb them out. Now tell me, how’s your mother?

• [Ari] She’s fine.

• [Akiva] And Little Jordana?

• [Ari] Little Jordana just won her second marks and chipped medal with a perna.

• [Akiva] And that young rascal, David Ben Ami. She’s still interested?

• [Ari] She can’t wait until he gets back from Cyprus.

• [Akiva] And Barak?

• His brother.

• [Akiva] Who counts my name among the dead down the Yom Kippur.

CLIP ENDS

• I think we can stop there, Judi. Thank you. Thank you. It’s a shame about me because it’s this dialogue that I really wanted you to hear between Ari Ben Canaan and his uncle David Opatoshu, who is playing the head of the Irgun, a brilliant Yiddish actor, but, of course, who is head of the Irgun at the time. It is in fact Begin. And as I said, what Leon Uris did in the book and which is in the film, which is far, it works far better dramatically, the Exodus begins it. But in fact, this is the break-in of the King Day of the Acre Jail happens before the Exodus. And then, of course, after that, I’m just going to give you some examples because I think this is very important. Those of you who are very involved in Israeli politics, this is where the divisions are drawn. To this day, the Irgunistists and, of course, under Begin, it becomes herots. And don’t forget the progression from Begin through Shamir. If you think who was head of the Lehi. To Sharon, to Nathaniel. It’s all one progression. Whereas the other progression through the Haganah, who was the official head of the issue of Bangorian. So these divisions, and it’s going to spark into a remorseless hatred over the Affair of the Altalena which we’re going to talk about next term. So basically, it’s very important. But think about the backdrop to this, which this is what I think, the film brings out so beautifully. There is a desperation. 6 million Jews have been murdered. The British want to appease the Arabs.

So they are not opening the gates to Palestine. The Haganah have worked for a while with the Irgun. The Irgun had had enough, they blow up the King David Hotel. The Lehi go even further. They actually take the war into Europe. They start blowing up British installations outside of Palestine. The British are having to set them to station more and more people there who is right, who is wrong. Now the argument that Ari Ben Canaan is giving through his mouth, he’s saying, “Look, we are getting all the publicity, we have the moral high ground now. We’re going to create our state that way.” And the David Opatoshu character is saying, “No, we have to actually take action now.” Now, ironically, can you imagine what it was like to be an Anglo Jew at that time? And I’m going to go back in a little bit. This was an article published in the Jewish Chronicle from the Anglo after the King David. “Our path is not the path of terror. When of means of defence, we attack government. When as a means of defence, they attack government instruments used to oppress us. We take strict precautions not to injure.” And they say they totally, the Jewish Chronicle totally distance itself from this statement of the Irgun. Earl Winterton, you’ve already met him before. He was the British representative at Evian. And you will remember he was a member of Parliament. And you will remember that the Evian Conference, he was the man who at the end of it, when they decided to do nothing to help Jewish refugees, this is in July, 1938. He is the man who then goes back to London and apologises to the German ambassador from Warrenville Interference in the affairs of the sovereign state.

And this is what he says, “The Jewish Chronicle has had a sympathetic stance towards the Palestinians and the newspaper should be persecuted for seditious libel.” Now, John, the former editor is dismissed because they feel he’s too pro the Palestinians and the new editor John Shaftesbury, this is what he wrote. “A tragic rift has grown between the two peoples who in partnership have been steadily creating the Jewish national home. In spite of all that has happened, in spite of the formidable errors which have been committed by both parties, we still believe in the highest Jewish and British interests are over or entwined. This is the board of deputies. They believe that the two facets of Anglo Jewry, their Jewishness and their Britishness can be combined. There’s nothing inconsistent about them. As loyal citizens of this country and as good Jews, they could proceed with the policy which brings safety to the Jewish people and add to the security and strength of Great Britain and of the British Empire. Because they believe this, they have no hesitation in declaring their complete solidarity with suffering Israel, with suffering issue and their conviction that Great Britain would appear once again as the power which understood and sympathised and wished to remove the sorrows and suffering of the Jewish people.” It does put Anglo jury in an incredibly difficult position, particularly after the Kielce pogrom. There’s headlines throughout the world.

The headline was ritual murder, unbridled savagery. There was demonstrations in Trafalgar Square about it. As I mentioned on Tuesday, Irgun and Haganah were recruiting British soldiers to go and fight just as in America, they were recruiting people. Now, it actually gets worse because after the actual blowing up of the King David, this is Shaftesbury, the new editor. “Nowhere in the world is there a kinder or more tolerant people. And despite our intercurrent of antisemitism, which we be foolish to ignore, but equally unwise to magnify, it still remains true that nowhere can Jews count more surely on civic equality and on genuine goodwill and large minded comprehension of their needs and problems. Nor has that goodwill shown itself only in the relations between British Jews and their fellow citizens. There is a long tradition of British concern for Jewish minorities wherever they might be.” Even the Manchester, the Manchester guardian was probably the most pro of the British press. And it actually said, “Even though it happened, and they said it was disgusting, they go on to say those despairing and desperate men who believe that only by such means can the British government be forced to change its policy. This is going to, it’s not going to make any difference. And basically, they should desist from violence.” The tabloids become far worse. And one provincial headline, “Why I am now anti-Jewish.” The times again, only insensate fanaticism and the product of perverted propaganda can explain yesterday it’s outrageous at the King David in Jerusalem. Now, and, of course, this is when Irgun and Lehi take the fight abroad and they also begin blowing up more and more British soldiers in Palestine.

And the next appalling event is, of course, what then happens if to sort of pull it all together for in the end, there is the, after the breakout of Acre Jail, some of them are recaptured, three of them are actually charged with murder and they are to be executed. It’s at this stage, the Irgun kidnapped two British sergeants. And they say, “If you don’t release our people, then we will execute yours.” The British go ahead with the executions in Acre Jail. And the two British sergeants are hanged. And that’s when you start seeing riots in British cities. There were terrible riots in Liverpool. A synagogue, a wooden synagogue was burnt down. St. John’s wood synagogue in London actually had death threats. And it’s really, really getting bad. And then, you’ve got the exodus and you’ve got all the world opinion now on the side of the Jews. So, do you see what a yo-yo and what Leon Uris did brilliantly, he managed to condense the main arguments. How should, because I think after the show, and we had this discussion last week, and it’s very, very complicated because Israeli historians would say it would’ve happened anyway, most diaspora, the equation of the state. Most diaspora historians say, “No, it wouldn’t.” But the point is, whatever argument you could take, the murder of 6 million Jews and the fact that the survivors, when many of them went home, they were murdered or they couldn’t retake their property.

There was most terrible antisemitism. It’s not easy to get into Britain. It’s not easy to get into America. Israel wants them, the nation. You are a nation. And it again, re-determines what it means to be a Jew. The Nazis said, “You are a race.” The British said, “You are a religion.” I don’t quite know what the Americans say today. I used to believe that America was very much a pluralist country. Italian-Americans, Irish-American, African-Americans, American-Jews. You’ll have to tell me whether that’s, you know. That’s when I studied sociology, we talked about the pluralism of American society. But do you see the matter? But as far as the Jews of Palestine concerned, whether they’re Haganah, ala character of Ari Ben Canaan who will fight, but they will also want to be aware of. They’re very aware of world opinion and they want propaganda. And what is true, when the Exodus did doc in Heifer, the British had already handed the problem over to the United Nations. Basically, the Irgun always said it was because they were blowing the British up and having fought a war for six years. And please don’t forget what’s happening all over the commonwealth and the empire. You know, one thing I will say, I don’t like to get off the fence too often, but what I find fascinating, the partition of India and Pakistan, over 2 million people were murdered in that. And yet, it’s under the carpet. Whereas the Palestine Israel issue is number one item with every cause possible.

So I’m just throwing these ideas at you, but it’s still, after the war, after the murders of the Jews, the fact that they couldn’t go back, Zionism was growing in the diaspora. And I remember, because I’ve been teaching since the 80s, just I’ve spoken to many, many students who told me just how uncomfortable it was for them to be a British Jew between 1945 and 1948. And please don’t forget, the brilliance of the Haganah was to have uncap on the dock when the Exodus landed. And when you see pictures throughout the world of Holocaust survivors, in the end being sent back to Hamburg that sent shock waves. And then, of course, the UN vote. And I pray, Judi, that the next clip works. What do you think?

• [Judi] Trudy, I’ll give it a go. I don’t know why it’s keeps freezing, but I’m going to give it a go.

• Thank you. 'Cause it’s a lovely emotional clip. I never thought. That’s the scene. You’ve got it.

CLIP BEGINS

• [Radio Announcer] Four.

• We’ve got two-thirds. I’m going to announce it!

• But we haven’t got the final vote yet.

• What’s the difference? We won!

• [Radio Announcer] The Polish People’s Republic votes.

• Although the vote is not yet complete, I can now tell you that in five months and 16 days from this moment on May 15th, 1948, the British relieve Palestine forever.

CLIP ENDS

• Can you jump it on a bit, Jud, to see if it can work.

• [David] Demonstration yet? Or was I still–

• [Judi] Sorry. Trudy, it’s frozen again. I’m just waiting to just try it again. Sorry.

• Okay. Because what happens is, of course, the crowd break into the fern, it’s very, very emotional. And that actually happened, of course.

• All right.

• Not Barak Ben Canaan. It was actually David Ben-Gurion who announced it. So, this is the partition agreement, which most Jews in the free world were glued to the radio and they needed a two-thirds majority. And this was, as we discussed last week, this was the last time that America and Russia voted on the same issue. And that’s another issue. If you think about it, about whether, if it hadn’t happened in 1947, November the 29th, '47, the whole Cold War is hotting up. Push it along. It’s a shame, Jud.

• [Radio Announcer] Four.

• See if you can go beyond it so we can get to the crowd scene, which is so emotional. So, the two-thirds, it reaches at Poland, which is, of course, very, very interesting. The all of America’s allies go, all of Russia’s allies, all Russia’s satellites vote for partition. And of course, Britain abstains. And the British were very, yeah, they hoped that the whole issue would be handed back to them. And of course, but going back to so 19, what happens the day after the declaration? I’m back to history now and it’s going to kind of work in the film. What happens the day after the Declaration of Independence, Palestine is invaded by an army of Arab irregulars. And what happens in the film, and this is one of the other issues, Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem, who had sat out the war with Hitler, he’s still officially head of the Palestinian Arabs. He is not allowed back into Palestine.

But the other thing that happens is that a lot of Nazis, about 5,000 of them, are going to gradually make their way to the Arab countries. And it’s a very, very difficult situation because could there have been peace at this period? The point was the one bit of yeast that kept all those countries together, because if you think about it, you had Farouk in Egypt, the corrupt King Farouk, you had Idris, the monarchy in Libya, you had the Saud Dynasty, you had Abdullah in Jordan and the Mufti, they all hated each other, particularly the Mufti. And the situation amongst the Arabs is going to get far worse. Why? Because as the Arab regimes fall, and in Egypt, of course, Farouk is going to be finally replaced by NASA. The monarchy is going to fall in Iraq, although the family is going to stay in power in Jordan, are you with me on this? I know many of you have studied this for a long time. So can you imagine all the relationships, it was the the Saudi Arabian dynasty that destroyed the family of the King of Iraq and the King of Jordan and the King of Jordan isn’t. And the King of Iraq is now destroyed by the rebels in 1958, Saddam Hussein. Now, what is the one unifying factor that can keep them all together? It’s hatred of Israel. And what happens, particularly after NASA comes to power in Egypt and later on in 1958, he’s going to create the United Arab Republic. What comes together is he opens up to all these Nazis and the man who becomes head of propaganda for NASA brought into Egypt by Haj Amin al-Husseini, is none other, but then the head of propaganda, a man called Lis Forgerbels.

So, in the film you do see the Mufti represented, and Marius Goring, who was actually a continental Jew, he spent his time in film in the main, he did play The Scarlet Pimpernel at one stage, but he mainly played Nazis just as it Conrad Veidt. Unfortunately, he had to. He, in the film, there is a, if you will remember, there is a relationship between a good Arab play inverted commerce played by John Derek in a neighbouring village to the Moshav where the Ben Canaans live. But what happens is Ari Ben Canaan is wounded after the attack on Acre Jail. His father, his uncle dies. He goes to Gan Dafna where he is shielded by his friendly Arab. And then you see the Mufti’s men and the Nazis come in and what happens is the good Arab is murdered by the Nazis and his henchman. And the film actually ends in 1947. Now history comes together, the army of Arab irregulars historically have invaded, and it comes together with the attacking of Gan Dafna. It doesn’t end in 1948, it ends after the United Nations partition plan. They don’t take it as far as 1948. And, of course, that is when you come to the areas which are so much more troublesome, where the Irgun and particularly, the Irgun and the Lehi wanted to depopulate the so-called Jewish areas. And this is not an air, an argument I’m going to get involved in because I know that everybody’s got very strong opinions on it. But what I’m saying is the film stops at the end of 1947 and you have a very emotional clip, which I was going to try and show you because it is very much the end of the film.

Now, the importance of Exodus, the film Exodus, and I cannot overestimate the importance of that film. And I’ve had so many wonderful letters from people who told me just how excited they were to remember back. It made Zionists of so many of us. And it was, if you like, there was almost, even though it was dealing with terribly dark issues, there was a kind of innocence about it that the Jews were the good guys. And yes, we were fighting for our freedom. And yes, we were going to fight and we were going to create a different kind of world. And there was this incredible idealism. I remember in '67 when war broke out, I was one of the thousands and thousands of young people who went out to Israel. They put us on the to pick apples to allow the Israelis to go and fight for their country. But it was certainly up until that watershed of '67 and Leon Uris, he won a medal from the Israeli government, the tourism medal, because do you know how many people went to visit Israel? It’s almost like that was the lighting of the fire. And it’s left us with so many complex issues. If you think about it, and I think the film does bring it up, and I hope you, and it was a shame that the clip didn’t work, but you at least heard the debate between David Opatoshu and Paul Newman, the characters of the Irgun Man and the Haganah man.

What is the future of the Jewish people and Haganah, believing that it’s going to be publicity and the Irgun saying, “We’re going to have to fight to throw the British out of Palestine.” And to an extent, that debate still goes on. Why did the British leave Palestine? What made them leave Palestine in the end? And also, it led to such bad blood in the kinesics over so many different issues, how you deal with terror. And don’t forget also, the other important thing that is happening to the Jewish world is that Abba Kovner, the hero of the Vilna Ghetto, he has created an organisation called DIN that is staying behind in Europe to exact justice from Nazis. So it’s back to what I’ve off the motif, I often use, the Benzac Kibac Cockbert debate. Judi, let’s have one shot at getting that last excerpt.

• [Judi] Trudy, I tried. And the the PowerPoint is not responding. It just keeps crashing and that’s what’s happen. I’m just trying to find the original links that were sent on YouTube and I can probably try and play them that way.

• I’m perfectly grateful. I can talk while you tried, Judi.

• [Judi] Yeah. So let me just have a look for them.

• It’s the last eight minutes of the film I wanted to try, because going back to the film, you’ve met all the characters now. What happens is they are going to try and guard Gan Dafna, the Salmaniya character. You’ve already met him. He is the Irgunister, he is in love with the young Jewish girl. And what happens is they discover the body of Taha. He’s been murdered by the Nazi and the Arabs who are going to destroy Gan Dafna and Dov is now in Gan Dafna, helping with the fight. He’s decided he’s in love with the young girl and they’re going to be happy and they’re going to create Israel. But then she is murdered by a bunch of Arab terrorists. And what happens is the final scene is they are buried together. And Ari Ben Canaan makes the great speech about what we hope for in the future of our promised land, that we will live together in peace. And it’s very emotional and very evocative. So, I hope Judi can get that piece for us. I hope we can make films work because next week, I decided, because it’s coming up to the holidays and because things are terribly, terribly dark, I’m going to do a session on the genius or bad taste of Mel Brooks.

And whereas I can tell you the story of Exodus, there is absolutely no way I’m going to try and tell you the story of Blazing Saddles or of… Producers. And bearing in mind that I’m going to do a session on Mel Brooks. What I would love to know from you, can I get away with it? Mel Brooks will touch subjects that most people will see as almost sacred. He laughs at Nazism, he laughs at colour prejudice, he laughs at the Inquisition. And the question is, can humour, and it’s his very own blend of Anglo, of Jewish humour, not Anglo Jewish humour. Humour with full of its bitter irony, but it’s also very America. Can he get away with it? And, of course, there isn’t. He’s just written his autobiography, which is a very, very funny read by the way. So, that’s what I’m hoping to do. Any luck, Judi? Oh, Judi’s gone silent.

• [Judi] Sorry, I’m looking. I can’t. I’m just looking for the clips, Trudy, so.

• Okay.

• [Judi] Sorry. Otherwise, I can send a copy of the PowerPoint out because I know they do work.

• Yes. I would very much like you to see the last copy of the PowerPoint. If we can’t go with it, let’s have a look at the questions because I’ve have a hunch I can see loads and loads of them. I’m so sorry about this, but we are at the mercy of modern technology and I believe your cable got cut yesterday, didn’t it, Judi? Or something awful. So.

• [Judi] Yes, but that’s got nothing to do with the PowerPoint. There’s obviously a corrupt something in the file. So, bear with us.

• Okay. Shall I start answering questions while we try and get them to work, Jud, is it worth it? Yes.

Q&A and Comments:

From Hillary, “Gitacon, lots of love. My husband Steve collected survivors and got them onto the Altalena.” Wow.

This is from Judith. “When I started teaching in the mid centres, a fellow teacher and friend said, when she discovered I was British, my father was in the British army in Palestine. It’s a shame the Germans didn’t make lampshades from you lot. I was too shocked to reply.” Yes, Judith. Unfortunately, it was a terrible time, particularly after the hanging of the sergeants. It really shocked the British. You’ve got to remember from a British point of view, Britain had fought a war for a long time in it on their own. There was rations, it was very bleak in London in 1945, '46, '47, '48. And it’s, yeah, antisemitism became quite naked. What is fascinating is how the Israelis, the French and the British went in for Suez together. And that’s actually quite, there’s some very funny sides to that story because Selwyn Lloyd, who was negotiating, he actually suggested that they dropped bombs on Tel Aviv to show that the British weren’t taking sides Moshe Dayan, who was Minister of Defence, said, “No.”

Rashelle is saying she loves the theme tune. Yes. It was written as I said, by Ernest Gold, who was a Viennese Jew who went to Hollywood. There is absolutely, it’s such an extraordinary story how the middle European Jews, when they went to Hollywood, how they really changed the face of Hollywood and they enriched, I think, all our lives.

Q: Oh, did Bernstein have anything to do with the music as barrelling the opening bars of Exodus tonight? Do sound familiar?

A: Not as far as I know. It was definitely written by Ernest Gold, who also wrote the music for Judgement at Nuremberg, which is another film that you really, if you haven’t seen it, watch it.

Oh, Martin has told us he’s just bought the DVD on Amazon.

Oh, this is from Sandy. “I still get the strong feeling when I hear the music. It must have given me that inner Jewish feeling when I was young and first saw it.” Yes. It was fascinating what it did to all of us. Oh, goodness. I’m losing my thing. Yes.

Oh, this is from Malvina. “No question. Thus to say the lockdown keeps us going.” What can I tell you? I think Wendy’s done absolutely extraordinary things. It certainly keeps me going. And I think we have become a community, and I think that’s so important to so many of us. And I’ve never come across people who’ve got so many memories and why should I? Because at the moment, there are 1500 machines listening. And so, we are a community now. And because we’re international, I think that gives us another extraordinary insight. So please keep sending me the stories, we will pull them all together. Sue is telling us Exodus is available for purchase on Prime in the US.

This is from Joy. “I was in Jerusalem when the film was made. One day, there was a call out for a crowd scene at the Russian compound, no payment, but anyone who stayed to the end would receive a souvenir. I left at midnight without a souvenir.” Oh, Joy. they owe you a souvenir.

Oh, Janette is saying, “I was in love with Ari Ben Canaan and Paul Newman forever.” Yes. I’m getting this from a lot of my friends. John Marx. “I was in the British Army, in militia in 1949. Many officers been in Cyprus and boasted about Exodus and baton Jewish refugees.” Yes, John. It was a horrible, horrible time. I’ve had friends who were, I had a friend who was coming back on a troop ship in 1947, and he was beaten up because of what was going on in Palestine.

This is from Dennis, “This may be apocryphal, but was related by a friend who was living in Israel. Preminger did a take after the take of the crowd cheering the announcement of the state. Not enthusiastic enough. Now, apparently the upstart Israeli football team had just defeated a football giant for nil. An assistant took the megaphone and yelled for nil, for nil, for nil. And the resounding chair was an effective tape.” That sounds like a Jewish story to me. Maybe not. Any luck. Any luck. Come, Judi.

• [Judi] No, sorry, Trudy. So, I will send out the PowerPoint.

• Okay.

• [Judi] Anybody wants clips of the.

• Okay.

• The PowerPoint.

• So I will go on with the questions.

• [Judi] That’s fine. Okay.

• Technology has failed us. Maybe William’s right. That we can’t use technology. But I’m going to try with Mel Brooks. So, let’s go on.

“Max Reinhardt was the real life person on whom the character Max Detweiler was based in the Sound of Music.” Yes, yes. And, of course, he was involved in the creation of the Saltzburg Festival and lived in the house that was used as the von Trapp film. Yes. Our next session, next January, when we do the Hapsburgs, Patrick’s doing a whole session on the creation of the Saltzburg Festival because, of course, Max Reinhardt, and it was Hoffmans, who was the other?

It was Hoffman star was the other chap, involved in the creation. This is the book, The Secret Rose. The Secret Rose describes Jews all over Europe, getting them secretly to Israel. Yes. There are so many books on this.

What I try, look, Exodus is faction, but it’s based on fact. And the fact that Leon Uris has put it all the other way around. It works cinema, it works in terms of cinema. And I think that’s what really matters. But the message is the same. And I think that scene that I showed you. Yes. On Tuesday on the boat where he said Jews are going to fight now. And I think this was a real wake up call, two Jews living in the diaspora, who had felt so passive before. Ruth Gruber’s book.

Yes, Anna. Exodus 47 that shipped the shipment launched a nation, Melvin, “The King David operation was originally a joint Haganah Etzel. Then Ben-Gurion cancelled the operation. But according to Etzel, they didn’t receive the message.”

Melvin. It depends whose biography you’re going to read. This is the problem. There was such bad blood which came up finally in the Altalena. Remember, it goes back to the Haavara Agreement. And this is the problem. Who was telling the truth? Who knows.

And this is Marcy. “And my late father-in-law was involved in the blowing up of the King David and procuring arms for the Haganah and the Irgun.”

Pam, thank you, Pam. A compliment.

Q: This is from Rose. But I asked the question, “Apart from Bevin, who I was assume is an obvious anti-Semite, what does this terrible period speak to the Brits after the tragedy of the show?”

A: Rose, that is an incredibly important question. I’m not going to shorthand it for you, except to give you one quote of Howard Jacobson. Look, the problem is you can’t make a comment about a whole nation. People were divided. Never forget that the British did take in the kinder, though, as my friend Anita Lascoval, who said, “Why didn’t they take in the parents?” There were many righteous people. But… Howard Jacobson said his view of the liberal left is that they can’t forgive us the show. The liaison. Yes. Harvey Begin describes the details of the background of King David in his book, The Revolt. Yes, indeed. Again, this is Begin’s story. Brilliant. “The cruelty to the Jewish refugees seeking asylum in Palestine by the British was unforgivable, especially by their disgracefully antisemitic prime minister.” Well, it was Bevin who was the real antisemites. And I think the problem was that Bevin was actually surrounded by a group of people who were notoriously anti-Semitic, who had actually were amongst those who had stopped rescue of Jews in the war.

Q: “Can you expound on the debate amongst Zionists and other Jews regarding Palestine, which will incite opposition by Arab moderates?”

A: Look, today, David, we are talking about the whole issue of Palestine, which has become such and that’s something we will be dealing with. It’s too important to give you a glib answer.

This is Vicky. “Lord Winterton gave shelter to my in-laws and husband aged one when they arrived in Belgium, they lived in Euston Square. They called my husband that piteous bassoon, they had no children. When my father-in-law asked Lord Winterton to support his naturalisation, he said, you would be an asset to the country.” You see, Vicky, how complicated it is. They used to call him Wellies Winterton. He was too wet for jack boots. That’s the complication. People are multifaceted.

Now, this is from Irv, “The US is a melting pot, whereas Canada is a vertical mosaic. So, I think that Canada is pluralistic.” That’s interesting, Irv. That’s going back to the whole issue of what it means to be a Jew. And whether you can be an English Jew. What are you, a Jew first or an Englishman? Is it possible to be a an American Jew? You know, the term melting pot was coined by the great Zionist Jewish writer, Israel Zangwill. He wrote a play called The Melting Pot.

Q: Penny. “How can we excuse British sailors for their brutal behaviour to the survivors?”

A: Personally, I hope their sleep is haunted forever.

Yes. Yet this is the point. This is the point. The Jew Britain and the Jews of Palestine parted company between '45 and '48. It was very uncomfortable for Jews living in England. I’ve had many conversations. Remember, look, I was born in 1948, so, what do I know? I wasn’t there. But the point is, I taught from the 80s. So I did have a lot of students who had lived through it and I got a lot of insights from a lot of different people. My own father was in the British Army for 16 years. He was a regular. He was very, very conflicted. But I do remember, he wasn’t in the army. He got out in 1938. But I remember when I took him to Israel for the first time in 19, about 1970. By that time, he was in a wheelchair. He was a very strong, tough man and a couple of young Israeli soldiers, all brown and bronzed. And they came up to my father, my mother, and myself, and they said, “Would you like us to wheel you to the western wall?” And my father burst into tears. My father, who was the big strong soldier. And you know, so it’s so complex to be an Anglo Jew at that time. Don’t forget that the film written by Ben Hecht, that the British only put it on for three days in 1947, Ben Hecht said, “Every time British soldier is killed. I’m happy.” Ben Hecht, who was working for the Irgun, the American screenwriter. So, it was divided. “Just see the American proud boys to see if there’s anti-Semitism American in Ku Klux.” Look, anti-Semitism is a very nasty, pernicious disease. What can I say?

Rose. Oh Rose, you’re such a lovely person.

Oh, this is lovely. This is from Judith. “I remember sitting next to my father as a little girl in Blackpool listening to the vote. And his excitement remains etched in my memory.” Yes, I’ve heard this from a lot of people. Everybody was listening to that vote. And you know, there was a march in Rome to the Arch of Titus, which was really the symbol of the diaspora. And there was a march led by the chief rabbi of Rome, thousands of Jews in 1947 marching through Rome to the Arch of Titus. We’d come full circle. We have our country back.

And this is Esther. “On that day, my friends and I and my brother and cousins went on the defence. Yes, some in Israel believed that England miscalculated and was sure that the Jews were asked 'em to come back.” Yes, Esther. When they handed over the problem to the United Nations, they did believe the United Nations would give it back to them. Yes, that is certainly, there’s a lot of evidence to back that. Yes.

“It’s a shame there weren’t many more Jewish actors in the film.” But there were quite a few. I mean, are we back onto that point? Can only a Jew play a Jew? Can only a woman play a woman? Shakespeare would’ve had trouble with that. Can only an African player. An African, I don’t know the answer. I really, really don’t. Look. But, look, Paul Newman is half-Jewish. I don’t usually play count the Jew. But in Paul Newman’s case, I do, because I was in love with him from the age of 11. I’m sure there are many people listening who were women who were, were. And I told you when I interviewed Mark Regev, he actually said I became a Zionist and I wanted to be Ari Ben Canaan. Lee J. Cobb was Jewish. David Opatoshu was Jewish. I presume most of the extras were Jewish. So some of the leading characters were. So, does it matter, is my question. Helen.

• Trudy? Trudy?

• Yes?

• [Wendy] Can I just, may I jump in? Hello?

• Of course. Of course, darling. Oh, hello, Wendy. You in America?

• [Wendy] I have, yeah, I have. I’m here. I’m in New York and I just want to say thank you. I just want to say that we’re talking about infringements of rights. So, you are walking that tight rope.

• Yeah.

• Whichever way you go, whichever we’ll go, whichever which way you go. It’s a 50% and you can step to the left and it’s infringement of rights in terms of a man playing a woman or vice versa. And if you turn to the right, it’s infringement of rights. And either way, you cannot win.

• Well, one of the things, Wendy, if you remember, William’s going to give a lecture on the history of all these ideas.

• [Wendy] Yes. Now I’ve actually spoken to William and we are going to expand this. We’re going to have actually, I think not just one lecture. We need to actually. We follow through on this line of thought because this is what’s happening right now. So we need to create a discussion and a debate and a worldwide debate because we cannot ignore this. When one talks about it, one brings attention. We need to shine a light.

• Can I ask you a question, Wendy? When I look at, if we can get the clips to work, when I lecture on Mel Brooks next week.

• Yes.

• There are certain scenes that are really on the edge. Like, for example, when he plays a red, he plays a Native American.

• Right.

• Do you know the scene?

• [Wendy] Yep.

• And he comes across, it’s in Blazing Saddles where he’s mocking prejudice against African-Americans. And there’s a waggon scene and there’s a black family and they won’t allow the black family to go on the waggon train with them. So the Indians attack, so the waggon train’s going round in a circle. And this African family are going round in a circle. And then the Indians attack and Mel Brooks–

• Right.

• As a Native American, he issues, in the context, he actually comes on the screen, he looks at them and it’s the first time Yiddish is used in mainstream Hollywood. And he uses the word Schwaster, which means black, but it’s pejorative. Okay.

• Yeah.

• I’m saying it in a context.

• Yeah, yeah.

• Now, can I show that clip?

• Yeah.

• My son-in-law tells me, I mustn’t. I’ve been talking, I spoke to a couple of friends of mine who are black and they said, “Of course, you can show it.” Mel Brooks is anti-racist. I said I think–

• I like it. I’d like a discussion. We can have a discussion about that. I don’t know.

• You see, that’s what I’m saying to you.

• [Wendy] We’re not out to offend anybody at this moment in time. Everything needs to be put in a context.

• Yeah. This is the point. This is what’s so interesting as I’m choosing, 'cause I think, well, Mel Brooks, he makes fun of everything. I don’t think there’d be any problems when he mopped the Inquisition. I think everyone will go with that.

• [Wendy] Let’s have this discussion offline and it’ll be interesting to know those people who are listening to us. Those are participants. Hi, everybody. It’ll be interesting to know your view. You know, it’s almost like, the easy word is complicated.

• I’m just going on to see if anyone–

• [Wendy] We need to be respectful. We need to be respectful of everybody. And that’s–

• I agree. I agree.

• [Wendy] And that’s it.

• I agree. Yes. Oh, no. You see some people in our commenting.

• [Wendy] Okay, let’s hear what everybody has to say.

• Well, Janet is saying he was hilariously brilliant, Springtime for Hitler in Germany and they all want Mel Brooks.

• Yeah.

• And then I’ve had a question. Can you talk about Trumbo’s adaptation of Uris’s novel, and the premises action to end the blacklist? Yes. Uris’s book is even more Zionist than the film. And Trumbo was in by Otto Preminger 'cause he’s a brilliant screenwriter. But he had been blacklisted by Hollywood. And it’s very interesting because a good film was made on the blacklist by Woody Allen and it’s stars. You know how things come full circle and it’s stars Zero Mostel, who, of course, was also blacklisted and–

• [Wendy] Are you allowed to say blacklisted?

• Well, that’s an interesting time. I don’t know. Historian. In the books, it’s referred to as the blacklist.

• [Wendy] Okay, there we go. So this is a whole discussion about what we can look at.

• Let me just give you another one. I am lefthanded.

• Yeah, of course. I know.

• I’m left-handed. The symbol for left-handedness in Latin, the word is sinister. The sinister path. Shall I object to that? Now Michael is saying, “Yes. You can get away with it.” They’re saying Mel Brooks. Yes, yes, yes. Mel Brooks is one of our most brilliant comedians.

• Okay.

• Maybe we can preview the Blazing Saddles before you too. Yeah, it’s a good idea. If you can watch Mel Brooks films before the talk, it would be useful. You see, people now are, if you want me to go on, Wendy, people are now answering. Please do Mel Brooks, just read All About Me. This is his autobiography and about the subjects that were considered untouchable. I remember when I first went to see the producers, I went actually with Rabbi Rosen and a Holocaust survivor. They were absolutely horrified. That was in 1968. They thought it was totally unacceptable. That’s interesting, isn’t it?

• [Wendy] Yeah. Yeah. Well, we rule by democracy.

• But you have a thousand debt. You know that line of. Met John F. Kennedy. He was moaning. This is a potful story. He was moaning that he had a nation of, he had to govern a huge nation. And she said, “I have to govern a small nation of two and a half million prime ministers.”

• [Wendy] That’s right.

• And Angela is saying, “Mel Brooks did more for a stooki through humour. Oh, this is an interesting comment from Marty. One of the Haganah boats that brought Jews to Palestine after the war was named after my great uncle Berl Katznelson. He was a great figure. Wow. Faye. "I’ve lived here for 50 years from South Africa and find the Brits either ignorant or antisemitic.” I’m allowed to say that now.

• [Wendy] No, no, I disagree. I lived in London for 24 years. I disagree. But then that’s the beauty of life.

• Oh, boy.

• [Wendy] We can have different opinions. Yeah.

• I’ve got to read something else to you because I haven’t been able to speak. I told you, Jill Uris is listening.

Listen to this. This is from Vanessa Gold. “I am Ernest Gold’s daughter-in-law. Ernest won an Oscar for Exodus. Yes. He did come to the US from Vienna as a young man, was not actually Jewish since his mother was not Jewish. Oh. Later in life. He did identify and loves standing under the hookah at my wedding.” Oh, I do love this group, Wendy. This is. Thank you for that.

This is from Caroline. “I had a very battered paperback of Exodus. It kept me going at boarding school.”

And this is from Paula who decides on the curriculum. “You’ve all done such a wonderful job. I’ve learned so much.” It’s actually mainly Wendy and I doing what we’ve just done, arguing.

• [Wendy] And then also, we’ll decide on the curriculum and then we’ll be listening and then we get together and we say, “No, we change it again.” We’re going off on a different tangent.

• Yeah.

• So, it’s fun. It’s fun because we can pivot on a dime.

• And the other things.

• The two of us.

• We consult all of our colleagues. You know, we have a core team. Patrick, William, David, Dennis. And for certain subjects–

• Yeah.

• We bring in people like Helen and Lynn.

• [Wendy] Yeah, exactly.

• Basically we, I mean, we’ve just had the fun of putting together three months on the Habsburg Empire with lots of diversions into modern. And now Williams got all excited with Wendy about woke. So, that’s how we work.

• Well, yeah, exactly. Such conversations like these, when we’re all sitting together and things come up and themes come up and we were, I think it’s very interesting to do things that are current and dealing with current issues. But it is very, very complicated and difficult. And certainly speaking, from my position at the Guggenheim, you, one has to one, watch one’s language very, very, very carefully mean. And.

• Yeah.

• Yeah. Go on.

• Can I use the term blacklist? I’d like people to tell me, because I studied this period, remember for years, and it is referred to, in all the books, as blacklist. Now.

• But you can’t say breastfeeding. Go on. Sorry, go on, go on.

• It’s too late for that, Wendy.

• We’ve had an issue. We’ve had an issue with breastfeeding. But anyway, go on. Sorry, go back to blacklist. Sorry.

• You know, for example, in Jewish history, there’s a phenomenon known as the Salon Jewish Is, that’s what the title would be. And some students now find that pejorative. So we live in a very, we live in a world where the meaning of language is very, very, very important. And most people and language that was acceptable 20 years ago is no longer acceptable. Sentiments, which were acceptable 20 years ago, are no longer acceptable. And when I say most of the time, I agree with those sentiments. I do sometimes, and I’m going to say this, Wendy, I do sometimes think that it’s gone a little bit too far.

• [Wendy] But Trudy. Trudy, I think we’re living in a world now where there’s a lot of pain and a lot of anger and disappointment.

• Yes.

• So, you know, I think the education system needs to be reassessed. And I’ve been working on that actually.

• Yes, you are so right. But when I’m told by certain educators at universities that they’re now looking at which shapes be a play’s can be read. And whether Jane Austen is fit for the syllabus because of her attitudes.

• [Wendy] I know, it’s crazy.

• You know, I think there is a line, and I think most people of good hearts know where that line is.

• [Wendy] Who are we dealing with History. You’re dealing with history.

• Yeah. And when you teach history, I mean, for example, there’s a butte, let me give you a real butte. The way the Nazis described racial pyramid, the Aryans, the Slavs, et cetera. And they referred to the Chinese in the most pejorative way to say nothing of the black community. When I’m teaching race, race history. And let’s take eugenics, the sort of reasons given for eugenics, not just in Nazi Germany, but in the southern states and Sweden. Many countries practise eugenics. Now, do I use the language to illustrate a point and say this is in context. I don’t know. We really, that’s why I’m so glad that we have this free and open channel where people have got very interesting minds. Oh, there’s one more comment. Wendy, tell me when to shut up.

This is from Sarah. “I have a photo of my great-grandmother, my mother, and my aunt beside Exodus. My mother was one of the approximately 200 children on the Exodus. She also kept a diary with dates, which helped many need, who they were to prove who they were at a specific time.” That is amazing. Frank Helmer. “While connecting money for the Jewish Palestine appeal in 1947, as a youngster, I was accosted by a man calling out, go back to Palestine, Yid. It was only years later when I realised the irony when the cry get out of Palestine, Jews.”

Oh, that’s interesting, Frank. Is Yid a pejorative turn? Yes, it is. If it’s said by a Jew to a Jew, is it pejorative?

Oh, this is from Leonard. “I’m proud to have Begin as a relative and highly recommend the Begin Museum.” Yes.

Susan. “Ruth Gruber’s Book Haven is also a great movie.” Yes, it is.

Marilyn. “If Judi gets the PowerPoint right, can we start your next lecture with a clip?” Not really, because my next lecture is Mel Brooks, but Judi has already said she’s going to send it around. “Apple TV is screaming Blazing Saddles and the Producers.” Thank you, Goldie.

Q: “Will I plan to cover the trust customer train and trial?”

A: The problem is, Susan, I did about eight months ago for about, how many hours did we do, Wendy? I think we did about four hours on it, didn’t we?

• [Wendy] I know. I keep threatening that the website is going to go up, but it really is. We began doing the website and then I decided that I really wanted to make a very upmarket, so I had to be, so we started again and I wanted to have more. I really needed to have an excellent website. So I’m sorry it is taking time.

• Because what that means, of course, is that once the website is up, presumably, Wendy, they will have access to the.

• [Wendy] Yeah, they will. Yeah. It’s taking many hours to do it.

• Yeah.

• So. Sorry about that.

• Oh, this is another interesting comment. Sarah Manu. “I know the daughter of the girl who called the King David Hotel.” You see, a warning was given. When the Irgun placed the bombs under the King David, it was actually milk churns and they sent a warning to the British. The reason they blew up the King David was it was the military headquarters, the British in Palestine. They also sent a warning to the French embassy. And the British denied they ever received it. But the French said they did receive it.

So, this is Ellie being very controversial. I’m going to say it. “I will risk going on a political limb if not for Begin and his Jewish moral courage. Think of about Elena. We wouldn’t have the state of Israel.” Sadly, the left under Ben-Gurion was corrupt and Marxist. This is not conjecture.“ That. Ellie, may I say that is your opinion. I’m sure a lot of other people online would not take that opinion. But that is your opinion.

• [Wendy] And that’s what makes this group so interesting.

• Yeah. Exactly. My friend Ruth Landon, a historian in Tel Aviv University. "Father was one of the Jews that died in the King David.” Yes, Esther. You see, 91 people died. Not just British offs, not just the British military, but some Jews and some Arabs.

All right, this is from Mira. Oh, I love our group, Wendy. Listen to this one. “As the daughter of Eric Lichtblau Leslie, who painted caricatures right under the nose of the Nazis in the concentration camp. I believe in and you can and should use humour everywhere. My father said it helped and it’s worth it. Survive the horror. Even though he did it in great danger to get caught and executed. Google his name. It’s worth it.” Thank you so much, Mira. I mean, some of these comments are extraordinary. Romaine.

• [Wendy] What’s Mira’s father’s name? What’s Mira’s father’s name?

• His name is Eric Lichtblau Leslie. We should, she’s saying to Google it.

• [Wendy] Okay. Thank you.

• And this is from Roma. “What does that mean? They can’t forgive us the show.” I quoted a comment of our Jacobson, and you’ll be pleased to know that for Holocaust Memorial Day, Wendy asked me to sort of do something. I’m interviewing him. He’s a very brilliant British writer. And he’s probably the most sane person on the subject of antisemitism in England. And he said, one of the reason they, what does it mean they can’t forgive us the show, they felt guilty. And when you feel guilty, when people make you feel guilty, how do they act towards…

Oh, this is from Abigail. “When I was at the Yamaha show placing the wreath, I ran into an English group that actually moved to Israel to protect protests against English sins.” Yes, people are people.

This is from Marion regarding the speech that Paul Newman gave at the grave at the end of the film, which we didn’t see unfortunately. But most of you know it. “Every time I hear it, I say nothing has changed. But in fact, the conflict today is much more complicated and volatile.” Yes, of course, it is. Jonathan Ralph Richardson plays a sympathetic if ambivalent character as an English officer. Yes, he does. And in the book, he actually turns out to be of Jewish descent. So it’s more. Yes, Ralph Richardson. Yeah, there were positive Englishmen. Look, Churchill was very positive in the house. He went mad. Remember, he’s out of power in 1945. He went crazy at the way the British were behaving in Palestine. So, you’ve got to take, it’s always, I know Wendy and I often say that, but it’s often complicated. Yes. Susan is saying, Ben Hecht wrote an amazing book called Perfidy. Perfidy is an incredibly complicated book to read. It’s very pro-Irgun. And I’m just going to give you some personal information. I was with my partner for 35 years, unfortunately, he passed away. We used to have appalling lours, but they were always about history. We didn’t speak to each other for a week over Perfity. It’s incredibly complicated. Remember, Ben Hecht, the brilliance screenwriter. He was a genius, but he was very much on one side of the divide. Who is to say who was right?

This is from Meli Straus. He said, “It was based on a bias and misrepresentation and thank goodness was withdrawn. The idea of a deal with the devil is horrible. I wouldn’t be here if not for Kassler.” Do you see how complicated it is? Oh, Judi is saying she loves the discussions over the Q&A. Thank you. “Mourner of antisemitism. The world’s longest hate.” Illie.

“A British friend said to me many years ago, the Brits have always been Arabists.” There are, look, I’ve got friends on our side, who do believe in the Jewish state. It’s, as I said to you, you can’t take a whole people. Barbara.

“The late chief Rabbi Louis Rabinowitz tore off his British medals and threw them to the ground at a young personal celebration in Johannesburg to show his disgust with British attitude to Jewish refugees.” That’s interesting. I didn’t know that. I

have a friend, this is from Guy. “I have a friend who painted the signed exes on the ship. He is now an emeritus professor in Haifa.” Oh my goodness. What stories. Janet. “If most of the people watching are over 40, yes, we can understand language in its hysterical and social context. It’s the younger generation that are so woke they cannot accept even hearing certain words.” Did you hear that, Wendy?

• [Wendy] Yeah, I did. It’s a good conversation to have.

• Yes, so I think peer pressure.

• [Wendy] There’s community taking things out of context. It’s community. It’s a good discussion to have. I think we need to find the middle ground. We’re still have to be able to laugh at ourselves. We still have to be able to enjoy ourselves. We still have to have a man compliment us. You know, it’s gone beyond the pet.

• Yeah. I really think we need to watch Mel Brooks. That’s why I hope the technology works. We need to laugh. I can show you clips that aren’t so controversial. Now this is from Pauline. “African-Americans refer to each other in the most pejorative terms.” And she’s suggesting to listening to Dave Chappelle’s most recent show on Netflix.

• [Wendy] Of the Jews?

• Yes, exactly. You say, when is, as a friend of mine used to say, when is a joke a Jewish joke? And when is it a Jew joke? A Jewish joke is going to be affectionate. Oh, I must tell you, the one thing in Exodus that I did find a bit grating as a Jewish woman and mother, the stereotype of Ari Ben Canaan’s mother was pure Jewish mother fussing over food. And you know, I’ve got my own problem. I really loathe the way Jewish women are portrayed in American movies of the '56. In fact, starting with the Jazz Singer, although she was played by an Irish woman in the Jazz Singer. And you know, in Polish films, Jewish women are seductresses. Did you know that? “Use the line. Love the movie.” “Put quotes on and say, Go for it.” “With respect to Mel Brooks, I think Mel Brooks would want it this way. I don’t see any problem.” “Think fine to show the Schwartz clip.”

This is from Roberta. I don’t see any harm in it. This is interesting. “Show it, even though it’s not politically correct, it has to do with the times and what was going on.” Wendy.

• [Wendy] That’s right. Okay. So look, the thing is just everything, I do believe it’s always about the recipients and respect. And I’m not talking about the movie. We need to put it in a context. We need to put it in the, at a time and date it. And it’s a good discussion. I’m not saying don’t show it.

• Oh, there’s something. Can I quote you something from Pauline? “Can you say whitewashed?”

• [Wendy] That’s good. It’s interesting. I don’t know.

• And someone else.

• [Wendy] I do that. I have to watch my language very carefully from where I’m sitting and I’ve become aware of it. Let’s put it that way. With the younger generation, not my children so much. I actually haven’t experienced with my children. But I’m going to pay attention. I have been paying attention, I’ve been paying attention at work, but I’m going to pay attention now with the kids and their friends.

• “We must not incite race hatred, but no one has the right not to be offended.” That’s interesting.

• Most–

• Respect.

• Oh, wait a minute, this is from Maron. “I loathe Springtime for Hitler. It was disgusting in the worst possible taste.” You see, the title of the presentation next week is, Mel Brook’s. Genius or Bad Taste. I totally agree with you. When I, as I said in '68, when I went to see it with a Holocaust survivor, she was really angry. But then–

• [Wendy] I didn’t like it.

• But think how far on we’ve gone. Do you remember? Life is Beautiful, which was a film that used the show as a backdrop to comedy. You know, I have friends who say that… The show is so sacred that you should only show documentaries on it. That they shouldn’t, Schindler’s List shouldn’t have been made.

• [Wendy] But, Trudy. An interesting, I think maybe an interesting presentation just to, sorry to jump in and interrupt you, is to have a look at this sentiment when that was made and now and what’s gone on between the two. You know, the timeline, what has happened that has transformed people’s feelings. I mean, I didn’t like it myself, but I know a lot of people who did, who loved it.

• One of the things that’s coming up, Wendy, is I think it would be very important to stage debates. We’re going to have to work out the technology to do it in a proper format. It’ll be very, there’s obvious. I mean.

Oh, so this is Michael’s. He’s referring to the fact, I’m not going to use the words that Gentiles talk about Jews in a pejorative way, so we can talk about other groups.

Okay. I think this is from Mickey. “Trudy. I’m also lefthanded.”

• [Wendy] My entire family’s lefthanded.

• You know, it’s the city. And Michael says, “All lefthanders are clever.” But you know–

• Yeah. They’re smart.

• Oh, can I make one comment? I went to parliament recently and there’s a statue of Richard I outside parliament is probably the big main statue. And I don’t know if you know this, but if we’re being totally politically correct, the worst pogrom in English history was in his reign. Do I want it taken down? That’s a nice one for you to think about. It is outside the British Parliament. And also, think of the churches where you have images of Jews in stained glass windows as devils. There are loads of them in Central Europe. Are we going to suggest next the smashing of stained glass windows? I’m asking a question. I don’t know.

Oh, yes, I think we’ve agreed to do Mel Brooks. I’ve agreed to do it. How I do it, I’m going to think about all weekend. “I cannot see any value in humanising anything to do with Hitler. I’ve been, I admit to being sensitive.” Now let me explain something. Mel Brooks was with the American Liberating Army. He was once interviewed by a very, very intense Swedish filmmaker. And he said, “What’s the story of your art?” He said, “I want to tell the story of what your people did to my people through the ages.” Now some people find him incredibly offensive. Other people find, what I do think about Mel Brooks, remember, this is the man who made The Elephant Man. He’s passionate about human rights. He’s passionate about racial prejudice. The Blazing Saddles is mocking hatred of blacks. That’s what it’s all about. So, it’s complicated. Is it right to have a humorous show of the Inquisition? Come on. That was the most terrible thing. His view is that if you can’t laugh at, that’s how you win. He believes you can win through humour. I don’t know the answer. I really, really don’t.

• [Wendy] Trudy, I’m going to jump in now. I’m so sorry, but it’s, yeah. Half an hour after question time. So I just want to thank everybody for participating and for fabulous as as always presentation and we will look forward to your next presentation.

• All right. God bless and lots of love, everyone.

• [Wendy] Thank you. Thanks.

• God bless, Wendy.

• Thank you. Thank you, Lauren. Thanks. Bye bye.

• [Judi] Trudy. Thank you.

• [Trudy] Oh, Judi, thank you.

• [Judi] Hello.

• [Wendy] I thought Lauren.

• [Judi] But I have to tell you. This is the most, we had 175 questions today.

• Okay.

• That is the most we’ve had.

• Was it? Well, most of them, because I think it, we had two controversial issues, didn’t we? First of all, we had the Exodus and I think the other point about it, and you were travelling on Tuesday, but we had so many people, Wendy, who were actually involved.

• [Wendy] I know.

• Their families were involved. And I think also, when I brought up the word Mel Brooks, I think we’ve had about 50. Which is very useful for us. And I think, your ambition to make it a community, this is what makes a community.

• [Wendy] I agree. I’m sorry that I missed, I’m sorry. Well, I’ll catch up on your presentation. I connect with these two fabulous people. One is Leslee Udwin from my past, actually. She’s an actress and a director. And she’s running a programme dealing with empathy and compassion and loving class with Rabbi David Geffen. And I want to bring these two people on to lockdown.

• That’d be interesting.

• [Wendy] Very, very interesting. Because honestly, will you just see, what’s happening and the level of rage and disappointment. How careful one has to be and what one says. So, yeah. Dealing with all of that. Anyway, we do need to, Judi needs to jump off. Judi, happy, happy birthday for Charlotte. And I know it was yesterday and I know she needs to get–

• Thank you.

• [Wendy] You should need to attend to your family. So thank you to everybody.

• God bless. God bless.

• Thank you, Trudy. Take care.

• Thank you, everybody. Bye-bye.

• Bye-bye.